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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
chessman
Member
I believe that on the one hand my soul (my mind) is serving God but on the other hand my flesh is serving sin.
No.
Nathan
Member
Thanks.
I never thought of it, but one thing that helps to understand life, death, and eternal life, is to look at the different 'part' of who we actually are. I find the best description when Jesus confirmed what the greatest commandment was.
Mark 12:30 - And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.
Its the same in every Bible translation. 4 distinct parts of who we are.
I am fixing to reply to the other post now, but one more question I have on this one is which 'part' of us do you believe is now eternal life?
Jethro Bodine
Member
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)
Believers have eternal life now. They have it in the form of a down payment of the Holy Spirit and a legal declaration of righteousness.
"10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness." (Romans 8:10 NASB)
The body and all it's faculties is the thing about us that is awaiting the righteousness of Christ. That is our hope.
Believers have eternal life now. They have it in the form of a down payment of the Holy Spirit and a legal declaration of righteousness.
"10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness." (Romans 8:10 NASB)
The body and all it's faculties is the thing about us that is awaiting the righteousness of Christ. That is our hope.
Nathan
Member
To answer your question on righteousness; I do not see anywhere in the Bible where the flesh of man receives righteousness, or is 'redeemed' in anyway. It is appointed for our flesh to die. There is no changing that. So, that means that righteousness is only imputed to our soul - the center of who we are - the 'sinful' part of man that needs righteousness. Righteousness does not need to be imputed where there is no need for it. Right?
Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
You ask my thoughts on this verse, and I fully believe that the people who live(practice) according to the flesh are unbelievers. John is clear on this teaching also in his letters.
Your question on Leviticus, I'm not sure if it is a rhetorical one or actual one? I'll go into detail if you like, but if you were just wondering why I brought it up, it was to show that the soul of man is where sin is and is what needs to be redeemed/sanctified/be made pure.
"Being freed from sin" is simply to not be enslaved to it any longer. Its quite simple really. Its a slavery term. When a person is a slave, he may not like his master, or like what his master tells him to do, but he has to do it. To be 'freed' from sin, means we no longer have to sin. It no longer has dominion over us.
However, as we see in that same verse, we have a new master now. He tells us what to do.
When we do not obey our new master - is that sin?
Nathan
Member
Which part of the believer is eternal life right now?
chessman
Member
The part that's been put to death, renewed and sprung to life (eternal) by the Spirit. Indeed we believers are living in God's Spirit. Call it whatever you'd like (mind, spirit, soul, desire or 'heart'). My point is, born again (born anew) believers have (right now) zero 'desire' to sin (though it's a war with our flesh not to at times). It's an entirely winnable war, however.
And again, Paul's clear as daylight point in Rom 6:22 (and other verses as well) is that death of the ole (spirit, soul, desire, 'heart) and it's renewal benefits us with ____.??? You guessed it, Eternal Life.
Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
I have just a little time today and none this weekend (I fisheth for fish). But I have enjoyed (and learned from) your perspective on Eternal Life. I hold to my original points still because I find them to correspond to the Texts (all of them, including Leviticus).
And this next comment may come across rude but I honestly don't mean it to rudely. But it needs to be pointed out.
I said:
Your response to my statement was:
Paul said in one of his many conclusion statements at the end of Chapter 7:
Romans 7:25 (NASB) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
We all would do good to think about it AND thank about it
Right. The longer I live with this flesh, the less I desire it to be eternal.
The longer I live with my newly renewed soul, the more I desire it to be eternal.
Right. And one of the things of the Spirit that has been given to us is_____??? You guessed it, Eternal life.
Yep. The ole soul needs redeeming and to be sanctified. And for a believer, it has been! See Rom 6:22.
Correct.
Yep. And does that new Master have dominion over our new souls? (Yes or no)
Yes, yes and triple yes.
I am so looking forward to new flesh. Aren't you?
Nathan
Member
Ok, you lost me. 
Way too much broken up posting.
