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SDA's, JW's, Mormons, etc.
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Charlotte
Guest
Vic,
Thanks, I appreciate you posting those definitions of a cult. One thing I noticed in them, it said, "denial of the trinity", makes you a cult. I wonder if a trinitarian wrote them?
Charlotte
Thanks, I appreciate you posting those definitions of a cult. One thing I noticed in them, it said, "denial of the trinity", makes you a cult. I wonder if a trinitarian wrote them?
Charlotte
Okay, I'm going to start nit-picking. Beware 
:
I'm not accusing anybody of being part of a cult here. I'm just trying to clarify things.
Feel free to correct me if you think I need correcting.
Well, I can see how the word could be abused, but I don't think that is a good reason for not using it. Its fine if its used correctly. Some of the beliefs that "cults" have deviate from the Word of God quite a bit.
As defined by whom?
I'm not really sure why the number of them would matter.
I think that fact makes them even more dangerous. When its difficult to distinguish the bad from the good is when the worst bad is possible.
It's our souls that are on the line here, and I believe that evil is extremely subtle, sneaky, and devastating. (I've had a bit of experiance with this in the past)
By modern standards? Why are we measuring things by modern standards? Modern standards are way off. (I'm thinking of the post-modern relativistic culture we live in now). I think by Christian standards the Puritans are just fine. Maybe at the time they would of been a bit guilty of number 3 on my list, but thats about it.
Well, that depends on how you define mainstream.
If you define mainstream as people who:
1.) Accept Christ as their Saviour.
2.) Acknowledge the authority God's Holy Word (the Bible). (Acknowledging the authority of the Bible also means rejecting new revelations, changes, or add-ons)
3.) Spread the good news
4.) Are genuinely honest with their doctrines
5.) Respect the early church
6.) Are basically sound in their biblical and theological ideas.
Then yes, if you reject that, then I do not see a problem labeling them a Cult. They are not Christian. Really, it all comes down the the first two points. You either accept God's Holy Word and the saving grace of the Word incarnate, or you don't.
So, to make it even simpler, there are only two types of people in this world...
Those who believe in Truth, and those who do not.
I've always thought of a Cult as those that have used some ideas from Truth, yet never believe in Truth (who is, of course, Jesus).
: I'm not accusing anybody of being part of a cult here. I'm just trying to clarify things.
Feel free to correct me if you think I need correcting.
Well, I can see how the word could be abused, but I don't think that is a good reason for not using it. Its fine if its used correctly. Some of the beliefs that "cults" have deviate from the Word of God quite a bit.
As defined by whom?
I'm not really sure why the number of them would matter.
I think that fact makes them even more dangerous. When its difficult to distinguish the bad from the good is when the worst bad is possible.
It's our souls that are on the line here, and I believe that evil is extremely subtle, sneaky, and devastating. (I've had a bit of experiance with this in the past)
By modern standards? Why are we measuring things by modern standards? Modern standards are way off. (I'm thinking of the post-modern relativistic culture we live in now). I think by Christian standards the Puritans are just fine. Maybe at the time they would of been a bit guilty of number 3 on my list, but thats about it.
Well, that depends on how you define mainstream.
If you define mainstream as people who:
1.) Accept Christ as their Saviour.
2.) Acknowledge the authority God's Holy Word (the Bible). (Acknowledging the authority of the Bible also means rejecting new revelations, changes, or add-ons)
3.) Spread the good news
4.) Are genuinely honest with their doctrines
5.) Respect the early church
6.) Are basically sound in their biblical and theological ideas.
Then yes, if you reject that, then I do not see a problem labeling them a Cult. They are not Christian. Really, it all comes down the the first two points. You either accept God's Holy Word and the saving grace of the Word incarnate, or you don't.
So, to make it even simpler, there are only two types of people in this world...
Those who believe in Truth, and those who do not.
I've always thought of a Cult as those that have used some ideas from Truth, yet never believe in Truth (who is, of course, Jesus).
W
Wertbag
Guest
According to dictionary.com the definition of a cult is:
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
Seems to be the following of one leader rather than an organisation, his views and beliefs are what everyone must follow. That would mean Mormons are, but most of the others mentioned probably aren't.
Makes cathlics boarder line with the Pope as their one guiding leader... guess they just aren't extreme in their views, or are simply too large?
I'm always amazed by the bizarre things people can be sucked into, suicide bombing being a good example, or drinking cyanide laced cool aid why don't people see the stupidity in what they are doing with these extreme views?
