Bible Study Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works #1

[Born Again 2004]

I'm sorry to have offended you. It was not my intention.

Jesus disagreed with you when He specifically stated:
" … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29 (NKJV)

That is begging the question, also known as; circular reasoning.
Logical Fallacy: Begging the Question Also Known as: Circular Reasoning, Reasoning in a Circle, Petitio Principii.

Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.
1. Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).

2. Claim C (the conclusion) is true.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."

Examples of Begging the Question
1. Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."

2. "The belief in God is universal. After all, everyone believes in God."

Yes, it is by grace anyone is saved. God doesn't have to save anyone; nothing forces Him to do so, but, because He loves mankind, He saves all who will believe.
Those who believe can be identified by their actions.
"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mat 7:21 (RSV)
And Jesus will pronounce His eternal judgment based on the evidence of what each person did or did not do. (Mat 25:31-46)

There is no mention in the Bible of "works of the spirit."
Gal 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the spirit and there are gifts of the spirit listed in Romans and Corinthians.
But there are no "Works of the Spirit" mentioned in the NT.
Please explain what you mean by "works of the Spirit."
What scriptures teach about the "works of the Spirit"?

Please cite the reference to the Holy Spirit in the passage in which James stated that faith without works is dead and it cannot save anyone. (James Ch. 2)
The only use of the word "spirit" in that passage is at Jas 2:26, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (RSV) There is no way that usage could support your claim that James made reference to the Holy Spirit in that passage.
Please clarify.

Every human being has the ability to choose to obey or not to obey Jesus commands. (Love God, Love one another, love our neighbors, love our enemies) It doesn't just happen automatically because someone believed, was baptized and then received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Christian life involves constant warfare against the temptations which arise from the "lusts of the flesh" and the onslaught of the Devil. It is a life of repentance and striving for holiness.
We must daily, even minute by minute, make the choice to shun evil and serve the Lord.
That requires effort; it requires work on the part of the believer.
1Jo 1:8-10 (RSV) If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Paul shared his experience at Phl 3:8-15a (RSV)
Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Let those of us who are mature be thus minded;

have a nice day

Just too much to deal with logically; we just have to agree to disagree on many matters!

 

[JLB]

we all die a physical death unless we are raptured instantly, those will not experience death,

 

[Jim Parker]

You say true, true, true but still disagree. That is fine because none of us will never know the complete truth in this life. But, saying that, we are close but I don't I only see in a bit different: We all, just like Adam and Eve die our physical death. Some of us in the future will maybe not die exactly, at least there will be no pain, we will be changed in a blink of an eye! The dead, before those who are instantly changed will be raised first according to scripture but, beyond that we are all the same, immortal and incorruptible because be of a miracle combination of spiritual and a resurrected body. I feel that one should not make a mistake: we all die a physical death unless we are raptured instantly, those will not experience death, otherwise Jesus did not or has not saved all of mankind from physical death..."wide is the path but narrow is the gate"!

We agree. There is a physical death which is the "wages of sin" and there is a second death. after the resurrection, for those who rejected God's gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

We agree. There is a physical death which is the "wages of sin" and there is a second death. after the resurrection, for those who rejected God's gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God iseternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The wages of sin is the second death.

Paul writes this letter to Christians, warning them not live their lives as they did before Christ, gratifying the sinful desires of the flesh.

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19



The context:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that thoughyou were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members asslaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23

Verse 23 culminates in the conclusion of this matter for Christians, the wages for living a sinful life of disobedience, practicing the works of the flesh is eternal death.

Which is also said in Revelation 21:8.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”Revelation 21:8.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The wages of sin is the second death.

I believe that is wrong.
I believe it is wrong because Jesus death and resurrection insures that everyone, saint and sinner, will be raised from the dead physically immortal and physically incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52-54)
The second death, in the lake of burning sulfur, comes after the resurrection.

 

[Born Again 2004]

We agree. There is a physical death which is the "wages of sin" and there is a second death. after the resurrection, for those who rejected God's gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

.....I'm glad we have come to agreement!

