Sharia Law

[Davies]

When the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt says it only wants to institute 'basic' sharia law, what do they mean? The article goes on to say the party respects the rights of people of other religions, but I haven't heard a Muslim not say that, and yet, look at the history of the treatment of non-Muslims. I suppose no one could have seen the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, or is that democracy?

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-4156520,00.html

- Davies

 

[Mike]

Muslims have a way of systematically breaking the culture of a nation, usurping its leadership, and establishing Sharia law. Look at Afghanistan. Their goal never seems to be to live within the society that they immigrate to and live within the law. It's to change everything. I see the impact they have in France and the U.K., and it gives me concern about my country. We're further behind the curve, but they do seem to be making inroads.

 

[Davies]

Mike,

It's interesting that in America, there is almost this sacred respect for the Muslim faith, while at the same time you can't go through the day without hearing the use of the words Christ or God in an irreverent way. It's just when you hear on the news the phony reports that say the people of Egypt want democracy, I think to myself, wow, how can they think that? The thing that tempers my response to all the nonesense I see is when I remember or experience my own stupidity, and think, what am I doing?

- Davies

 

[jasoncran]

sharia law and pluralism dont coexist easily.

 

[Stormcrow]

sharia law and pluralism dont coexist easily.

If by "easily" you mean "not at all", I would have to agree.

 

[jasoncran]

If by "easily" you mean "not at all", I would have to agree.

correct. for one to be a christian in iran its simply allowed only on paper.

 

[kidcanman]

When the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt says it only wants to institute 'basic' sharia law, what do they mean?

When Muslims speak of Sharia they are not speaking of laws that are found in the Quran and Ahadith exclusively. Sharia incorporates the Quran, Ahadith, and the opinions of scholars. So when the Muslim Brotherhood stated that they only want to institute "basic" Sharia law, the implication to me is that they only want to incorporate the laws that are "Obligatory", according to the Quran and Ahadith, and that they will leave all other current laws in place. For example the Quran does not state that women should wear a vale. Ahadith do state this. But nowhere in Islamic doctrine does it state that women should be punished for not wearing a vale. So I assume that a law like that would not be incorporated into "basic" Sharia.

The article goes on to say the party respects the rights of people of other religions, but I haven't heard a Muslim not say that, and yet, look at the history of the treatment of non-Muslims.

The history of treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim countries is just as good and in many places better than the treatment of minorities in many Christian countries.

I suppose no one could have seen the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, or is that democracy?

The rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was obvious. Islamic Law is what people desire in Islamic countries; contrary to the Western Media's story line. Therefore if you remove the dictators that the West helped to put in place, and incorporate democracy, just about every majority Muslim country in the world will vote for the pro-Islam party.

 

[Davies]

kidcanman,

It will be interesting to see how things fair for the Egyptians. I see the pipeline from Egypt to Israel and Jordan keeps getting attacked. What was at least a tolerant relationship between Israel and Egypt seems to be evaporating. Perhaps it's a small minority that are making things worse and not the Muslim Brotherhood. I think I read the other day, Hamas was being allowed to move their bomb factories in the Sinai which is under Egyptian soveriegnty, I think. Hamas hasn't really proven to be a partner of peace with the Israelis.

"The history of treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim countries is just as good and in many places better than the treatment of minorities in many Christian countries." - The Coptic Christians have suffered many setbacks during this turmoil, but again, I suppose we can refer to that small minority of not-so-peaceful Muslims.

The exodus of Christians from Irag has been a terrible hardship for thousands. Is it up to 200,000 yet? I'm afraid Syria and Iran have a new brother country.

Personally, I don't hold much optimism for the Middle East, not that we are doing much better.

- Davies

 

[kidcanman]

kidcanman,

It will be interesting to see how things fair for the Egyptians. I see the pipeline from Egypt to Israel and Jordan keeps getting attacked. What was at least a tolerant relationship between Israel and Egypt seems to be evaporating. Perhaps it's a small minority that are making things worse and not the Muslim Brotherhood. I think I read the other day, Hamas was being allowed to move their bomb factories in the Sinai which is under Egyptian soveriegnty, I think. Hamas hasn't really proven to be a partner of peace with the Israelis.

If you think Hamas has been more violent than the Israelis you are mistaken. Who has more bomb factories in Sinai? I don't wish to argue about which side has been more violent so I will concede that both sides have been violent. But to imply that Israel has been peaceful and Hamas violent is a joke.

The Coptic Christians have suffered many setbacks during this turmoil, but again, I suppose we can refer to that small minority of not-so-peaceful Muslims.

