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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Sinless Perfection in Christ
- Thread starter for_his_glory
- Start date
Practicing sin, verses unintentional sin, such as an automobile accident where you injure or even kill someone by accident as opposed to being a murderer whereby you are continually murdering people, is just one example.
JLB
People who commit or practice sinning are indeed sinners and are lost.
This does not mean they were never born again.
JLB
Please show me the scripture that says unintentional sin s not a sin.
This scripture does not mention unintentional sin.
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15
- and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
This scripture says when sin is full grown it brings forth death, which is not what you are trying to propmote.
You are trying to teach that if anyone is not perfectly sinless, they were never born again.
JLB
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:9
Those who practice sin, are sinners.
Here is the context of Matthew 7:16 —
It’s about false prophets, not Christians.
You have a habit of just mixing and matching scripture out of context to fit your sinless perfection narrative.
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-20
The fruit of false prophets is false prophecy.
JLB
It doesn't, as it would be unnecessary.
It doesn't, but it does describe intentional sin pretty clearly in James 1:14-15)
If you were not tempted to do something wicked, it is not a sin.
What is a full grown sin?
It is the result of giving in to temptation and enticement to satisfy a lust.
And it brings forth death.
Why would I do that when scripture makes it clear.
It is written...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
Good for you.
We are now on the same page, to the glory of God.
I wish you had expanded your citing two more verses to conclude Jesus' thoughts regarding falsity...
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23)
Your right it doesn’t.
Unintentional sin is sin, otherwise it would require an offering for it, as typified in the Old Testament.
If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the LORD has spoken to Moses— all that the LORD has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day the LORD gave commandment and onward throughout your generations— then it will be, if it is unintentionally committed, without the knowledge of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young bull as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the LORD, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats as a sin offering. Numbers 15:22-24
With that being said, under the New Covenant, we have His laws in our mind and written on our heart.
Can you name all these laws written on our heart, that we are to be careful to observe?
JLB
Yes agreed, there will be some whom Jesus never knew, because they were never saved, never born again.
- Again, you are mixing and matching unrelated content, that is not contextually pertinent to our discussion, in an effort to prop up your man made doctrine of sinless perfection.
Our discussion relates to Christians, born again ChristIans whom the Lord Jesus Christ calls “your brother” and instructs the Church how to deal with a brother in Christ who sins.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15
Same thing that James taught some 40 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
JLB
Sorry, you either misread or just ignored the obvious...It was the workers of iniquity that He never knew.
As all "context" in the writings of Gods word are His effort to keep us free from the devil and sin, mixing context to reveal truths is sometimes necessary.
A truth is a truth in any context.
Nobody in the OT was "born again".
I like the KJV better for plain truth...
"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)
It is apparent that the "sinner" was unconverted.
And I didn't see James refer to the "sinner" as a brother either.
James is writing to the "brethren" about sinners.
He isn't calling sinners his brethren.
Again, Yes, there will be some that Jesus never knew, agreed.
Again, that is not the topic of our discussion or our point of disagreement.
What the scripture teaches is Christians, brothers in Christ, members of the Church who sin against another brother must repent in order to be forgiven, otherwise they could become lost, as a sinner; a person who is separated from Christ.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
- But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3
This is the proper, biblical way for Christians, members of the Church to deal with a Christian brother who sins, after you tell him his fault and he repents, he is to be forgiven and restored.
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:1-2
What you are teaching is if a Christian is not perfectly sinless their whole entire life, they were never born again.
Correct me if this is not what you believe.
JLB
You are labeling brothers, what Jesus Christ calls a brother, a member of the Church, as a sinner.
Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
- But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Desire Of All Nations
Member
Revelation 2 and 3 not only shows that it can happen, those chapters show that it has happened plenty of times. There is a consistent theme throughout those eras that most Christians chose to abandon God for whatever reason and Christ had to warn those people to get back on track.
People don't fall away from God because they think they can never be perfect. People fall away from God because they want to practice a brand of Christianity that doesn't put any demands on them to change, and true Christianity doesn't work like that. The command to strive towards moral perfection is not a falsehood because Paul's epistles reinforce this command more than than the other NT books do: Rom. 10:4, 1 Cor. 1:8, Phi. 2:15, Rom. 12:1-2, Col. 1:22, 1 Thess. 3:13, 1 Thess. 5:23, 1 Tim. 3:2, 10, 1 Tim. 5:7, 1 Tim. 6:14, Tit. 1:6-7. It's rather ironic that this is the case because a lot of people in Orthodox Christianity characterize Paul as teaching a gospel that says God will magically insert His character in them if they just believe Christ exists.
Christ never said anything about practicing biblical Christianity being easy, hence His statements about the road to eternal life being difficult, how few would reach that destination, and how someone had to pick up their cross and deny themselves if they wanted to be known as His disciple. A disciple is someone who follows their teacher's example, and Christ lived a morally flawless life by keeping His Father's commandments. Contrary to what a lot adherents of Orthodox Christianity believe, He didn't just do that so people's sins could be forgiven through faith.
John and I disagree.
It is written..."They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19)
Desire Of All Nations:
People don't fall away from God because they think they can never be perfect. People fall away from God because they want to practice a brand of Christianity that doesn't put any demands on them to change, and true Christianity doesn't work like that. The command to strive towards moral perfection is not a falsehood because Paul's epistles reinforce this command more than than the other NT books do: Rom. 10:4, 1 Cor. 1:8, Phi. 2:15, Rom. 12:1-2, Col. 1:22, 1 Thess. 3:13, 1 Thess. 5:23, 1 Tim. 3:2, 10, 1 Tim. 5:7, 1 Tim. 6:14, Tit. 1:6-7. It's rather ironic that this is the case because a lot of people in Orthodox Christianity characterize Paul as teaching a gospel that says God will magically insert His character in them if they just believe Christ exists.
It only appears as if they "fell away", as the were never "with" Christ in the first place.
Agreed.
Agreed.
He was our example of how to live.
Welcome to the forum !
I agree with your post except this sentence. I was always told many years ago that in order to go to heaven you had to be perfect. I struggled with this for many years walking away from God feeling I would never be perfect, no matter how hard I tried, in order to go to heaven. Now I know in my areas of weakness that God's grace is sufficient as where I am weak He is stronger and helps me to overcome the weak areas. Am I perfect, no, am I striving by the grace of God to be perfect, yes. I will be working out my own salvation with the help of Christ until the day when this corruptible puts on incorruptible and this mortal puts on immortality then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.