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Secular Music - Is it a Sin?

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Jarvis

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Depending on who you ask, different people have different beliefs when it comes to music. Whats yours?

Personally, I do think it would be wrong for a born again Christian to listen to secular music. Not only that, but I view "Christian" rock, rap and hip hop in the same light. We are told to come out of the world and be a peculiar people. How can we do that and still sound like the world?

I used to be real big on music (I wanted to be a music teacher), and I was always listening to something. I was real big on Coldplay and Foster The People. It wasn't vulgar and it didn't really promote sin, but I still felt a need to give it up shortly after I got saved.

Honestly, I think the only secular music it would be okay to listen to is works from people like Bach, Igor Stravinski, Gustav Holst, Beethoveen, etc. What do you guys think?
 
Secular is secular .... I believe this is one of those things that is individual for you, you say it is not right then stay away for some one else it can be ok... and some of it is total trash
 
I mostly listen to Christian artists (I love Christian rock), but I like a few secular artists, usually just specific songs from them. Even some artists who don't label their music as Christian and/or don't make all of their songs Christian-themed, are Christians in their personal life; like Owl City. (And some of his songs do indeed have Christian overtones.)
I'm not at all familiar with Evanescence, but I read somewhere that some of the band members are Christian.


I think claiming that listening to music, or a certain genre, or secular music in general, is a sin, is a case of man adding to God's Word something that was never actually said in the first place.
Whether it's a good idea or not is up to the individual. It's one of those things that there are naturally going to be different views on, and that should be respected.
Don't get me wrong--I do think that respectful discussion on music and movies, and how the Christian should react to them can be a good and beneficial thing. But if that's all that the church is concentrating on, they've lost sight of what's really important IMO. Some go so far as to totally demonize Christian artists and those who listen to and approve of them. The church I used to attend was one of those, and it was one of the only subjects actually preached on. Because of that, I wasn't really learning anything there.

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations."~Romans 14:1 KJV
 
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Secular is secular .... I believe this is one of those things that is individual for you, you say it is not right then stay away for some one else it can be ok... and some of it is total trash

I go by what Rebba said. It will keep you out of sin, and in the power of God every single time. Obey your conscience!!! If I have to ask if God is OK with something and I do it anyway, then no matter what it is, no matter how innocent it is (Like open a food pantry for the Poor) If I have to ask if God's OK with it and If it's His will, then I am not in faith for it. Anything that is not of faith is sin. Anything you have to ask if it's OK means you don't have a clear conscience toward God about it, so no............. For you just stay away.

Mike.
 
Personally, I do think it would be wrong for a born again Christian to listen to secular music. Not only that, but I view "Christian" rock, rap and hip hop in the same light. We are told to come out of the world and be a peculiar people. How can we do that and still sound like the world? I used to be real big on music (I wanted to be a music teacher), and I was always listening to something. I was real big on Coldplay and Foster The People. It wasn't vulgar and it didn't really promote sin, but I still felt a need to give it up shortly after I got saved. Honestly, I think the only secular music it would be okay to listen to is works from people like Bach, Igor Stravinski, Gustav Holst, Beethoveen


Hello,

I agree with most what you said, however if I had in 2008 not listened to a christian lecture on rock music by coincidence maybe I would still listen to all kind of secular music.

In this message the speaker explained how backbeat works and its negative influence in the music.
Realising that I threw away all music with backbeat (christian and secular), left only with 2 CDs from Bach.
Since then I only listen to music without backbeat, mostly works from Bach and other baroque composers.
I avoid also guys like Mozart and Beethoven which were no christians.

TomG
 
Depending on who you ask, different people have different beliefs when it comes to music. Whats yours?

Personally, I do think it would be wrong for a born again Christian to listen to secular music. Not only that, but I view "Christian" rock, rap and hip hop in the same light. We are told to come out of the world and be a peculiar people. How can we do that and still sound like the world?

I used to be real big on music (I wanted to be a music teacher), and I was always listening to something. I was real big on Coldplay and Foster The People. It wasn't vulgar and it didn't really promote sin, but I still felt a need to give it up shortly after I got saved.

