Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
jasoncran
Member
yes, but in some countries and in Japan its more practical to be creameated. thats the point.Drew said:
for me coming home from war all that's left me maynot be viewed in a casket, yet my wife may want to have something say goodbye to and remember me.
i have a fellow soldier that was killed in war, all that was left of him was put in a bucket and carried back to base!
if i die from war like that, bruised and unreconginazable and also so hideous that viewing isnt possible then by all means cremate me. some of us wont simply die peacufully we may die a horrible death.
so cremation may be the better way. yes i understand that you seem to have a hang up with that message of sending that the physical doesnt matter. but i dont have that hangup.I wont force that on others to mandatorially be buried or cremated when therers no specefic commandment
Drew
Member
I have no idea where you, Nick, and perhaps others get this idea that "if there is no commandment about "x" in the Bible, then God does not have an opinion about x".jasoncran said:
Imagine that someone digs up some piece of pottery that has some account of biblical events inscribed on it. Is there a commandment forbidding the destruction of such an item? No there is not. Does that mean its OK to destroy it? Of course not. The item tells a story about God and His work in the world.
As for the rest of your comment, I have no idea why you think it is acceptable practice to simply ignore arguments that challenge your position, as you have done repeatedly in interactions with me in other threads. I made a coherent argument, Jason. And you have basically not engaged it. Its interesting how an unchallenged argument gets magically transformed into a "hangup".
Lewis
Member
My grand dad, the first to be cremated in the family, my fathers dad, told me that he did not want to go down in the ground and rot, he died in 1976, some people just don't want to go down there. Did you all read my last article up there ? Those are some of the reasons, people don't want to go down there. I mean even if you get a strong solution of embalming fluid, you will lay down there for about 35 years, looking like leather, and with today's embalming in the US, you will start to turn into liquid in a few weeks, and in a sealed casket even faster. God can still get to you I don't care what form you are in, nothing is completely destroyed it just changes forms.
jasoncran
Member
first things drew, i apoligize, second, you tend be more for focused on the hear and now then the that next world. should we also use crygonenics?
I think planned funeral arangements is fine and example to the lost. it shows common sense. I dont want to cause an extra burden on my spouse when i die. for expample the average funeral 10 grand, the cost of cremation half that. I have life insurance out the gazoo, but should i keel over this second most of that will pay the house off and give my spouse some extra spending money after all the bills are paid off. Hard to live off 1145.00 a month disability. I make far more then her.
for me cremation is the most practical choice. any money that my wife can use to live off of all the better. so please.
i dont lay burdens on others, sure i could
such as these
it's not christian like to go to these secular movies
nor listen to secular music
and watch tv
avoid competive sports
avoid watching any sports
(see above)
i was called into some of that( the secular music)
this is for my walk others may not reach that level of maturity.
I think planned funeral arangements is fine and example to the lost. it shows common sense. I dont want to cause an extra burden on my spouse when i die. for expample the average funeral 10 grand, the cost of cremation half that. I have life insurance out the gazoo, but should i keel over this second most of that will pay the house off and give my spouse some extra spending money after all the bills are paid off. Hard to live off 1145.00 a month disability. I make far more then her.
for me cremation is the most practical choice. any money that my wife can use to live off of all the better. so please.
i dont lay burdens on others, sure i could
such as these
it's not christian like to go to these secular movies
nor listen to secular music
and watch tv
avoid competive sports
avoid watching any sports
(see above)
i was called into some of that( the secular music)
this is for my walk others may not reach that level of maturity.
jasoncran
Member
let me ask you this drew, with the advent of cryogenics and the expermentaion on medical nanites, yes we are reasearch that.
should we then preserve our body?
i dont see the logic(biblical) into hanging on to a corrupted thing. our bodies will die, they arent going to be in the new kingdom as the same. they will be different. look at the verse on that.
no blood,(no disease) blood is mainly for the cleansin of contements then the nourishment
i may be wrong on that, i heard it from a pastor, skip hitzig.
he was talking about the resurected bodies. if this is so why would get the old ones back.
should we then preserve our body?
i dont see the logic(biblical) into hanging on to a corrupted thing. our bodies will die, they arent going to be in the new kingdom as the same. they will be different. look at the verse on that.
no blood,(no disease) blood is mainly for the cleansin of contements then the nourishment
i may be wrong on that, i heard it from a pastor, skip hitzig.
he was talking about the resurected bodies. if this is so why would get the old ones back.