 

[JLB]

I believe that is wrong.
I believe it is wrong because Jesus death and resurrection insures that everyone, saint and sinner, will be raised from the dead physically immortal and physically incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:52-54)
The second death, in the lake of burning sulfur, comes after the resurrection.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

At this point, the resurrection has taken place, in which the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain, are caught up together in the clouds in the air, before He ever gets back to earth.

This sets the context of timing, for what He is about to say.

• At this point the resurrection has taken place, in which: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:29

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

At this point, the resurrection has taken place, in which the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain, are caught up together in the clouds in the air, before He ever gets back to earth.

This sets the context of timing, for what He is about to say.

• At this point the resurrection has taken place, in which: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:29

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


JLB

OK
Jesus comes again.
The dead are raised from their physical death. (If they were dead at that point in time.)
Everyone is judged according to what they did or didn't do per Mat 25:31-46.
(Merciful inherit the kingdom. Unmerciful go to hell.)
Then hell and death are cast into the lake of burning sulfur which is the 2nd death. Rev 20:14

 

[Kidron]

The bible provides us with the definition of what faith is, as well as how faith comes to us.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

I see where so much of your misunderstanding comes from.

You choose to define scripture from your own understanding, rather than acknowledging God and His word.

Do not lean on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.

That's why what you try to teach is from man and not from God.

Ask the Lord to Baptize you with the Holy Spirit, so that the Holy Spirit can renew your mind, and teach you the truth.


JLB

-
-
JLB,
You are not able to prove what you have just accused me of doing, unless you think making a blank false statement is the truth.
And you probably do, which means nothing to me, actually.
You are a person that cant even grasp that Christ's blood atonement is permanent.
You impugn God's Grace by trying to saving yourself, so, what can you possibly tell me about a salvation scripture when you have not yet comprehended God's Grace.?
Answer? = nothing.
So, i'll tell you what, I'll let you ask the Lord to baptize me, as you say i need it, right after you are born again.
Get that solved first, JLB, and then you can ask the Lord whatever you like, on my behalf.

So, As i said, "Faith is Trust".
And Trust is the "state of believing".
Faith becomes faith, when Trust becomes real.
And THEN, it has become the "evident hope" that you are trying to understand in that verse you quoted without understanding it yet.

 

[JLB]

JLB,
You are not able to prove what you have just accused me of doing, unless you think making a blank false statement is the truth.

I asked you what faith is.

Instead of giving the bible's definition of faith, you chose to give your own definition, from your own understanding.

I did this to prove a point, because this is how you address the scriptures Jethro and I have presented to you, about this particular subject, in which you disregard what the scriptures teach in favor of your doctrine, most of which comes from your own understanding, as in the example you yourself just proved, by giving your own "definition" of faith.

This was a spiritual test to prove a point.

The Point: You rely on your own understanding, more than relying on God and His Word... IMHO

We are to align ourselves with what the scriptures say, rather than bending them and disregarding them, in favor of our own doctrine.

We are to renew our minds with the truth of the scriptures, and pattern our lives by what Jesus and His Apostles taught us.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You impugn God's Grace by trying to saving yourself, so, what can you possibly tell me about a salvation scripture when you have not yet comprehended God's Grace.?

Please explain to me, how continuing in the faith, and continuing to believe, which is holding fast the word that was preached to me,
"trying to save myself".

I will not depart from the faith, in favor of a doctrine of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

Do you realize what you are doing, when you teach a person they don't have to continue in the faith, to be saved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

So, i'll tell you what, I'll let you ask the Lord to baptize me, as you say i need it, right after you are born again.
Get that solved first, JLB, and then you can ask the Lord whatever you like, on my behalf.

It's those who hunger and thirst after righteousness that are filled.

It's those who ask, and seek, and knock who are given.

5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs.

9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Do you realize what you are doing, when you teach a person they don't have to continue in the faith, to be saved?



JLB

-

No, im not doing that, of course..
What im doing is showing any believer who cares to walk in the TRUTH:
Hebrews 12:2
"looking unto JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS = THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER FINISHER FINISHER OF OUR FAITH FAITH FAITH".