Honestly, I think the only secular music it would be okay to listen to is works from people like Bach, Igor Stravinski, Gustav Holst, Beethoveen, etc. What do you guys think?

I would just gently say that this is an arbitrary selection.

One Christian's supposedly 'correct list' would not be another's.

It's the lyrics that are the most important aspect.

Blessings.
 
Techno music is a sin. :chokedup It's actually a sin to call it "music" at all.

We are told to come out of the world and be a peculiar people. How can we do that and still sound like the world?
How is music special in that regard? Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to everything else, too? Do we also need peculiar clothing, movies, computers, cars, furniture, and so on? How can we come out of the world while using the same technology and the same transportation and eating the same food?

This is not the first thread about "sinfull" music we've had lately. So it seems music is a hot topic for christians. But why is it so much hotter a topic than e.g. driving cars or reading newspapers? I've never seen any thread about "secular newspapers".
 
Romans 14 would remind us that on secondary matters, where there is not something of direct doctrinal or spiritual import at stake, believers can expect to hold a variety of views and have a variety of tastes.
 
Romans 14 would remind us that on secondary matters, where there is not something of direct doctrinal or spiritual import at stake, believers can expect to hold a variety of views and have a variety of tastes.

Amen!

Like I've said before in another thread - it's up to the individual. If the music isn't a problem for you, then by all means listen to it. If it is, then turn it off.
 
Romans 14 would remind us that on secondary matters, where there is not something of direct doctrinal or spiritual import at stake, believers can expect to hold a variety of views and have a variety of tastes.

Amen!

Like I've said before in another thread - it's up to the individual. If the music isn't a problem for you, then by all means listen to it. If it is, then turn it off.

Matthew G:

Well, exactly. Otherwise, going down this route can end up as an invitation to other people to start policing fellow-Christians as to their personal tastes in huge areas beyond music, too: e.g., whether about tattoos, ear piercings, voting in elections, and so on.

Blessings.

PS: Hope you guys are doing well!
 
Since lately there has been some mention of scientific studies about rock music and it's effect (which I'm no stranger to, although that was one area that wasn't elaborated on much while I was growing up), here's a excerpt from an article about that:
"Scientific" Studies and "Natural" Effects