Lewis
Member
Talk about spending to much money on a funeral, make sure you read this link, so that you will know, how much to spend on yours and your relatives funerals, this is must read stuff.Caroline H said:Drew said:
I understand what you are saying, and I do respect that.But I do think that while you feel that it sends the wrong message to the world, others may not agree. Personally, I don't see it that way at all. Happyjoy did raise a point that I have pondered before... wouldn't it be better for us to not waste soooo muuuuch money on embalming and burials in coffins that cost as much as a car? In my opinion that sends a bad message to the world, because people are dying and starving and in need of help and here we are burying 1000's of $$'s with our loved one.
It is called Funeral Ripoffs.
http://www.funerals-ripoffs.org/-3dCask1.htm
VertigoAge
Member
If our bodies are going to be refashioned for Heaven, God can just build us from the designs that He stores in His infinite memory. I think it's a little superstitious to think that we need to preserve our current bodies, and I'd hate to see everyone start cryogenically freezing themselves, as someone said. Of course we don't know for sure, but I like to think that our glorified bodies will be made of different "stuff" anyway... just using the same blueprint.
. I agree.
Drew
Member
In case some of you ascribe such view to me - although you would need to be deliberately obtuse to think so - I do not ground my objection to cremation in the view that we "need" our original bodies to be resurrectedVertigoAge said:
The problem is the message that it sends to the world - that God considers the physical to be of "secondary" value.
jasoncran
Member
how so, i dont see it that way. if we look at how he judged at times, he slew by fire and hail. that heat by the judgement of God at sodom and gommorah wasnt exactly low temp.
a cigarette lighter flame is 1500 degrees f, while weilding is much higher, add some massive flammable materials you can get up to 10000 degree f. enough to render the body highly unrecognizable in a few hours.
a cigarette lighter flame is 1500 degrees f, while weilding is much higher, add some massive flammable materials you can get up to 10000 degree f. enough to render the body highly unrecognizable in a few hours.
Drew
Member
I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible and I politely suggest that the text itself nowhere sustains or supports the "primacy" of the "spiritual" over the "physical".Nick said:
I politely suggest that, like all of us in the "west", you have been heir to Greek dualistic ideas - the notion that the "spiritual" is superior to the "physical" that you are retro-jecting into the Bible.
I suspect you will be able to produce no texts that elevate the spiritual over the physical. And before you reach for texts that speak of the status of flesh, I politely suggest that you make sure you know the author (e.g. Paul) really means by that term.
jasoncran
Member
for the exercising of the flesh profiteth little.. that verse goes on to say that its important to be wise in spritual matters.
that's what is more important.
if you are saying this because all the pagan origins of the cremation. they on that note why are celebrating easter on a day that was originally used for the worship of astarte.
this body is dying, and will be done upon our death. why are going to preserve it after death. all the process of nature will cause the same effect as cremation
my stepchildren literally carry their dad's cremated remains with them wherever they go, so as to remind them of who they are.
if you really want to be true to hebrew tradition then burial should be done in a mauselom and not in the ground.
that's what is more important.
if you are saying this because all the pagan origins of the cremation. they on that note why are celebrating easter on a day that was originally used for the worship of astarte.
this body is dying, and will be done upon our death. why are going to preserve it after death. all the process of nature will cause the same effect as cremation
my stepchildren literally carry their dad's cremated remains with them wherever they go, so as to remind them of who they are.
if you really want to be true to hebrew tradition then burial should be done in a mauselom and not in the ground.
Lewis
Member
Human Decomposition
subjecting the body to fire, avoids all of the stuff below, except from the time of death to the burning.