Our Bible says that JESUS IS THE FINISHER OF YOUR FAITH AND NOT YOU.
Galatians 1:8


And then try this one....
"God who began SALVATION IN YOU < > will HIMSELF COMPLETE IT"..... Philippians 1:6

But I dont teach that mess, i only teach that The Blood Atonement is PERMANENT, and that JESUS... >SAVED<... us, and i posted 2 verses that absolutely show you that God and Christ FINISH your SALVATION, and NOT YOU.....

-

K
<><

 

[JLB]

-

No, im not doing that, of course..
What im doing is showing any believer who cares to walk in the TRUTH, that you JLB, are not teaching the Truth.
You are NOT teaching this:
Hebrews 12:2
"looking unto JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS = THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER FINISHER FINISHER OF OUR FAITH FAITH FAITH".

You, instead are defying this verse with self righteousness, by teaching that believers are to keep Faith as the WAY to save themselves, when your Bible says that JESUS IS THE FINISHER OF YOUR FAITH AND NOT YOU.
So, you are Galatians 1:8
(as always).

And then try this one....
"God who began SALVATION IN YOU < > will HIMSELF COMPLETE IT"..... Philippians 1:6

So we all see that your theology is..."JLB will save himself and tell everyone else to to the same"".

But I dont teach that mess, i only teach that The Blood Atonement is PERMANENT, and that JESUS... >SAVED<... us, and i posted 2 verses that absolutely show you that God and Christ FINISH your SALVATION, and NOT YOU.....

-

K
<><

I asked you what faith is.

Instead of giving the bible's definition of faith, you chose to give your own definition, from your own understanding.

I did this to prove a point, because this is how you address the scriptures Jethro and I have presented to you, about this particular subject, in which you disregard what the scriptures teach in favor of your doctrine, most of which comes from your own understanding, as in the example you yourself just proved, by giving your own "definition" of faith.

This was a spiritual test to prove a point.

The Point: You rely on your own understanding, more than relying on God and His Word... IMHO

We are to align ourselves with what the scriptures say, rather than bending them and disregarding them, in favor of our own doctrine.

We are to renew our minds with the truth of the scriptures, and pattern our lives by what Jesus and His Apostles taught us.



JLB

 

[JLB]

-

No, im not doing that, of course..
What im doing is showing any believer who cares to walk in the TRUTH, that you JLB, are not teaching the Truth.
You are NOT teaching this:
Hebrews 12:2
"looking unto JESUS JESUS JESUS JESUS = THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER FINISHER FINISHER OF OUR FAITH FAITH FAITH".

You, instead are defying this verse with self righteousness, by teaching that believers are to keep Faith as the WAY to save themselves, when your Bible says that JESUS IS THE FINISHER OF YOUR FAITH AND NOT YOU.
So, you are Galatians 1:8
(as always).

And then try this one....
"God who began SALVATION IN YOU < > will HIMSELF COMPLETE IT"..... Philippians 1:6

So we all see that your theology is..."JLB will save himself and tell everyone else to to the same"".

But I dont teach that mess, i only teach that The Blood Atonement is PERMANENT, and that JESUS... >SAVED<... us, and i posted 2 verses that absolutely show you that God and Christ FINISH your SALVATION, and NOT YOU.....

-

K
<><

Here is your claim -

Kidron said: ↑
You impugn God's Grace by trying to saving yourself, so, what can you possibly tell me about a salvation scripture when you have not yet comprehended God's Grace.?

Do you believe a person must continue in the faith, to the end of their life, or do you teach that a person can depart from the faith, giving heed to doctrines of demons, while no longer obeying Christ, and still be saved?


Please explain to me, how continuing in the faith, and continuing to believe, which is holding fast the word that was preached to me,
"trying to save myself".

I will not depart from the faith, in favor of a doctrine of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

Do you realize what you are doing, when you teach a person they don't have to continue in the faith, to be saved?


JLB

 

[Kidron]

I asked you what faith is.

Instead of giving the bible's definition of faith, you chose to give your own definition, from your own understanding.

I did this to prove a point, because this is how you address the scriptures Jethro and I have presented to you, about this particular subject, in which you disregard what the scriptures teach in favor of your doctrine, most of which comes from your own understanding, as in the example you yourself just proved, by giving your own "definition" of faith.

This was a spiritual test to prove a point.