Of course, there's another argument they have to fall back on: "negative natural effects" which are too subtle to be noticed.A big highlight of many of their arguments now is the appeal to "scientific" studies to prove "rock's" bad influence on everything from the heart to houseplants. This supposedly "proves" that nature favors odd-beat accented rhythms over the "twisted" rock beat, for instance.
But as with the idea that the music hampers worship, you cannot prove it in a classroom or book, and one cannot readily disprove it either. So, unchallenged, they can proclaim this with such supposed divine "authority", as if the scriptures directly dealt with the issue. As was mentioned before, to even dispute any of this, you are criticized for disputing all of these "accomplished experts" who are more "wise" than Christians who have the witness of the Spirit.
I remember first hearing something about music's effect on the heart in the late 70's. It was one of those TV news stories stuck in the middle of the broadcast that was not a top story (as if it was really a significant discovery), but was nevertheless a bit sensationalistic and designed to catch one's attention; basically a "tabloid" story. It was a speculatory study that "could" be true, but it was still just being studied; like recent stories you might hear such as "Scientists Think There May Be A Good Chance of Finding Life on Mars", "[such and such] can cause cancer" (based on lab studies with rats), or the latest diet theory.
The song featured was Glen Campbell's "Southern Nights", but unfortunately, I didn't remember what the exact findings were, or whether it was a rhythm or other elements, or a whole style that was supposedly bad, or which elements or styles were said to be bad or good. I heard nothing about this again until a full decade later when I became aware of fundamentalist rock music critics using the argument to trash all rock music and other related styles.
Rather than some universal truth, it looks more like something they heard (like I did) and seized upon in their argument, but is neither proven nor unanimously accepted. Sort of like the other myths that spread among Christian culture, that cannot be readily proven or disproven, and thus may or may not turn out to be true. (Remember the one that claimed Proctor and Gamble would add a satanic symbol to their product labels in 2000?)1
As I mentioned above, the moral impact of violence on TV and movies or the effects of overly loud music is more universally agreed on, and is also more observable, and fits more with common sense. Another one of those kind of news stories I heard recently suggests that too much TV watching may impair children's attention span, but this was another common sense effect that really figured to people all along, and now simply has more documented observational support. Certain common elements of diet also. And of course, there are the old substance abuse issues such as tobacco, alcohol and drugs. These you hear about all the time.
Once again, people may ignore these findings and still continue what they are doing, but nobody seriously denies the findings to "justify" their habits, so why would Christians deny these theories on music, if they are really as credible?
Because this particular issue is not universally known, and not unanimously proven like the others. Not all such scientific "studies" and theories are as credible as others. You can't just take anything a scientist proposes (and that the media grabs) and use it in an issue as serious as the CCM critics are making this; let alone a spiritual, moral or scriptural issue by which you denounce other Christians for erring in!
Experimental science is based on [SIZE=-1]THEORY[/SIZE], and very little is concrete; it is subject to differing interpretations. (Fundamentalists like this should know better, from their battles with evolutionism and psychology, which are also said to have been "proven" or "demonstrated" in lab studies!).
The fact that it is not documented that every listener of rock has a house full of dead plants or messed up heart rhythm shows that there are more factors to this than what is being presented here. Just how much of this syncopation, and other aspects of jazz and rock cause these effects, and how great are the effects? How loud was the rock that killed plants?
These are variables, which are by nature, relative. (It's so ironic to use relative data to try and debunk relativity in music!) The dangers of fat and sugar are well documented, and you would think just from reading, that any amount of them were poisonous, and that you should never touch the stuff. But that is not the case. Too much of them is what causes problems. That's why I would agree that extreme situations like acid rock or super-fast "thrash" need to be reconsidered, but it's actually the more mellow stuff (Amy Grant) that these critics focus on.
In fact, the popular music they criticize is very diverse in sound, and a lot of music in the categories of jazz, blues and even rock are mellow and relaxing, and even melodic. But they still find some reason to trash it; "associations" being if all else fails, or "it will lead you to the hard stuff" (But it has never led me or many others into the hard stuff!).
And even "quickening of the heart rate" and other stresses mentioned are not always bad. They occur in exercise, especially aerobic, which is good for you (and notice; rock, disco or jazz are often used in workout programs, being a good accompaniment for it). This includes many forms of dancing, as well as running, biking, sports, and regular gym calisthenics.
So just citing findings doesn't mean anything if you don't consider all sides of the picture (and this goes for the citing of scripture as well).
[FONT=Microsoft Sans serif, Helvetica, Arial] Rather than some universal truth, the "Science" studies look like a "tabloid" story CCM critics heard and seized upon in their argument, but is neither proven nor unanimously accepted. The findings, are in fact, often misinterpreted [/FONT] Another important reason it is not good to stake so much on findings like this is that they are easily misinterpreted. One study pitted the effects of "rock" against classical. Fisher cites this study making sure to point out that the scientists "originally began these experiments with the idea of disproving that rock music had a negative effect on the listener". They showed that "some musical rhythms help synchronize an organism's natural biological rhythms, thus enhancing its functioning, while other rhythms tend to clash with, or disrupt, those internal rhythms"2. This sounds like the ultimate objective, irrefutable case against rock, doesn't it?
But what was being called a "rock" beat was actually chaotic drum beats that had no rhythm at all. Of course, something like this would be likely to have a negative effect on mice, yet it was snatched up without a thought as "proof" that rock was detrimental. Is this what we call "truth"? Also, another study that said rock was "weakening" to the body also showed the same effects from wearing clothes made of synthetic material, reading silently, and just the note of C5 by itself.
This branch or research is known as "behavioral kinesiology", and is based on psychology, and lurking behind it is all sorts of New Age "holistic" concepts, similar to Chi. As I will mention again later, this is a big double standard, as fundamentalists normally reject New Age occultism along with psychology and especially "behaviorism". Yet we see they will use them to try to win this debate! This reveals something seriously wrong in the issue. They are trying to win an argument at any cost, including that of truth! Where's the "separation from error" they so criticize new-evangelicalism on? Talk about "using the world's means" to advance the Gospel!
Other studies found no difference in the different styles of music, and some even demonstrated that exercise was improved by listening to music one liked, including rock, and was distracted by listening to music one was not familiar with, including classical. (See Steve Miller, The Contemporary Christian Music Debate, p.9-21)


