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[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

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Mmarco

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Hi everybody!

As a physiscist, I would like to share what I think is the strongest rational argument for God's existence, i.e. the mathematical representability of the natural laws. A well-known result of modern science is that natural phenomena can be sytematically predicted through a specific system of few mathematical equations, the laws of physics. The laws of physics describe nature in terms of quarks, quantum fields, bosons, etc.; all these terms actually refer to abstract mathematical models which are the elements of a complex mathematical theory. Unless you consider the success of the laws of physics, which represents the basis of modern technological progress, as an unbelievably lucky series of coincidences, you should agree with the idea that our mathematical models describe the intimate structure of the universe; such structure would consist of abstract mathematical relations, because this is what the laws of physics express.
Since mathematical equations and mathematical models are abstract concepts, which cannot exist independently from a mind conceiving them, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of an intelligent and conscious God, conceiving it according to such mathematical structures.
 
Mmarco said:
Hi everybody!

As a physiscist, I would like to share what I think is the strongest rational argument for God's existence, i.e. the mathematical representability of the natural laws. A well-known result of modern science is that natural phenomena can be sytematically predicted through a specific system of few mathematical equations, the laws of physics. The laws of physics describe nature in terms of quarks, quantum fields, bosons, etc.; all these terms actually refer to abstract mathematical models which are the elements of a complex mathematical theory. Unless you consider the success of the laws of physics, which represents the basis of modern technological progress, as an unbelievably lucky series of coincidences, you should agree with the idea that our mathematical models describe the intimate structure of the universe; such structure would consist of abstract mathematical relations, because this is what the laws of physics express.
Since mathematical equations and mathematical models are abstract concepts, which cannot exist independently from a mind conceiving them, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of an intelligent and conscious God, conceiving it according to such mathematical structures.
Click to expand...
Mathematical models are merely a logical way of describing the behavior of the physical universe. I don't consider the abstract concepts as proof, and the atheists don't either. What I believe is more amazing and proof-worthy is the fact that men can come up with these mathematical models, which shows me that such a high intelligence of a creature points to a creator with higher intelligence. Nowhere and at no time does random processes produce intelligence. That has to come from a higher intelligence who made man to be intelligent. We are made in God's image.
TD:)
 
I would like to clarify that my faith in Christ is certainly not based on my scientific knowledges; I believed in Christ long before I became a physiscist and the reason why I believe in Christ is essentially that I find His teachings fully convincing.
Nevertheless, studying physics I have found a striking confirmation of some of my beliefs.
I also know that atheists would not accept my argument because they reject "a priori" the idea of God, and therefore they reject any valid argument about God's existence.
 
What's amazing is that God can create a universe in which things like us can appear. Or at least our bodies can. Our souls are given directly by God.

But even those aren't "designed." God is no mere "designer."

The IDers say that the "designer" might be a "space alien." But a Creator is singular. Only one of those, and He never has to figure anything out.

The problem with ID is they want to keep God down to manageable size.
 
Mmarco said:
Hi everybody!

As a physiscist, I would like to share what I think is the strongest rational argument for God's existence, i.e. the mathematical representability of the natural laws. A well-known result of modern science is that natural phenomena can be sytematically predicted through a specific system of few mathematical equations, the laws of physics. The laws of physics describe nature in terms of quarks, quantum fields, bosons, etc.; all these terms actually refer to abstract mathematical models which are the elements of a complex mathematical theory. Unless you consider the success of the laws of physics, which represents the basis of modern technological progress, as an unbelievably lucky series of coincidences, you should agree with the idea that our mathematical models describe the intimate structure of the universe; such structure would consist of abstract mathematical relations, because this is what the laws of physics express.
Since mathematical equations and mathematical models are abstract concepts, which cannot exist independently from a mind conceiving them, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of an intelligent and conscious God, conceiving it according to such mathematical structures.
Click to expand...
Michael74 said:
Yes, intelligent design makes more sense, given the order and complexity extant.
Click to expand...
Mmarco said:
I would like to clarify that my faith in Christ is certainly not based on my scientific knowledges; I believed in Christ long before I became a physiscist and the reason why I believe in Christ is essentially that I find His teachings fully convincing.
Nevertheless, studying physics I have found a striking confirmation of some of my beliefs.
I also know that atheists would not accept my argument because they reject "a priori" the idea of God, and therefore they reject any valid argument about God's existence.
Click to expand...
Christ_empowered said:
i find it compelling, because...I'm a Christian. you can always plant seeds with unbelievers.
Click to expand...
amen
 
It's about time science acknowledged that God can and does exist, even if scientific observation can't be the route to finding Him and knowing Him.

I like the math model idea. Don't know if it'll show that God exists or not, because most of that math is above my head. But if you can see the connection and it's your field of study, then that's hope for others to do the same. Reminds me of something I read in a book called "Mere Christianity," about why we have morals and a conscience for right and wrong, instead of just accepting the world as it is.

For me the proof of God in scientific pramaters is based on the complexities of life, like anatomy alone or ecosystems fitting together; and at the same time looking at earth and space. Outside of earth is a desert of life that we can't find it. Why it exists on earth so abundantly instead of falling apart should show not just a designer of life, but also a protector.

Glad you found sense of God in physics. Hope there will be more of that in any field of learning.
 
Mmarco said:
Hi everybody!