The Point: You rely on your own understanding, more than relying on God and His Word... IMHO

We are to align ourselves with what the scriptures say, rather than bending them and disregarding them, in favor of our own doctrine.

We are to renew our minds with the truth of the scriptures, and pattern our lives by what Jesus and His Apostles taught us.



JLB

-

JLB....

Do you get tired of realizing that you cant respond to what i have shown you to be, so instead you try to dodge it with the same tired retreaded posts full of verses that show that you are trying to save yourself?
Listen, you cant dodge the truth and you are caught like a bird on a wire.
So, as i said, i can use just these 2 verses and your Theology is proven to be self righteous...(That is, "trying to make SELF RIGHT with GOD".
That is you, and that is everyone (Jethro Bodine) that is not TRUSTING CHRIST TO DO IT FOR YOU, as He said He would.

Hebrews 12:2
Philippians 1:6

 

[JLB]

-
-
JLB,
You are not able to prove what you have just accused me of doing, unless you think making a blank false statement is the truth.
And you probably do, which means nothing to me, actually.
You are a person that cant even grasp that Christ's blood atonement is permanent.
You impugn God's Grace by trying to saving yourself, so, what can you possibly tell me about a salvation scripture when you have not yet comprehended God's Grace.?
Answer? = nothing.
So, i'll tell you what, I'll let you ask the Lord to baptize me, as you say i need it, right after you are born again.
Get that solved first, JLB, and then you can ask the Lord whatever you like, on my behalf.

So, As i said, "Faith is Trust".
And Trust is the "state of believing".
Faith becomes faith, when Trust becomes real.
And THEN, it has become the "evident hope" that you are trying to understand in that verse you quoted without understanding it yet.

Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit, which means do you believe that people should be Baptized in the Holy Spirit?

IOW, if you believe we are to be baptized in water, or the Spirit but you refuse to be baptized in water, or the Spirit, then it seems as you don't really believe in being baptized in water, or the Spirit.

Have you been Baptized in water, which means do you believe that people should be Baptized in water?


Just asking you a simple question.


I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, then later I was baptized in water.

How about you?



JLB

 

[JLB]

-

JLB....

Do you get tired of realizing that you cant respond to what i have shown you to be, so instead you try to dodge it with the same tired retreaded posts full of verses that show that you are trying to save yourself?
Listen, you cant dodge the truth and you are caught like a bird on a wire.
So, as i said, i can use just these 2 verses and your Theology is proven to be self righteous...(That is, "trying to make SELF RIGHT with GOD".
That is you, and that is everyone (Jethro Bodine) that is not TRUSTING CHRIST TO DO IT FOR YOU, as He said He would.

Hebrews 12:2
Philippians 1:6

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Now that I have shown, you choose your own understanding, to define faith, and refuse what the bibles says faith is, can you explain why you believe a person can depart from the faith, giving heed to doctrines of demons, and still be saved?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit, which means do you believe that people should be Baptized in the Holy Spirit?



JLB

-
The "new Birth", is to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, BY the Holy Spirit...(Jesus said "you must be born again")
This is the means that God uses to put you "in Christ", when you believe.
So, every single believer "has" the Holy Spirit inside them.. are you are "none of God's".

Now does God "anoint" or "call" some for ministry, that is an "enabling" for Ministry this is something "extra" that is for THOSE, and not just every believer?....= Absolutely.
An example would be Paul the Apostle......He has the anointing to BE an "Apostle".....and that is not what the average Christian has., not at all., but they DO have the Holy Spirit inside them.

 

[Kidron]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


JLB

-
So let me show you where you are missing the mark.
Here is how you are misunderstanding the verse..
In your head, it goes like this....

"in the latter times some will depart from THEIR SALVATION AND BE LOST, giving heed to deceiving sprits".

But that is not what the verse says..
It says they will depart from the faith.....that is....they will become involved in other teachings - religions... that are outside of Christianity, because demons have conned them.....deceived them.

And because YOU are trusting in FAITH instead of JESUS to save you, you cant grasp that salvation is not kept by Faith, but rather you are Kept SAVED...= by GOD and CHRIST.

Hebrews 12:2
Philippians 1:6