A couple of authors really stretch scripture by claiming Jesus condemned "vain repetition", even though He was referring to often recited long prayers, not the rhythm of music. (It's actually many traditional hymn-singers who are guilty of this.
Another cites the scripture's reference to "melodies" as proof that it is teaching that the music itself should always be simple. Right here, if this is the way people are reading Scripture, then can we trust these conclusions they are drawing?)
The concern with repetition is a supposed "hypnotic" effect. But once again, you have to take into consideration how fast the rhythms are or how frequent the measures. I can sense this hypnotic sound in styles like techno (90's electronic dance), but most other pop is not that bad.
Bob Larson in Larson's Book of Rock provides a balanced treatment of the subject of the beat and its influence, acknowledging that heavy beats can greatly capture children's minds, but without trashing all pop beats as evil in themselves. (He also gives a balanced view of CCM. Of course, he is now criticized by Cloud and others for abandoning their universal rejection of contemporary styles).
[FONT=Microsoft Sans serif, Helvetica, Arial] The factors cited in studies are variables, which are by nature, relative. It's so ironic to use relative data to try and debunk relativity in music! [/FONT] Amazingly, one author,3 after citing all of these moral, physical and scientific arguments ("you've heard it all before"), counters his own reasoning, saying that "the real issue is holiness" and that by focusing on all of these effects instead of holiness, people are actually focusing on man rather than rock's offensiveness to God: ("many are more interested in what God might permit than in how He might be pleased").
But if the whole proof of its offensiveness to God is it's negative effects (leads men to sin, plus is unnatural to boot, so it must be contrary to God), then we are right back to the question of what determines its offensiveness to God in the first place, if these aren't the right issues. This is circular argumentation. (And it's not the CCM fans who are citing scientific studies, but the critics, —i.e. this critic's own side of the debate; so who is he accusing of "focusing on these affects"?).
So it seems like these critics can't even decide amongst themselves what the real issue against rock is. They just know that God is against it for some reason or another. Conflicting arguments like this, pasted together into a grand scheme, are signs of an ultimately weak premise.
[SIZE=-1]1) The fact the Christians often fall for and pass around such myths truly makes us look foolish to the world. In this, we can say that "The Children of light" are truly often "less wise" than the children of the world, as Woetzel had earlier cited. But it's conservatives like his circle that are actually the biggest purveyors of such nonsense. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2)Lipkin, Richard, "Jarring Music Takes Toll on Mice"; Insight 4/4/88; cited in Fisher, p. 81 and Miller, p.15) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3) Peck, Rock: Making Musical Choices p.7, quoted in Fisher, Battle For Christian Music p.88-9[/SIZE]
source: http://www.erictb.info/ccm.html#science


I have no wish to turn this thread hostile--the article's tone here is a bit more hostile than I'd like--but I do think this provides some food for thought.
 
[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Interesting.

Do you think that in a few words, for everyone's convenience about this interesting subject, you could summarize maybe what the big article is trying to say?

(Of course I know generally where you, as a hard rock woman, are coming from yourself, broadly speaking.)

Blessings.
 
@questdriven :

Interesting.

Do you think that in a few words, for everyone's convenience about this interesting subject, you could summarize maybe what the big article is trying to say?

(Of course I know generally where you, as a hard rock woman, are coming from yourself, broadly speaking.)