Here is what I think your missing. Eternal life = absence of death, correct?
Now, if your 'person' (whatever you want to say you are) has any sin, then it in turn has death. You cannot have sin without death. Its impossible. Sin always brings death. So, if you were truly eternally living - right here and now - you would have zero sin. None.
I think people don't realize this - soul being absent from sin - is apart of Gnostic doctrine. Its dangerous, and I simply am trying to help you see this.
I can try to break down your last post's questions if you want, but if they were just rhetorical let me know. Generally, when I ask a question it is a serious question, and if its rhetorical I will make mention of it.
Christ died because sin was placed on Him. If that sin had not been placed on Him, He would not have died. Now, He is once again Eternal, because He has no sin.
If we had no sin ourselves, but had eternal life, then He would have no need to make intersession for us as He does right now.
Way too much broken up posting.
Here is what I think your missing. Eternal life = absence of death, correct?
Now, if your 'person' (whatever you want to say you are) has any sin, then it in turn has death. You cannot have sin without death. Its impossible. Sin always brings death. So, if you were truly eternally living - right here and now - you would have zero sin. None.
I think people don't realize this - soul being absent from sin - is apart of Gnostic doctrine. Its dangerous, and I simply am trying to help you see this.
I can try to break down your last post's questions if you want, but if they were just rhetorical let me know. Generally, when I ask a question it is a serious question, and if its rhetorical I will make mention of it.
Christ died because sin was placed on Him. If that sin had not been placed on Him, He would not have died. Now, He is once again Eternal, because He has no sin.
If we had no sin ourselves, but had eternal life, then He would have no need to make intersession for us as He does right now.
chessman
Member
Ask for clarification on anything I said at anytime. Except the rest of today or the weekend, I'll be offline.Ok, you lost me.
Way too much broken up posting.
Incorrect. Scripture that teaches this please!
Which is why I asked you at least three times to either stipulate the one I proposed or propose a better definition for "death" than the one I proposed. You simply said it was "hard". Yes, it's hard if you try inserting your conclusion into the definition of "death". Not to mention a made up definition will likely conflict with Bible statements.
What you are missing is you have committed a "failure to elucidate" by having no workable definition of "death" in the first place. These words mean things, Biblically and in our (and more importantly Paul's) use of them in sentences. Just like all othet words, to include the tenses of verbs. We can't just make up our own meaning (or tenses) and expect to learn the author's meaning.
The verb tenses Paul used in Rom 6:22 (and everehere else) were intentionally precise in my opinion. If we mess around with them, we err. If we mess around with the definition of "eternal" or "life" or "death" we similarly err.
Description of the logical fallacy "failure to elucidate: When the definition is made more difficult to understand than the word or concept being defined.
None of theses words are all that complicated to define or understand:
1. Death
2. Eternal
3. Life
4. Sin
5. Flesh
6. Soul
Etc.
It's when people 'make up' their own overly complex definitions and run with them to support their desired 'conclusion' that confusion and illogical arguments arise. As you did in the post I am replying to here.
You can't just make up 'eternal life = absence of death" into a Biblically based argument. Arguments built on your conclusion are not logical.
Here:
Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Insert your definition:
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, absence of death.
Is that even what you believe?
No it's not. Gnostic droctrine teaches (among other hersey) that some people can obtain 'special knowledge' (Gnosis) that others don't have acces to. They even past this 'special' knowledge down with a mouth to mouth kiss. Literally, not metaphorically. Hogwash. We all have access to the same all knowing God through His Spirit. And at our baptism in that Spirit, HE begins to teach us. Not some othet guy kissing us on the mouth.
It's not necessary, no. I'm out of time on this.
I use ??? (or just say it's rhetorical) to indicate when.
Yes, it's helpfull. Thanks.
Wow! Think that thru. When was Christ's soul ever not eternal? Gotta go.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Well, I think you are the same spirit in eternity that you are now, so in that sense your spirit is eternal . But so is everybody's (if you don't believe in anihilism). This is where the quality of life comes in in regard to eternal life. Only believers have that quality of life.....and only if they are walking by the Spirit.