Of course this is just propaganda. No doubt there have been incidents of attacks on people from different groups. There is a revolution occurring. But I have not heard of any large setbacks happening to the Christians in Egypt.

The exodus of Christians from Irag has been a terrible hardship for thousands. Is it up to 200,000 yet? I'm afraid Syria and Iran have a new brother country.

Who do you blame for your fellow Christians having to leave a war zone? Muslims? No. Blame George Bush and as he put it his, "mission from God". As you inferred, the Christians were living there peacefully. But now since George Bush attacked, 200,000 have left due to the war that he started. I wonder how many Iraqi Muslims have died as a result of George Bush's, "mission from God"?

 

[Davies]

Is 'honour killings' a part of shria law, or is it taught in the Koran. I don't know myself, but I think we know it's practiced across the Muslim world, and I think even in other religions.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.9d58c31cd5bdcb7896237b12cacad3c9.631

The article is titled 675 Pakistan 'honour killing' victims: commission.

"Despite some progress on better protecting women's rights, activists say the government needs to do far more to prosecute murderers in cases largely dismissed by police as private, family affairs.

"A total of 675 women and girls were killed in the name of honour across Pakistan from January to September," a senior official in the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan told AFP."

"They included at least 71 victims under the age of 18."

"Around 450 of the women killed from January to September were accused of having "illicit relations" and 129 of marrying without permission."

"Some victims were raped or gangraped before being killed, he said. At least 19 were killed by their sons, 49 by their fathers and 169 by their husbands."

These were just some of the findings the article highlights. This is the nature of man, and not indicative of just Muslims. The depths of sin found in us all could lead us to the same road as the Pakistanis. To some, this might strike the ear a little far fetched, but then I would say you haven't explored or examined your sin in the light of God's word. Man's heart is so wicked, I'm willing to guess the men who committed these 'honour murders' would tell you they didn't do anything wrong.

Jeremiah 17:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9“ The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?




- Davies

 

[reba]

Muslims have a way of systematically breaking the culture of a nation, usurping its leadership, and establishing Sharia law. Look at Afghanistan. Their goal never seems to be to live within the society that they immigrate to and live within the law. It's to change everything. I see the impact they have in France and the U.K., and it gives me concern about my country. We're further behind the curve, but they do seem to be making inroads.

Right on Mike.
I see this slowly making inroads thorough out the Christian communities including this one.

 

[kidcanman]

Davies as I implied, "Sharia" is a system of laws that incorporates the Quran, ahadith, and the opinion of scholars. Therefore it varies from region to region. Honor killings are not condoned in the Quran. I'm sure people practice "honor killings" all over the world but It does not sound logical that any Muslim country would incorporate that type of practice into law.

You asked the question as if you did not know, but then you asserted that the practice is not indicative of just Muslims. Which means that you have asserted that the practice is indicative of Muslims, but not just Muslims. Even though you have already admited that you don't know if it is condoned by the Quran or Sharia.

The Democratic Republic of Congo is a 90% Christian nation. I would like to point out to you that according to the Amnesty International Blog Website, "an ongoing war (in Congo) has featured a brutal and strategic campaign of sexual violence targeted at women, from toddlers to the elderly. Armed militias and members of state forces are notorious for brutal gang rapes as well as sexual and human trafficking.

In addition to conflict-related violence, which is largely associated with the easternmost provinces, a recent analysis of a 2007 household survey finds more than 1,100 women are raped every day in the Congo, nationwide."

Like you said. I'm willing to guess the men who committed these brutal gang rapes would tell you they didn't do anything wrong.

Even with all this going on I know that it would not be fair for me to ask if rape is O.K. according to Christianity.

Should I make a statement like, "rape is not just indicative of Christianity"?

Of course I shouldn't.

 

[Davies]

kidcanman,

When the local authorities say that the honour killing is a family affair and don't prosecute the guilty, then you can say there is a fundamental breakdown of the law, at least any law that has any value. Why is this practice of honour killing even practiced and condoned? This is very telling of the nature of man no matter where you find him.

- Davies

 

[kidcanman]

Davies,

The Christians in these countries also practice honor killings.
You tell me why the Christians in these countries condone the practice of honor killings and I will tell you why the Muslims condone it. Telling of the nature of man indeed.

 

[Stormcrow]

"Honor killings" are an unfortunate remnant of the Law of Moses, and proof - once again - that Mohammed "borrowed" much of his theology for Islam from Judaism.