Decomposition or rotting is the process by which tissues of a dead organism break down into simpler forms of matter. The process is essential for new growth and development of living organisms because it recycles the finite matter that occupies physical space in the biome. Bodies of living organisms begin to decompose shortly after death. It is a cascade of processes that go through distinct phases. It may be categorised in two stages by the types of end products. The first stage is characterized by the formation of liquid materials; flesh or plant matter begin to decompose. The second stage is limited to the production of vapors. The science which studies such decomposition generally is called taphonomy from the Greek word taphos, which means grave. Besides the two stages mentioned above, historically the progression of decomposition of the flesh of dead organisms has been viewed also as four phases:
Human decomposition
Stages
Once death occurs, human decomposition takes place in stages. The process of tissue breakdown may take from several days up to years. At all stages of decomposition, insect activity occurs on the body as detailed below.
Fresh
The fresh stage of decomposition occurs during the first few days following the death. There are no physical signs of decomposition during this time. However, homeostasis of the body has ceased, allowing cellular and soft tissue changes to occur because of the process of autolysis, the destruction of cells and organs due to an aseptic chemical process. At this point, the body enters algor mortis, the cooling of the body's temperature to that of its surroundings. When the body’s cells reach the final stage of autolysis, an anaerobic environment is created, that is, an environment wherein oxygen is not present. This allows the body’s normal bacteria to break down the remaining carbohydrates, proteins, and lipids. The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition.[1]
Substances produced during the fresh stage of decomposition attract a variety of insects. Diptera insects begin to lay their eggs on the body during this stage, especially members of the Calliphoridae family of insects.[2] If the body is on the ground or buried in soil there is also considerable insect activity by the insects that live in the soil around the body. The reasoning for this is simple: A dead human body serves as an excellent source of decaying matter to feed on, in a very hospitable environment.
Putrefaction
Odor, color changes, and bloating of the body during decomposition are the results of putrefaction. The lower part of the abdomen turns green due to bacteria activity in the cecum. Bacteria break down hemoglobin into sulfhemoglobin, which causes the green color. A formation of gases enters the abdomen which forces liquids and feces out of the body. The gases also enter the neck and face, causing swelling of the mouth, lips, and tongue. Due to this swelling and misconfiguration of the face, identification of the body can be difficult. Bacteria also enter the venous system causing blood to hemolyze. This leads to the formation of red streaks along the veins. This color soon changes to green, through a process known as marbelization. It can be seen on the shoulders, chest and shoulder area, and thighs. The skin can develop blisters containing serous fluid. The skin also becomes fragile, leading to skin slippage, making it difficult to move a body. Body hair comes off easily. The color change of the discoloration from green to brown marks the transition of the early stage of putrefaction to the advanced decompositional stages.
During the putrefaction stage of decomposition the majority of insect activity again comes from members of the Calliphoridae family, and includes Formicidae, Muscidae, Sphaeroceridae, Silphidae, Lepidoptera, Hymenoptera, Sarcophagidae, Histeridae, Staphylinidae, Phalangida, Piophilidae, Araneae, Sepsidae, and Phoridae. As with the fresh stage of decomposition if the body is on the ground or buried in soil there is also considerable insect activity by the soil-inhabiting arthropods.
Black putrefaction
After the body goes through the bloating stage it begins the black putrefaction stage. At this point the body cavity ruptures, the abdominal gases escape and the body darkens from its greenish color. These activities allow for a greater invasion of scavengers, and insect activity increases greatly. This stage ends as the bones become apparent, which can take anywhere from 10 to 20 days after death depending on region and temperature. This period is also dependent on the degree to which the body is exposed.
During the black putrefaction stage of decomposition, insects that can be found living in the body are Calliphoridae larvae, Staphylinidae, Histeridae, Gamasid mites, Ptomaphila, Trichopterygidae, Piophilid larvae, Parasitic wasps, Staphylinid larvae, Trichopterygid larvae, Histerid larvae, Ptomaphila larvae, Dermestes, Tyroglyphid mites, Tineid larvae, and the Dermestes larvae. Some insects can also be found living in the soil around the body such as Isopoda, Collembola, Dermaptera, Formicidae, Pseudoscorpiones, Araneae, Plectochetos, Acari, Pauropoda, Symphyla, Geophilidae, and Protura. The types of insects will differ based on where the body is, although Diptera larvae can be found feeding on the body in almost all cases.
