Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

Ha Ha!
But for the purpose of this discussion, and action is a work including non-physical actions such as judging others.

iakov the fool

Well, I suppose you can define it how you like, but 'works' are specific actions - not actions are specific works. People can get confused when terms are not defined correctly.

 

[Jim Parker]

Well, I suppose you can define it how you like, but 'works' are specific actions - not actions are specific works. People can get confused when terms are not defined correctly.

A "work" is anything one does. (mental or physical)
Some works are good; some are evil; some are neutral.
That's what I meant when I used the word in my original post.

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Put it this way;

Action is actually doing something - physical, mental, etc

Work is actually doing something and laboring for it.

We don't labor for faith, we receive it from God, submit to His leading, and let Him work through us by His strength(labor) - we simply follow.

 

[Nathan]

A "work" is anything one does. (mental or physical)
Some works are good; some are evil; some are neutral.
That's what I meant when I used the word in my original post.

iakov the fool

Ok, but that's not how the Bible defines it.

I'm just saying, you can use better words to describe something. You can replace that "work" with "action" and it still would indicate 'doing'. All of man's works are evil. Only the works that God does through us are good.

Romans 3 is very clear on this.

 

[Jim Parker]

Put it this way;
Action is actually doing something - physical, mental, etc
Work is actually doing something and laboring for it.
We don't labor for faith, we receive it from God, submit to His leading, and let Him work through us by His strength(labor) - we simply follow.

Nathan;
For the purpose of this discussion which I initiated in the OP, the word "work" means: "A "work" is anything one does. (mental or physical)"

As in: Gal 5:19-21a Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like.

Those "works" include physical actions (fornication, drunkenness, carousing, idolatry, sorcery,) and mental actions including attitudes (impurity, licentiousness, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension).

Introducing alternative meanings for "works" will, of necessity, also introduce confusion so I would appreciate sticking to the definition on which my comments were based in order to avoid confusion.

that's all...

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

All of man's works are evil.

Really?

God created us to do good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Jesus tells us to do good works:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works ...
Mar 14:7 For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them;...
Luk 6:27 But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good,...

So does Paul:
Gal 6:10a So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men...
1Th 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.
1Ti 6:18 They are to do good, to be rich in good deeds, liberal and generous,
Heb 13:16a Do not neglect to do good...

Your statement, "All of man's works are evil.", if true, would mean that God tells us to do things which are impossible for us to do. That would suggest that God is not quite sane.

Only the works that God does through us are good.

That brings us back to the idea that God is a puppeteer and we don't do anything by our own will. There is no support for such a notion in scripture.


iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Nathan;
For the purpose of this discussion which I initiated in the OP, the word "work" means: "A "work" is anything one does. (mental or physical)"

As in: Gal 5:19-21a Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like.

Those "works" include physical actions (fornication, drunkenness, carousing, idolatry, sorcery,) and mental actions including attitudes (impurity, licentiousness, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension).

Introducing alternative meanings for "works" will, of necessity, also introduce confusion so I would appreciate sticking to the definition on which my comments were based in order to avoid confusion.

that's all...

iakov the fool

As I said, that is fine if that's how you want to define it. Your thread, your definition. I was replying to someone else using my definition, not your post.

My post, my definition.

 

[Jim Parker]

I was replying to someone else using my definition, not your post.

My post, my definition.

A different thread.

 

[Nathan]

Really?

God created us to do good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Jesus tells us to do good works:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works ...
Mar 14:7 For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them;...
Luk 6:27 But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good,...

So does Paul:
Gal 6:10a So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men...
1Th 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.
1Ti 6:18 They are to do good, to be rich in good deeds, liberal and generous,
Heb 13:16a Do not neglect to do good...

Your statement, "All of man's works are evil.", if true, would mean that God tells us to do things which are impossible for us to do. That would suggest that God is not quite sane.


That brings us back to the idea that God is a puppeteer and we don't do anything by our own will. There is no support for such a notion in scripture.


iakov the fool

Interesting. You don't see that God prepared those works for us to do? We just submit to His hand in our lives? That we walk in them, not labor for them?

That's why I define works and actions seperately - for my own self. I'm not trying to define it for you or say that your words mean what mine do.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, but that's not how the Bible defines it.

I'm just saying, you can use better words to describe something. You can replace that "work" with "action" and it still would indicate 'doing'. All of man's works are evil. Only the works that God does through us are good.

Romans 3 is very clear on this.

Nathan
If the only good works we do are by God doing them through us, then we'd be those puppets Parker is talking about.