Blessings.
The article is pointing out that the scientific studies cited by rock critics are not as conclusive, or thorough, as they make them out to be. They are not tested enough to be unanimously accepted by science, as the detrimental effects of tobacco and excessive alcohol use are.
Because this particular issue is not universally known, and not unanimously proven like the others. Not all such scientific "studies" and theories are as credible as others. You can't just take anything a scientist proposes (and that the media grabs) and use it in an issue as serious as the CCM critics are making this; let alone a spiritual, moral or scriptural issue by which you denounce other Christians for erring in!
(Above quote and following quotes from article in above post.)

Secondly, from what I'm reading, the studies did not always reach the conclusion some would have you believe they do.
Another important reason it is not good to stake so much on findings like this is that they are easily misinterpreted. One study pitted the effects of "rock" against classical. Fisher cites this study making sure to point out that the scientists "originally began these experiments with the idea of disproving that rock music had a negative effect on the listener". They showed that "some musical rhythms help synchronize an organism's natural biological rhythms, thus enhancing its functioning, while other rhythms tend to clash with, or disrupt, those internal rhythms"2. This sounds like the ultimate objective, irrefutable case against rock, doesn't it?
But what was being called a "rock" beat was actually chaotic drum beats that had no rhythm at all. Of course, something like this would be likely to have a negative effect on mice, yet it was snatched up without a thought as "proof" that rock was detrimental. Is this what we call "truth"? Also, another study that said rock was "weakening" to the body also showed the same effects from wearing clothes made of synthetic material, reading silently, and just the note of C5 by itself.
Thirdly, it is pointed out that fact that most people who listen to rock neither have a house full of dead plants nor a messed up heartbeat shows that there are more factors to consider than just whether someone listens to music with a beat or not.
The fact that it is not documented that every listener of rock has a house full of dead plants or messed up heart rhythm shows that there are more factors to this than what is being presented here. Just how much of this syncopation, and other aspects of jazz and rock cause these effects, and how great are the effects? How loud was the rock that killed plants?
These are variables, which are by nature, relative. (It's so ironic to use relative data to try and debunk relativity in music!) The dangers of fat and sugar are well documented, and you would think just from reading, that any amount of them were poisonous, and that you should never touch the stuff. But that is not the case. Too much of them is what causes problems. That's why I would agree that extreme situations like acid rock or super-fast "thrash" need to be reconsidered, but it's actually the more mellow stuff (Amy Grant) that these critics focus on.
In fact, the popular music they criticize is very diverse in sound, and a lot of music in the categories of jazz, blues and even rock are mellow and relaxing, and even melodic. But they still find some reason to trash it; "associations" being if all else fails, or "it will lead you to the hard stuff" (But it has never led me or many others into the hard stuff!).
And actually, the person who wrote this article seems to have a somewhat critical view on hard rock, admitting that "too much" beat might be detrimental.
 
The article is pointing out that the scientific studies cited by rock critics are not as conclusive, or thorough, as they make them out to be. They are not tested enough to be unanimously accepted by science, as the detrimental effects of tobacco and excessive alcohol use are.
(Above quote and following quotes from article in above post.)

Secondly, from what I'm reading, the studies did not always reach the conclusion some would have you believe they do.

Thirdly, it is pointed out that fact that most people who listen to rock neither have a house full of dead plants nor a messed up heartbeat shows that there are more factors to consider than just whether someone listens to music with a beat or not.
The fact that it is not documented that every listener of rock has a house full of dead plants or messed up heart rhythm shows that there are more factors to this than what is being presented here. Just how much of this syncopation, and other aspects of jazz and rock cause these effects, and how great are the effects? How loud was the rock that killed plants?
These are variables, which are by nature, relative. (It's so ironic to use relative data to try and debunk relativity in music!) The dangers of fat and sugar are well documented, and you would think just from reading, that any amount of them were poisonous, and that you should never touch the stuff. But that is not the case. Too much of them is what causes problems. That's why I would agree that extreme situations like acid rock or super-fast "thrash" need to be reconsidered, but it's actually the more mellow stuff (Amy Grant) that these critics focus on.
In fact, the popular music they criticize is very diverse in sound, and a lot of music in the categories of jazz, blues and even rock are mellow and relaxing, and even melodic. But they still find some reason to trash it; "associations" being if all else fails, or "it will lead you to the hard stuff" (But it has never led me or many others into the hard stuff!).
And actually, the person who wrote this article seems to have a somewhat critical view on hard rock, admitting that "too much" beat might be detrimental.
[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Thanks. I could have cut and pasted the article myself and blown it up to make it more readable, I suppose, (I don't see as well as I did, years ago), but your summary is useful.