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
Seems to be the following of one leader rather than an organisation, his views and beliefs are what everyone must follow. That would mean Mormons are, but most of the others mentioned probably aren't.
Makes cathlics boarder line with the Pope as their one guiding leader... guess they just aren't extreme in their views, or are simply too large?
I'm always amazed by the bizarre things people can be sucked into, suicide bombing being a good example, or drinking cyanide laced cool aid why don't people see the stupidity in what they are doing with these extreme views?
M
Monkey Del
Guest
Veritas said:Okay, I'm going to start nit-picking. Beware
I'm not accusing anybody of being part of a cult here. I'm just trying to clarify things.
Feel free to correct me if you think I need correcting.
Well, I can see how the word could be abused, but I don't think that is a good reason for not using it. Its fine if its used correctly. Some of the beliefs that "cults" have deviate from the Word of God quite a bit.
[quote:3d2ce]FACT: There are over 13000 so called "CULTS" in America.
As defined by whom?
I'm not really sure why the number of them would matter.
[/quote:3d2ce]
This is according to the FBI, I watch a report on it on the news they interviewed the Nation's leading expert after the ppl killed themselves in CA to go jion themselves on some comet....remember?
You KNOW what I meant about being HARMLESS....Jim Jones stuff...and Wacco, TX.
7.) believe in the universal church, that denomination does not matter they are all apart of the body of Christ...love, love love....
(the invisible church)....
8) accepts Baptist, Pentacostals, Non-Denoms , ect. as having salvation. (accepts the confess Jesus name to salvation doctrine.)
X
xsearnold
Guest
I think one way of distinguishing a "cult" from a Christian sect is to understand how the group considers Jesus. I confess I do not know a lot about Seventh Day Adventists, but I think they confess the Deity of Christ and acknowledge Him as the only way to the Father. If I am correct in this, then I would not consider them a cult.
However, based on what I know about Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism, I would say both qualify as cults, based on their denial of Jesus as God and as the only way to the Father.
Of course, this means that Islam is a cult, as well.
The other thing that tends to distinguish a cult is the following after a charismatic leader who, in some sense, displaces Christ as the head of the "church," or merely leads all those astray from the truth of God's Word. Joseph Smith did this for Mormons, Jim Jones did this for the cult he led. I don't know who the leaders of the other two (JW and SDA) are.
However, based on what I know about Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism, I would say both qualify as cults, based on their denial of Jesus as God and as the only way to the Father.
Of course, this means that Islam is a cult, as well.
The other thing that tends to distinguish a cult is the following after a charismatic leader who, in some sense, displaces Christ as the head of the "church," or merely leads all those astray from the truth of God's Word. Joseph Smith did this for Mormons, Jim Jones did this for the cult he led. I don't know who the leaders of the other two (JW and SDA) are.
The SDA Church teaches that we have the "truth" indicating outside their walls, truth cannot be found in other churches, as other churches do not have Ellen G. White, the Sabbath or the Investigative Judgment and Sanctuary teachings. Truth is in the Word of God, but not as interpreted by EGW.
The Seventh-day Adventists/JW's teach that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel.
The Seventh-day Adventists/JW's teach that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel.
Monkey Del wrote:
Oh, sorry, I think I misunderstood what you meant.
Okay, sounds like an alright addition to me. Although I don't really know what you mean by (accepts the confess Jesus name to salvation doctrine.)
Um, I apologize if I seem somewhat dense but are 7 and 8 what you do agree with....or don't agree with?
Oh, sorry, I think I misunderstood what you meant.
Okay, sounds like an alright addition to me. Although I don't really know what you mean by (accepts the confess Jesus name to salvation doctrine.)
Um, I apologize if I seem somewhat dense but are 7 and 8 what you do agree with....or don't agree with?
M
Monkey Del
Guest
I was being facicious...kinda..."what you are really saying is...."...Understand?
I disagree with calling anyone a cult except those that prove to be one like Jim Jones and Wacco, TX.
I disagree with you list because Not everyone can agree to what the "early Church" is. That in acts or what the RCC calls the early church.
I am saying most ppl who go around calling ppl cults do it because that group rejects them, because they only believe in there being 1 way.
Or because Heaven forbid they ask that you live by the word of God and dress by it and act by it....or they believe it, like God can heal us and we have no need of Doctors.
Am I making sense? Having a hard time expressing my thoughts.
I disagree with calling anyone a cult except those that prove to be one like Jim Jones and Wacco, TX.
I disagree with you list because Not everyone can agree to what the "early Church" is. That in acts or what the RCC calls the early church.