And in regard to the body, some think the literal atoms of your present body will be reformed to make your glorified body. And so your body is eternal right now, too, in that sense.....just in need of a little repair (okay, a lot of repair). But then again, so will unbelievers be resurrected in their bodies, and will dwell in them forever in everlasting punishment (assuming you are not anihilist).
I think to avoid all the confusion of this subject it's important to think of eternal life as Jesus in you by the Holy Spirit. It's a quality of life. That is the important fact about eternal life. And that life lasts forever because the kingdom of God endures forever and ever. We will live in this quality of life by the Holy Spirit--in it's fullness, not just via a down payment--in the life to come in a kingdom that never ends where there is no death and suffering.
Nathan
Member
This post is long, but well worth the read. If you only read part of it you will not understand it all - it will not make sense.
The reason I stated it was 'hard' to define death is because you have to define it in context. I cannot say that death is absent of life, because Paul says I am to consider myself dead to sin. Am I absent of life then? No, in that instance it simply means that I am not living for sin. However, you turn around and say "hey, uncle billy is dead" - that means uncle billy is absent of life. His body is dead.
Now, back to the quote of mine "Eternal life = absent of Death". Eternal life has to be absent of death. There cannot be any death in life it is eternal. Please help me understand how eternal life could possibly have any death in it?
I am not saying that eternal life is only equal to the absence of death - I am just stating that there cannot be death, of any kind, in eternal life.
This is Gnosticism; https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gnosticism.html
I am not saying that what you believe is Gnostic in totality, I am stating that it is a part of Gnostic Doctrine. We need to understand that the flesh, our body, is simply a vessel that we live in. It cannot do anything apart from us being inside it. We make the decisions - our soul does.
Now, to tie all this together, with the 'interesting' statement I made. I use that word because I actually did write it without thinking about it - in detail that is. So when I saw your aversion to it, and your statement, I did have to think to myself "is this correct?".
However, the statement was completely correct. Christ died. (period). In totality.
I think this would be an excellent study, since it is coming up on the time of year we remember this death. But we can do a short study right here on it. Seeing how it does deal with eternal life.
Christ is eternal life. True statement. He is sinless. True statement. However, on the cross, God the Father laid on Him the sin of us all. True statement.
That sin was not just placed on His flesh. It was placed on His Soul. He bore our punishment. God requires blood to be spilled, not for the flesh of man, but for the soul of man. Because Christ had the sins of us placed on Him, on His Soul, He became the perfect sacrifice - because He had no sin to begin with. OH HOW MARVELOUS IS HIS WAY!
Christ died, and God the Father then gave Him life eternal. It is imperative to understand, that Christ fully died - it was a perfect sacrifice - paid in full. That is why He had to be in the ground for 3 days. Jews believed that after 3 days the soul left the body(died), and at that point the person was 'fully' dead.
This is hard to grasp - but its truth - Christ was stripped of His immortality/eternal life, for that one moment when God the Father poured out His wrath on Him for our sins.
Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
God - in whom alone immortality is - forsook His only Son at that moment. This is so solemn, its hard to continue. However, there is good news to follow.
Acts 2:22-32
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to beheld by it. For David says concerning him,
“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
God raised Jesus from the grave. He did not leave His soul in Sheol(Hades) - but, because He did 'die' we know He went there. It was not His flesh that went there, it was His Soul.
Here is the point. Eternal life cannot have any death in it. We prove to ourselves that we do not have eternal life every time we sin. Eternal life is absent from sin - once sin comes in, then death must take place. Christ died once. That's it. He does not die repeatedly, He cannot do that. So we cannot say, "well, I sin, but then God forgives me and gives me eternal life again - then I sin, and it leaves, and then comes again.....etc" - it CANNOT work that way. The death Christ died was once and for all. When He rose again, He NEVER again will die - why? Because He is eternal life, and God's wrath was paid in full. There is no need for Christ to have the sins of the world placed on Him again - that's why He will never die. We cannot say that of ourselves because we still sin. We still see that part of us that will be taken care of at our death, or His coming - then, we can receive life in its eternal state.