I guess that it's a bit like defining the differences and similarities of terms such as rhythm, rock, musical time and so forth. Hard areas for people to try to engage in morally objective assessment.

Blessings.
 
@questdriven :

Thanks. I could have cut and pasted the article myself and blown it up to make it more readable, I suppose, (I don't see as well as I did, years ago), but your summary is useful.

I guess that it's a bit like defining the differences and similarities of terms such as rhythm, rock, musical time and so forth. Hard areas for people to try to engage in morally objective assessment.

Blessings.
Yeah.
Well, as a doctrinal issue, I can kinda understand where the concern is, even though I obviously don't agree with the conclusion some reach that modern music is to be avoided.
What I don't understand is trying use science to claim as proof that it is a big no-no, thoroughly tested or no. Not anymore than I'd think anyone has any doctrinal ground to condemn smoking as a sin, even though it is unanimously accepted and proven in the scientific community that it's unhealthy.

All the same, I'm kinda questioning my having posted that in this thread. I don't want anyone to feel as though they are being attacked, or that they need to defend themselves. I know I don't like feeling that.
 
[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]: Anyway, discussion is what these threads is all about. Blessings.
 
Techno music is a sin. :chokedup It's actually a sin to call it "music" at all.

We are told to come out of the world and be a peculiar people. How can we do that and still sound like the world?
How is music special in that regard? Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to everything else, too? Do we also need peculiar clothing, movies, computers, cars, furniture, and so on? How can we come out of the world while using the same technology and the same transportation and eating the same food?

This is not the first thread about "sinfull" music we've had lately. So it seems music is a hot topic for christians. But why is it so much hotter a topic than e.g. driving cars or reading newspapers? I've never seen any thread about "secular newspapers".

Those who are obsessed by Music think everyone else is as well,Music is part of life but in our entertainment crazed culture it along with sports and other amusements defines life for many and everything is seen through it's prism.I suspect disagreements among Christians about music is 10 to one or more than those about doctrinal truths and other things of substance.
 
Honestly, I think the only secular music it would be okay to listen to is works from people like Bach, Igor Stravinski, Gustav Holst, Beethoveen, etc. What do you guys think?
This is a matter of your personal taste and preference, not a matter of spiritual right or wrong. (You asked what I think.)
 
We are told to come out of the world and be a peculiar people. How can we do that and still sound like the world?
Out of the several verses that speak of this, none are telling us that we can't use the things of the world or enjoy any of them just because others who are non-believers also do them. Do you drive a car? So do most non-believers (and many use them for sinful purposes) so are Christians supposed to stop driving too? (Yes, some believe this is true, so I'm not exaggerating.) Do you wear clothing similar to your secular neighbors? How can you "come out of the world and be a peculiar people" if you dress just like the world? Do you eat the same kinds of food as non-Christians? Do you speak the same language as your neighbors, or do you only speak in the old English of the 1611 KJV Bible? How can you "come out of the world and be a peculiar people" if you talk and eat just like a non-Christian? Do you live in a house, apartment, or some other kind of dwelling similar to your non-Christian neighbors? Jesus didn't. so would you agree that to "come out of the world and be a peculiar people" we should also shun living in houses because that's what "the world" does?

All of these things, and more, are things that some Christians actually believe must be avoided based on this idea of not being part of the world, and these things are no different from what type of music we listen too. Scripture never tells us to not live in the world, using and enjoying many of the things that the world (which, by the way was God's creation for us) provides. Those various verses that speak of this are talking about being spiritually separated from the spiritual ways of non-christians. It is quite normal for scripture to refer to "the world" when it is referring to spiritual matters. When we are told to "come out of the world and be a peculiar people" this is not saying we are expected to cut ourselves off from everything that a non-christian would use or do.
 
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