Butyric fermentation
After the early putrefaction and black putrefaction phases have taken place, the body begins mummification, in which the body begins to dry out. The human carcass is first mummified, and then goes through adipocere formation. Adipocere (grave wax) formation refers to the loss of body odor and the formation of a cheesy appearance on the cadaver. Mummification is considered a post-active stage because there is less definite distinction between changes and they are indicated by reduced skin, cartilage, and bone. Mummification is also indicated when all of the internal organs are lost due to insect activity.
Insects that can be found on the body during mummification include most of the same insects as in putrefaction stage, but also include Acarina, Nitidulidae, Cleridae, Dermestes caninus, and Trogidae. The main soil-inhabiting arthropods include Dermaptera and Formicidae
Dry decay
When the last of the soft-tissue has been removed from the body, the final stage of decomposition, skeletonization, occurs. This stage encompasses the deterioration of skeletal remains, and is the longest of the decomposition processes. Skeletonization differs markedly from the previous stages, not only in length, but in the deterioration process itself.
The strength and durability of bone stems from the unique protein-mineral bond present in skeletal formation. Consequently, changes to skeletal remains, known as bone diagenesis, occur at a substantially slower rate than stages of soft-tissue breakdown. As the protein-mineral bond weakens after death, however, the organic protein begins to leach away, leaving behind only the mineral composition. Unlike soft-tissue decomposition, which is influenced mainly by temperature and oxygen levels, the process of bone breakdown is more highly dependent on soil type and pH, along with presence of groundwater. However, temperature can be a contributing factor, as higher temperature leads the protein in bones to break down more rapidly. If buried, remains decay faster in acidic-based soils rather than alkaline. Bones left in areas of high moisture content also decay at a faster rate. The water leaches out skeletal minerals, which corrodes the bone, and leads to bone disintegration.[3]
At the dry decay stage commonly found insects include Sphaeroceridae, Acarina, Nitidulidae, Cleridae, Dermestes caninus, Trogidae, Tyroglyphid mites, and the Tineid larvae. The soil-inhabiting arthropods are Collembola, Dermaptera, Heteroptera, Coleoptera and their larvae, parasitic Hymenoptera, Formicidae, Diptera larvae, Pseudoscorpiones, Aranae, Plectochetos, Acari, Pauropoda, Symphyla, Geophilidae, Protura, and Aphididae
subjecting the body to fire, avoids all of the stuff below, except from the time of death to the burning.
Decomposition or rotting is the process by which tissues of a dead organism break down into simpler forms of matter. The process is essential for new growth and development of living organisms because it recycles the finite matter that occupies physical space in the biome. Bodies of living organisms begin to decompose shortly after death. It is a cascade of processes that go through distinct phases. It may be categorised in two stages by the types of end products. The first stage is characterized by the formation of liquid materials; flesh or plant matter begin to decompose. The second stage is limited to the production of vapors. The science which studies such decomposition generally is called taphonomy from the Greek word taphos, which means grave. Besides the two stages mentioned above, historically the progression of decomposition of the flesh of dead organisms has been viewed also as four phases:
Human decomposition
Stages
Once death occurs, human decomposition takes place in stages. The process of tissue breakdown may take from several days up to years. At all stages of decomposition, insect activity occurs on the body as detailed below.
Fresh
The fresh stage of decomposition occurs during the first few days following the death. There are no physical signs of decomposition during this time. However, homeostasis of the body has ceased, allowing cellular and soft tissue changes to occur because of the process of autolysis, the destruction of cells and organs due to an aseptic chemical process. At this point, the body enters algor mortis, the cooling of the body's temperature to that of its surroundings. When the body’s cells reach the final stage of autolysis, an anaerobic environment is created, that is, an environment wherein oxygen is not present. This allows the body’s normal bacteria to break down the remaining carbohydrates, proteins, and lipids. The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition.[1]
Substances produced during the fresh stage of decomposition attract a variety of insects. Diptera insects begin to lay their eggs on the body during this stage, especially members of the Calliphoridae family of insects.[2] If the body is on the ground or buried in soil there is also considerable insect activity by the insects that live in the soil around the body. The reasoning for this is simple: A dead human body serves as an excellent source of decaying matter to feed on, in a very hospitable environment.