We never mention on these threads that there are 3 stages to our salvation.
Justification
Totally accomplished by God

Sanctification
A cooperative effort between God and man.
This is the stage James speaks of when he states that faith without works is dead.
Works are necessary at this stage. Jesus said they are required of us.
Sorry, no Bible here.
Mathew 5 and 25

Glorification
Here we are given our glorified body and have received our prize...Heaven and eternal life.
What we worked for.

 

[Jim Parker]

You don't see that God prepared those works for us to do?

That's what the scripture says.

We just submit to His hand in our lives?

Submission does not change the character of the work to be something other than a work.
Submission itself is a "work."
We choose to do (submit to) His will. That choosing is a work.

I define works and actions seperately - for my own self.

You may define it any way you wish. But, when you use it to mean something other than the definition used by the person with whom you are having a conversation, you will introduce confusion. An example is when, in conversing with a Mormon, they refer to God the Father and mean something totally different from the Christian usage of the term.

Such mixing of meanings is a major cause of man's failure to communicate effectively in any field.

That we walk in them, not labor for them?

That is an excellent example of creating confusion.
There is no real difference aside from the nuances which you wish to improperly attach to the words.


iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Nathan
If the only good works we do are by God doing them through us, then we'd be those puppets Parker is talking about.

We never mention on these threads that there are 3 stages to our salvation.
Justification
Totally accomplished by God

Sanctification
A cooperative effort between God and man.
This is the stage James speaks of when he states that faith without works is dead.
Works are necessary at this stage. Jesus said they are required of us.
Sorry, no Bible here.
Mathew 5 and 25

Glorification
Here we are given our glorified body and have received our prize...Heaven and eternal life.
What we worked for.

Remember the tree/branch analogy from the other thread?

Do you suppose an apple tree branch labors to produce the fruit? Or do you suppose it passes on the nutrients of the tree?

 

[Nathan]

That's what the scripture says.

Submission does not change the character of the work to be something other than a work.
Submission itself is a "work."
We choose to do (submit to) His will. That choosing is a work.

You may define it any way you wish. But, when you use it to mean something other than the definition used by the person with whom you are having a conversation, you will introduce confusion. An example is when, in conversing with a Mormon, they refer to God the Father and mean something totally different from the Christian usage of the term.

Such mixing of meanings is a major cause of man's failure to communicate effectively in any field.

iakov the fool

Go back through the posts. I was replying to WIP, not you. You then asked me and I defined it as the Bible does.

Your welcome to define it how you like. I don't have to agree. Some people believe satan is Jesus brother. I don't have to agree with their definition to communicate to them.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you suppose an apple tree branch labors to produce the fruit? Or do you suppose it passes on the nutrients of the tree?

That is a false analogy.
We are not trees, we are human beings created in the image and likeness of God.
Trees are not created in the image and likeness of God.
Trees do not exercise free will as humans do.
We can choose to do God's will or to not do God's will.
A tree cannot choose to produce fruit or not produce fruit.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't have to agree with their definition to communicate to them.

yeah good luck with that

 

[Nathan]

If I prepare a meal for my kids and they eat it did they do the work or just receive it?

 

[Nathan]

That is a false analogy.
We are not trees, we are human beings created in the image and likeness of God.
Trees are not created in the image and likeness of God.
Trees do not exercise free will as humans do.
We can choose to do God's will or to not do God's will.
A tree cannot choose to produce fruit or not produce fruit.

iakov the fool

I'm not sure how to respond. The Bible is full of this analogy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Remember the tree/branch analogy from the other thread?

Do you suppose an apple tree branch labors to produce the fruit? Or do you suppose it passes on the nutrients of the tree?

I did say it's a cooperative effort.
God does His part
We do our part.

If by the vine analogy we understand the helper to be the Holy Spirit, I agree.

Does a tree labor.
Jesus said he is the vine, we are the branches.
He said the branches that do not produce fruit will be cut off.
Do those branches also not receive from the vine?
But they did not produce...
He was also mad at the fig tree on one of His trips from Bethany to Jerusalem during Passover week
Because it had no fruit.

I believe we'd best produce fruit!

 

[Nathan]

I did say it's a cooperative effort.
God does His part
We do our part.

If by the vine analogy we understand the helper to be the Holy Spirit, I agree.

Does a tree labor.
Jesus said he is the vine, we are the branches.
He said the branches that do not produce fruit will be cut off.
Do those branches also not receive from the vine?
But they did not produce...
He was also mad at the fig tree on one of His trips from Bethany to Jerusalem during Passover week
Because it had no fruit.

I believe we'd best produce fruit!

It's impossible to produce fruit it the branch is not attached right? So where does the fruit come from?

 

[GodsGrace]

It's impossible to produce fruit it the branch is not attached right? So where does the fruit come from?

Are you saying God does all the work and we do nothing?

If one is not attached, he is not saved.