As a physiscist, I would like to share what I think is the strongest rational argument for God's existence, i.e. the mathematical representability of the natural laws. A well-known result of modern science is that natural phenomena can be sytematically predicted through a specific system of few mathematical equations, the laws of physics. The laws of physics describe nature in terms of quarks, quantum fields, bosons, etc.; all these terms actually refer to abstract mathematical models which are the elements of a complex mathematical theory. Unless you consider the success of the laws of physics, which represents the basis of modern technological progress, as an unbelievably lucky series of coincidences, you should agree with the idea that our mathematical models describe the intimate structure of the universe; such structure would consist of abstract mathematical relations, because this is what the laws of physics express.
Since mathematical equations and mathematical models are abstract concepts, which cannot exist independently from a mind conceiving them, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of an intelligent and conscious God, conceiving it according to such mathematical structures.
Click to expand...
Of course.
Everything created has to have a creator.
Only God is not created....We know Him as the first cause.

Do you know this mathematician?
He's Christian and many times states what you have stated above: Stephen C. Meyer...


 
Mmarco said:
Hi wondering,

I didn't know Meyer.

Thank you for the link.
Click to expand...
I did want to make an observation regarding science and God.

First of all I taught catechism here in the Catholic Church for 6 years and had to stop about 3 or 4 years ago. I was taught that the CC does not consider science an enemy, as should no church because science explains HOW something came about and God tells us WHY something came about.

I remember learning and always reading that science had no problem believing God didn't exist (science in general -- not all scientists are atheist) because the universe ALWAYS EXISTED. So, basically, we didn't know what ALWAYS meant, no understanding of ETERNAL, but science was happy.

Alas, the big bang theory has been "proven" to be correct and is, today, accepted as common knowledge. Is this good for science?
Are they happy the big bang theory has been accepted?

NO!

And why not?

Because now science DOES have a problem.
If the known universe came into existance...the HOW did it begin?
Science confirms that SOMETHING cannot come from NOTHING.

So now they have a problem.
What to do?
How about trying to show that something CAN come from nothing!!

Enter Lawrence Krauss...I believe he's a physicist Not sure.
He says something could come from nothing.

I do wonder what will be next.
He can be found on YouTube and might make some interesting listening for some here.


 
Mmarco

Just wanted to tell you that if you don't TAG someone, they will not see your reply to them.

I saw the above by mistake....

You have to click on REPLY at the lower right hand side of the post to which you want to reply.

This way, the person will know you're writing to them.
Then just click on POST REPLY at the bottom.
:)
 
I would like to add some considerations about the relation between science and religion.

Some scientists, supported also by mass media, has spread false information about science, as if science contradicts the belief in the existence of God or that the concept of an intelligent Creator is no longer necessary to explain the universe.

The truth is exactly the opposite. In fact, the first scientists (Galileo and Newton) who began to use mathematical equations to express the natural laws, were christians and they justified their choice because they believed that the universe was a creation of an intelligent God who created the universe using rational and mathematicle principles. Their intuition has certainly revealed one of the most fruitful intuitions in history and all scientists now accept the idea that the natural laws can be expressed through matemathical equations, even if some of them (atheists and agnostics) seem not to understand the theological implications of this fact.

I do not think that the problem is only to explain how the universe came into existence, but also to explain how it go on existing. In fact, according to our scientific knowledges, the existence of every single atom implies complex and abstract mathematical relations; has matter ever studied maths?

All we know about the universe is based on our scientific knowledges, which describe the universe as the realization of abstract complex mathematical models.
Since mathematical models can exist only as abstract concepts in a thinking mind, this indicates the existence of an intelligent Creator.

I do not think that this can be considered a proof of God's existence, and, as a believer, I do not need such proof; however I think that science strongly supports the belief that the universe is the creation of an intelligent God.
 
Mmarco

Your above post if very reassuring and comforting.

I hope you're speaking for the scientific community...and not only scientists in Italy.

Perhaps there are very outspoken scientists in the USA that are atheist or agnostic, and so we hear THEM more than the ones that believe in God and that are either theists or deists.

Maybe some of those that believe in an intelligent being are beginning to speak up? Such as Stephen Meyer or James Tour?
(James Tour is a chemist).

I HOPE SO!
 
i think also a problem now is that there's been a rise in -vocal- , sometimes seemingly in your face, screaming, strident atheism. militant atheism, even. its not just the scientific community, either. :-(
 
Mmarco said:
All we know about the universe is based on our scientific knowledges, which describe the universe as the realization of abstract complex mathematical models.
Since mathematical models can exist only as abstract concepts in a thinking mind, this indicates the existence of an intelligent Creator.
Click to expand...

Interesting idea. You touch on some things St. Thomas Aquinas considered in his Five Ways to Prove God.
 
Mmarco said:
Since mathematical equations and mathematical models are abstract concepts, which cannot exist independently from a mind conceiving them, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of an intelligent and conscious God, conceiving it according to such mathematical structures.
Click to expand...
Mathematical equations describe nature as best we can determine. The nature it describes exists whether there is a mind to conceive them or not. If the universe were different then the mathematical relationships would be different.

How many people believe in a god because of this argument? Why is god so difficult to discover?
 
Clizby said:
If the universe were different then the mathematical relationships would be different.
Click to expand...

If the universe and mathematical relationships were different, the universe would be uninhabitable by mankind. The universe is fine tuned to make it a suitable home for people.
 
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