Putrefaction
Odor, color changes, and bloating of the body during decomposition are the results of putrefaction. The lower part of the abdomen turns green due to bacteria activity in the cecum. Bacteria break down hemoglobin into sulfhemoglobin, which causes the green color. A formation of gases enters the abdomen which forces liquids and feces out of the body. The gases also enter the neck and face, causing swelling of the mouth, lips, and tongue. Due to this swelling and misconfiguration of the face, identification of the body can be difficult. Bacteria also enter the venous system causing blood to hemolyze. This leads to the formation of red streaks along the veins. This color soon changes to green, through a process known as marbelization. It can be seen on the shoulders, chest and shoulder area, and thighs. The skin can develop blisters containing serous fluid. The skin also becomes fragile, leading to skin slippage, making it difficult to move a body. Body hair comes off easily. The color change of the discoloration from green to brown marks the transition of the early stage of putrefaction to the advanced decompositional stages.
During the putrefaction stage of decomposition the majority of insect activity again comes from members of the Calliphoridae family, and includes Formicidae, Muscidae, Sphaeroceridae, Silphidae, Lepidoptera, Hymenoptera, Sarcophagidae, Histeridae, Staphylinidae, Phalangida, Piophilidae, Araneae, Sepsidae, and Phoridae. As with the fresh stage of decomposition if the body is on the ground or buried in soil there is also considerable insect activity by the soil-inhabiting arthropods.
Black putrefaction
After the body goes through the bloating stage it begins the black putrefaction stage. At this point the body cavity ruptures, the abdominal gases escape and the body darkens from its greenish color. These activities allow for a greater invasion of scavengers, and insect activity increases greatly. This stage ends as the bones become apparent, which can take anywhere from 10 to 20 days after death depending on region and temperature. This period is also dependent on the degree to which the body is exposed.
During the black putrefaction stage of decomposition, insects that can be found living in the body are Calliphoridae larvae, Staphylinidae, Histeridae, Gamasid mites, Ptomaphila, Trichopterygidae, Piophilid larvae, Parasitic wasps, Staphylinid larvae, Trichopterygid larvae, Histerid larvae, Ptomaphila larvae, Dermestes, Tyroglyphid mites, Tineid larvae, and the Dermestes larvae. Some insects can also be found living in the soil around the body such as Isopoda, Collembola, Dermaptera, Formicidae, Pseudoscorpiones, Araneae, Plectochetos, Acari, Pauropoda, Symphyla, Geophilidae, and Protura. The types of insects will differ based on where the body is, although Diptera larvae can be found feeding on the body in almost all cases.
Butyric fermentation
After the early putrefaction and black putrefaction phases have taken place, the body begins mummification, in which the body begins to dry out. The human carcass is first mummified, and then goes through adipocere formation. Adipocere (grave wax) formation refers to the loss of body odor and the formation of a cheesy appearance on the cadaver. Mummification is considered a post-active stage because there is less definite distinction between changes and they are indicated by reduced skin, cartilage, and bone. Mummification is also indicated when all of the internal organs are lost due to insect activity.
Insects that can be found on the body during mummification include most of the same insects as in putrefaction stage, but also include Acarina, Nitidulidae, Cleridae, Dermestes caninus, and Trogidae. The main soil-inhabiting arthropods include Dermaptera and Formicidae
Dry decay
When the last of the soft-tissue has been removed from the body, the final stage of decomposition, skeletonization, occurs. This stage encompasses the deterioration of skeletal remains, and is the longest of the decomposition processes. Skeletonization differs markedly from the previous stages, not only in length, but in the deterioration process itself.