Does that mean we do not have hope in this life? Not at all. We have faith.
That faith, a gift from God, is as sure as having the real thing. Think of Abraham. Perfect example of our life now.Abraham was old and 'unable' to have children(technically). Children in those days were a 'sign' of life. They were a continuance of your life. We are sinful, and unable of having life in and of ourselves. We need a continuance of life, if we are to keep on living - or else we die for ever.
God told Abraham he would be the father of many nations - not just children - but nations. As many as the stars in the sky. I do not know if you have ever tried, but it is impossible to count the stars. Scientists have actually tried to use computers, but said it would take untold time for computers to even be able to count them - they could not even state how long it would be.
So in essence, God was telling Abraham - "your going to live forever". And what did Abraham do? He believed God.
Now, Abraham did not 'see' all of these nations of people did he? Did he posses them? No, he believed God by faith - without having the actual thing God promised.
Hebrews 11:8-13
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age,since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
We "know" we have eternal life - through faith. Rest assured, with faith, you can be sure of eternal life. Don't think that just because you do not 'posses' it now that God will all of a sudden 'decide' to not give it to you. God is faithful, and if you believe He gave you faith to believe in the Christ, then why would you not also believe that He will give to you eternal life - and raise you from the dead?
Nathan
Member
I do not think that eternal life can be considered more of a quality of life, than an absence of death. God is eternal - and in Him is eternal life - Jesus is said to be the eternal life - that cannot mean just "quality". It is also stated that God alone is immortal.
1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen
I am not sure where the idea of an 'immortal' soul came from. Do people think that because God gives 'life' that it is the same as 'immortality'? (I am not accusing you of this Jethro)
I do believe eternal life will include a quality of life beyond compare. But to say that eternal life is just qualitity of life, is to deny what it is not - which is death.
Pure light is the absence of any darkness.
Pure darkness is the absence of any light.
Truth is the absence of anything false.
Anything false is the absence of pure truth.
White is the full inclusion of all colors.
Black is the absence of any colors.
The list can go on and on. Point being - life is the opposite of death when you are talking about the same thing.
This is exactly why eternal life has to come through faith. Faith can exist in something that is dying, where as eternal life cannot.
Jim Parker
Member
Eternal life comes through faith but is accomplished by being united to Christ in HIS life. Thus the extensive use by Paul of the term, "in Christ."
iakov the fool
Nathan
Member
Maybe we should define "eternal life" as it is defined in the Bible, just so we cannot get confused by its meaning. Where context means everything, the definition also helps to understand.
Romans 6:22 - But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
"eternal'
αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
"life"
ζωή zōḗ, dzo-ay'; from G2198; life (literally or figuratively):—life(-time).
So we can see it means - perpetual life.
Romans 6:22 - But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
"eternal'
αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
"life"
ζωή zōḗ, dzo-ay'; from G2198; life (literally or figuratively):—life(-time).
So we can see it means - perpetual life.
Nathan
Member
Exactly!
This is what Romans 6:23 says:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
JLB
Douglas Summers
Member
No! Are you asking this being a Christian? How did you come to trust the Lord's work in your behalf?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Who said so?
Christ himself is eternal life (1 John 5:20 NASB). And Christ is in these dead and dying bodies of ours via the Holy Spirit.
Douglas Summers
Member
It is the Holy Spirit acts in the believer with free sovereignty. It is the Spirit that gifts the believer. Nothing is left up to self will or self choosing. It is not you using the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit manifesting itself through the submitting believer. The Holy Spirit forms the body as it unites us to the body of Christ. All is done by Holy Spirit to the submitting believer. (1 Cor. 12:1-31)