I am saying most ppl who go around calling ppl cults do it because that group rejects them, because they only believe in there being 1 way.
Or because Heaven forbid they ask that you live by the word of God and dress by it and act by it....or they believe it, like God can heal us and we have no need of Doctors.
Am I making sense? Having a hard time expressing my thoughts.
Monkey Del said:
Oh, okay....yeah, I understand.
Yeah, its pretty safe to say that Jim Jones and the Wacco thing were cults. Those are pretty obvious.
Well, I was thinking of people who just outright reject all of the early church. I'm not really sure what the difference is between what the RCC calls the early church and that in acts. I don't know much about this issue to tell you the truth, but it seems to me that those who disagree about the early church on this forum are just stressing different aspects of it.
Well, it is true there is only 1 way. Maybe the two groups should talk about that one way. They could end up discovering they believe in the same 1 way. Sure, there may be dissagreements on the fine points, but we are human after all.
Heh, I'm with you here.
Yes, its okay, I have a hard time not going off on tangents.
Oh, okay....yeah, I understand.Yeah, its pretty safe to say that Jim Jones and the Wacco thing were cults. Those are pretty obvious.
Well, I was thinking of people who just outright reject all of the early church. I'm not really sure what the difference is between what the RCC calls the early church and that in acts. I don't know much about this issue to tell you the truth, but it seems to me that those who disagree about the early church on this forum are just stressing different aspects of it.
Well, it is true there is only 1 way. Maybe the two groups should talk about that one way. They could end up discovering they believe in the same 1 way. Sure, there may be dissagreements on the fine points, but we are human after all.
Heh, I'm with you here.
Yes, its okay, I have a hard time not going off on tangents.
Featherbop
Member
Jason, are you trying in a way to say the SDAs are a cult because they believe Michael the Archangel is Jesus? If so, poor.
The SDAs(at least that I know) Profess Jesus to be exactly who the Bible says He is.
They keep God's real sabbath, and it is important. Unless you have no problem thumbing your nose in God's face.
Not all SDAs believe that ellen G white is a prophetess. I am undecided, but even if I did, I would have reason to do so, and even that, is not a cult.
_____
But catholics, baptists(From my area and who knows where else), mormons, and churches that are hypocritical or unbiblcal. etc.Yes.
The SDAs(at least that I know) Profess Jesus to be exactly who the Bible says He is.
They keep God's real sabbath, and it is important. Unless you have no problem thumbing your nose in God's face.
Not all SDAs believe that ellen G white is a prophetess. I am undecided, but even if I did, I would have reason to do so, and even that, is not a cult.
_____
But catholics, baptists(From my area and who knows where else), mormons, and churches that are hypocritical or unbiblcal. etc.Yes.
I don't know much about SDA's, are you SDA Featherbop?
I do not believe that what the Mormon and JW religion espouses is Christian, however, I believe there is a possibility that some people in the Mormon and JW religion may be Christian.
I'll let Paul tell you why I doubt the claims of the Mormons and the JW's
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which really is no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Galations 1:6-9
And what have the Mormons done? They have "found" another testament of Jesus. That is exactly what they call the Book of Mormon. How did they "find" this? Joseph Smith recieved a revelation from Moroni, a man.
And what about the JW's? They claim that the Bible is only correctly interpreted by the Watchtower organization.
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galations 1:10
You see, man does not interpret truth from the Bible, God does. And this is exactly where JW's miss the mark.
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it: rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. Galations 1:11,12
And that is why I believe what Paul says. It is interesting to note that neither Joseph Smith (Mormon's founder), nor Russell (JW's founder), ever even claimed that they recieved a revelation from Jesus Christ.
I do not believe that what the Mormon and JW religion espouses is Christian, however, I believe there is a possibility that some people in the Mormon and JW religion may be Christian.
I'll let Paul tell you why I doubt the claims of the Mormons and the JW's
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which really is no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Galations 1:6-9
And what have the Mormons done? They have "found" another testament of Jesus. That is exactly what they call the Book of Mormon. How did they "find" this? Joseph Smith recieved a revelation from Moroni, a man.
And what about the JW's? They claim that the Bible is only correctly interpreted by the Watchtower organization.
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galations 1:10
You see, man does not interpret truth from the Bible, God does. And this is exactly where JW's miss the mark.
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it: rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. Galations 1:11,12
And that is why I believe what Paul says. It is interesting to note that neither Joseph Smith (Mormon's founder), nor Russell (JW's founder), ever even claimed that they recieved a revelation from Jesus Christ.