The strength and durability of bone stems from the unique protein-mineral bond present in skeletal formation. Consequently, changes to skeletal remains, known as bone diagenesis, occur at a substantially slower rate than stages of soft-tissue breakdown. As the protein-mineral bond weakens after death, however, the organic protein begins to leach away, leaving behind only the mineral composition. Unlike soft-tissue decomposition, which is influenced mainly by temperature and oxygen levels, the process of bone breakdown is more highly dependent on soil type and pH, along with presence of groundwater. However, temperature can be a contributing factor, as higher temperature leads the protein in bones to break down more rapidly. If buried, remains decay faster in acidic-based soils rather than alkaline. Bones left in areas of high moisture content also decay at a faster rate. The water leaches out skeletal minerals, which corrodes the bone, and leads to bone disintegration.[3]
At the dry decay stage commonly found insects include Sphaeroceridae, Acarina, Nitidulidae, Cleridae, Dermestes caninus, Trogidae, Tyroglyphid mites, and the Tineid larvae. The soil-inhabiting arthropods are Collembola, Dermaptera, Heteroptera, Coleoptera and their larvae, parasitic Hymenoptera, Formicidae, Diptera larvae, Pseudoscorpiones, Aranae, Plectochetos, Acari, Pauropoda, Symphyla, Geophilidae, Protura, and Aphididae
Drew
Member
You are not accurately representing this text. I assume you are referring to this text from 1 Timothy:jasoncran said:
But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the (G)present life and also for the life to come.
This text in no ways sets the "physical" in relation to the "spiritual". It merely states that being in good physical condition is not as important as pursuing godly character.
Well no kidding.
Besides, this text never suggests that the "life to come" will not be a physical one, in case you are labouring under that common error.
The text does no damage to my assertion that God in any sense divides reality into the "physical" domain and the "spiritual" domain and values the latter more than the former.
That's a Platonic idea, not a Biblical one.
jasoncran
Member
then why all fuss over death? how is the quick destruction any more harmful then the very accurate description of natural decay.
in a few hundred yrs the state will be the same. so how is our decision to cremate our bodies stating that physical stating that the physical is seperate from the spirtual
what will our resurrected bodies be.
will they be the same, i think not. what is the function of the spleen and bone marrow and the liver? and the lymphatic system?
these are for cleaning of the body and protecting the body from illness.
unless you think that the body will need to fight off disease in the new earth and aslo eviromental impurites.
i dont think disease nor impurties will be in the new earth, so our bodies may not be the same.we dont know what type of bodies will you get as in the organs. it will be human but not the same as theres no death.
in a few hundred yrs the state will be the same. so how is our decision to cremate our bodies stating that physical stating that the physical is seperate from the spirtual
what will our resurrected bodies be.
will they be the same, i think not. what is the function of the spleen and bone marrow and the liver? and the lymphatic system?
these are for cleaning of the body and protecting the body from illness.
unless you think that the body will need to fight off disease in the new earth and aslo eviromental impurites.
i dont think disease nor impurties will be in the new earth, so our bodies may not be the same.we dont know what type of bodies will you get as in the organs. it will be human but not the same as theres no death.
Drew
Member
I have already answered this question repeatedly - the issue is not "what happens to us" but rather the implicit message about the secondary value of physicality that is sent when the Christian opts for cremation. You all seem fixated on "how it affects me"- e.g. Lewis and his grisly accounts of decomposition.jasoncran said:
Well, its not all about us. Its also about how our actions radiate outward and tell the world a story about who we believe God to be.
I agree with everything else in your post, though.
jasoncran
Member
then what does it matter to how we dispose of our body. you are concerned because of the pagan origins of cremation?
thats it.
i think that the we fail to engage the world with good biblicaly based world views would be of a more concern? and that we overeat and so on.
i am not for the zoranstraism way of it, i think the deceased should be treated with dignity
i'm being cremated simply becuase of mullah. that cost i gave doesnt include the plot of land.
my wife wants her ashes spread over her families heritage in cherokee, nc.
that i will honor.
i dont have to pay for a plot for myself if choose a va cemetery but that would cause my wife to have to travel to that, and thats far.( 60miles for one and over 100miles for another). and to my knowledge on the vet is covered.
thats it.
i think that the we fail to engage the world with good biblicaly based world views would be of a more concern? and that we overeat and so on.
i am not for the zoranstraism way of it, i think the deceased should be treated with dignity
i'm being cremated simply becuase of mullah. that cost i gave doesnt include the plot of land.
my wife wants her ashes spread over her families heritage in cherokee, nc.
that i will honor.
i dont have to pay for a plot for myself if choose a va cemetery but that would cause my wife to have to travel to that, and thats far.( 60miles for one and over 100miles for another). and to my knowledge on the vet is covered.