The "honor killers" justify their actions from the following verses:

{12} "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. Exodus 20:12 (NASB)

{17} "He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. Exodus 21:17 (NASB)


{9} 'If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him. Leviticus 20:9 (NASB)

Unfortunately, "dishonoring" a parent in Islamic circles has come down to mean anything such allegedly aggrieved parents and the Imams want it to mean, including dating outside the faith and converting to Christianity or Judaism.

Here is Islam's sickening and disgusting legacy for all to see and one reason why I abhor this so-called "religion of peace:"

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/03/honor-killing-islams-gruesome-gallery.html

By the way: Christians and Jews can point to the New Testament and the example of Christ as to why honor killing is no longer practiced in Judaism. There is no more Biblical rationale for such a practice and those who commit murder - for any reason - are not fit for the Kingdom of God.

Islam is mired in pre-Christian beliefs and superstitions. The fact that a Muslim would try to justify honor killing in their own religion by making the absurd claim that "Christians do it, too" is telling. How can you claim Islam to be superior to every other religion when the only defense you have for it is that you're only doing what you accuse other religions of doing?

"You, too!" is a statement of equality, not superiority.

All things being "equal", I'll stick with the Prince of Peace, not the "Pretender of Peace."

 

[Davies]

Stormcrow,

When you start to put a face to the victims, then the horrific nature of the crime becomes a hundred times repulsive. I very much agree with you, the civil law under the Law of Moses is no longer valid for people today, we can see what happens when people try to live under that code, or some semblance thereof.

kidcanman,

Since it seems we both agree honor killings are wrong, I would still like to know why you think the practice is condoned. I'll give you my take. The reason the practice of honor killings is practiced and condoned is because the nature of man is depraved. There is nothing good in man whatsoever, and left outside of the influence of God, man will do anything his imagination will allow him. The practice of this barbaric behavior is a clear indication the people who do them are dead in there sins despite what label we put on them.

- Davies

 

[kidcanman]

Davies,

Stormcrow did not put, "a face to the victims".

There is no reason to believe the stories on the website that Stormcrow linked. The author of the website did not provide any evidence to show that the stories are true.

I would still like to know why you think the practice is condoned.

I think that your purpose behind this question is to make a point about how Christian doctrine makes sense.

I obviously don't agree with you and I have no problem answering your question.

However you still have not answered my question that I posed via pm. If you want to discuss doctrine, lets continue it there. Or else we can start a separate thread.

 

[Davies]

I think that your purpose behind this question is to make a point about how Christian doctrine makes sense.

I obviously don't agree with you and I have no problem answering your question.

However you still have not answered my question that I posed via pm. If you want to discuss doctrine, lets continue it there. Or else we can start a separate thread.

kidcanman,

When you say you don't agree with me, what don't you agree with and why? Also, in answer to your question or demand, "You tell me why the Christians in these countries condone the practice of honor killings and I will tell you why the Muslims condone it.," I said:

"The reason the practice of honor killings is practiced and condoned is because the nature of man is depraved. There is nothing good in man whatsoever, and left outside of the influence of God, man will do anything his imagination will allow him. The practice of this barbaric behavior is a clear indication the people who do them are dead in there sins despite what label we put on them."

Whether a person professes Christ or Mohammed, it doesn't matter. They are dead in their sins who practice such behavior.

The research the article wrote about provided information that indicates the local authorities did not do anything punitive with regard to a number of cases sighting they did not want to be involved in family affairs for who knows what reason. I suppose you could dismiss the article's research, but I don't think we would dismiss the practice of honor killings would we?

- Davies

 

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow did not put, "a face to the victims".

There is no reason to believe the stories on the website that Stormcrow linked. The author of the website did not provide any evidence to show that the stories are true.

Not that you would've accepted it if she did. You would've found yet another excuse to dismiss it.

You're in denial and - as we all know - "denial" isn't just a river in Egypt.

 

[kidcanman]

Davies you stated that we both agree that honor killings are wrong. Then you asked for my opinion as to why they are condoned.

This is an odd question to me. The reason honor killings are condoned is similar to the reason any other egregious sin is condoned. Do you need my opinion to answer this question?

Unless you think that the reason has something to do with Islamic culture or else you wish to explain to me the "true" reason (i.e. Christian doctrine) I don't understand why you asked this question.

As far as the article that Stormcrow linked. My point is that I don't trust that those stories are stories about honor killings.

I did not "dismiss" the article. I went to the site. I read the stories. I followed the links to the first two stories and found that the killings in the stories were in fact not "honor killings". And so I have no reason to believe that the killings in the remaining stories were "honor killings". The stories are not credible.