Featherbop
Member
Veritas, in many ways, I can be considered an SDA. I'm bound not to agree with everything with them.
The SDAs, and me, Do not believe the false teaching that sunday is God's sabbath. Nor that making any day the sabbath other than what God said the sabbath day was.
The sabbath and the false sabbath in the end times will be very important. As far as I can tell.
People who will accept sunday or any other false sabbath as God's apparently don't care about what God says.
or prove me wrong with scripture saying sunday, or any other day besides the seventh day is God's sabbath. Anyone?
The SDAs, and me, Do not believe the false teaching that sunday is God's sabbath. Nor that making any day the sabbath other than what God said the sabbath day was.
The sabbath and the false sabbath in the end times will be very important. As far as I can tell.
People who will accept sunday or any other false sabbath as God's apparently don't care about what God says.
or prove me wrong with scripture saying sunday, or any other day besides the seventh day is God's sabbath. Anyone?
Featherbop
Member
I'm from the south.
Featherbop
Member
The southeast.
G
Gary
Guest
SDA a cult?
Firstly, the JW and Mormons are not Christian. They teach and accept a different "gospel" as Veritas has explained.
What about the SDA?
Let us consider their claim that you MUST worship on the Sabbath.
Paul told the Colossians that the Sabbath was only a “shadow†that had passed away when the “substance†came with Christ (Col. 2:16–17). Paul affirmed that the entire table of the Mosaic Law “written and engraved on stone†(which included the Sabbath law) “was passing away†(2 Cor. 3:7, 10) and found its “end†(v. 13) in Christ. The New Testament repeatedly mentions that the Old Testament Jewish Law has been fulfilled by Christ (Rom. 10:4). Because of this fulfillment, “there is a change in the law†(Heb. 7:12).
The Sabbath command is the only one of the Ten Commandments that is not restated in the context of grace in the New Testament. This is a significant omission if it is supposed to be practiced by Christians today. Rather, the New Testament sanctions the first day of the week for Christian worshipâ€â€a day which Paul himself practiced. The reasons for this are obvious. It is the day Christ arose, thus initiating the first day of the week for Christian celebration. Jesus’ first postresurrection appearances were on Sundays, thus establishing a pattern of expecting his presence on the first day of the week (cf. Mark 16:2; John 20:19, 26). Sunday is also the day the Holy Spirit baptized the disciples into the body of Christ (Acts 2:1–4; cf. 1 Cor. 12:13)â€â€providing the birthday of the Christian church.
Thus, it became the practice of the apostolic church to meet on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2). In the last book of the New Testament, John the apostle was meditating on Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,†when he received a vision of Christ (Rev. 1:10), showing that the practice continued for many decades after the time of Christ. Indeed, the Christian church has continued this practice from the first century to the present.
.
Firstly, the JW and Mormons are not Christian. They teach and accept a different "gospel" as Veritas has explained.
What about the SDA?
Let us consider their claim that you MUST worship on the Sabbath.
Paul told the Colossians that the Sabbath was only a “shadow†that had passed away when the “substance†came with Christ (Col. 2:16–17). Paul affirmed that the entire table of the Mosaic Law “written and engraved on stone†(which included the Sabbath law) “was passing away†(2 Cor. 3:7, 10) and found its “end†(v. 13) in Christ. The New Testament repeatedly mentions that the Old Testament Jewish Law has been fulfilled by Christ (Rom. 10:4). Because of this fulfillment, “there is a change in the law†(Heb. 7:12).
The Sabbath command is the only one of the Ten Commandments that is not restated in the context of grace in the New Testament. This is a significant omission if it is supposed to be practiced by Christians today. Rather, the New Testament sanctions the first day of the week for Christian worshipâ€â€a day which Paul himself practiced. The reasons for this are obvious. It is the day Christ arose, thus initiating the first day of the week for Christian celebration. Jesus’ first postresurrection appearances were on Sundays, thus establishing a pattern of expecting his presence on the first day of the week (cf. Mark 16:2; John 20:19, 26). Sunday is also the day the Holy Spirit baptized the disciples into the body of Christ (Acts 2:1–4; cf. 1 Cor. 12:13)â€â€providing the birthday of the Christian church.
Thus, it became the practice of the apostolic church to meet on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2). In the last book of the New Testament, John the apostle was meditating on Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,†when he received a vision of Christ (Rev. 1:10), showing that the practice continued for many decades after the time of Christ. Indeed, the Christian church has continued this practice from the first century to the present.
.