Slain In The Spirit v2.0

[VirginShallConceive]

This is the "Christianity & Other Religions" forum. One fascinating reality is that while some things fall somewhere in the middle of their classification, other things seem to float in that gray area between classifications. For instance, I was reading a thread in this forum that involved a Mormon. The Mormons usually consider themselves Christian. Many Christians consider Mormonism a seperate religion. Personally, if I had to choose one, I guess I would consider them non-Christian, with one of the main reasons being the Book of Mormon. But, I have to admit that I had to put some thought into my decision. For instance, I wouldn't even think of classifying Hindus as Christians. That one is easy.

This thinking-about-where-to-classify-Mormonism brings me to the fairly modern thriving of churches whose majority of members practice "miracles" of "speaking in tongues" and being "slain in the Spirit".

I, myself, come from a more traditional Roman Catholic/Lutheran background. Throughout history there have been many Christian creeds, doctrines, and various rituals. As far as us Catholics/Lutherans overwhelmingly see it, the last time speaking in tongues occurred was the one mentioned in the Bible.

So, you have the speaking in tongues in the Bible. Then, you have about 1800 or 1900 years of Christianity without it. All of the sudden, in the early 20th century, there's this explosion of "Christians" practicing speaking in tongues. They will even drop to the ground and start convulsing, like they have epilepsy. Is everyone required to believe that this is actually the Holy Spirit causing these violent outbursts?

You know, when I was a kid, I had a Pentecostal friend in school. He took me to his church. He and his mother warned me not to be alarmed if I saw anyone "speaking in tongues". So, the service starts, and lo and behold, this kid about two rows behind me eventually starts "speaking in tongues". At no point did I ever believe the Holy Spirit had anything to do with this. Like I said, there is a whole history of Christianity that dates back to Antiquity. If they were all speaking in tongues back in the 16th century, Martin Luther wouldn't have had the need to post his Ninety-Five Theses, because with the Holy Spirit running through all of them, all the Christians back then would have been on the same page.

I can see why people classify the Pentecostals and such as Christians, because they preach from the Bible only. But, there is a reality that looms. It is "the elephant in the room". Why do us Christians think Mormonism is wrong? It's because we know that Joseph Smith was lying about the "Golden Tablets". We know the Book of Mormon has zero inspiration from God Almighty. So, if the Holy Spirit has never had anything to do with those claiming to be "slain in the Spirit" or perfoming "healing services" or even "speaking in tongues", then these antics are no different than what Joseph Smith was doing.

Today, it seems that either the Lutherans and Catholics aren't really giving it much thought, or they are being silent about their thoughts on this when interacting with members of "slain in the Spirit" churches. But, make no mistake, if a Lutheran or Catholic says he/she believes that these people are physically moved by the Holy Spirit, then why do they still attend their Lutheran or Catholic church? If they truly believed these people, Lutherans and Catholics would be flocking to these "slain in the Spirit" churches. People would naturally flock to places where real live miracles are constantly happening. Trust me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

hello, I would like to reply.
the difference between other religions and true christianity is Jesus.
We believe he is God and has the power of God.
other religions don't believe he is truely God, thus he has no power.
whatever miracles happen, they happen to the glory of God.
this way we can see God and believe in God.
a good example is peter and the beggar in acts chapter 3.
the story isn't about peter or the beggar that was given his ability to walk again.
the story is about how God healed him and peter was able to share the gospel because of this.

now there are some things we know for sure.

1. 1 Corinthians 12:28. it says that some of us will receive the gift of miracles.
2. peter is an example of how God uses his people with the gift of miracles.
3. all miracles are done for the glory of God.

but something we don't know is how many ways that God will use his people to perform miracles.

now being slain in the spirit is controversial and false teachers use it.
but can we really say that God doesn't use it as a means to heal someone?

this can be discussed forever but the bottom line is this: you don't believe it.
therefore it would be useless to try to convince you otherwise.

but I leave open for God to do all things.
and God can take anything a false teacher uses and make it right

 

[VirginShallConceive]

hello, I would like to reply.
the difference between other religions and true christianity is Jesus.

Hey, allenwynne,

Thanks(again) for being the first person to post in my thread. I would also like to thank you for the pleasant PM exchange.


Yes, that does seem to be the popular view. If Christ is the main devotional object of a belief, then it could be classified as Christianity. I might even have to agree. I'll tell you what. Let's kick it up a notch. Let's take, hypothetically, any denomination of Christianity you want, and add a little spice to it. For simplicity, let's go for the Anglican Church of Canada.

Let's say there was an Anglican Church of Canada congregation. Some of its members got a little carried away with 1 Corinthians 14:34, and broke away from the church and started their own sect. Their doctrine was the exact same as the Anglican Church of Canada, except for one detail. They would go "spy" and attend church services of other denominations who allow women to speak in church. When they found out which woman was speaking, they'd kidnap her at a later time and hold a service at their church where all of the congregation would beat the woman with sticks so badly that she required hospitalization. These people refer to themselves as "The Church of Jesus and the Mouth-Shutters".

With your definition above, or the one I gave just under it, we would have to refer to this hypothetical off-shoot of the Anglican Church of Canada as "Christian". Are you okay with that? To be honest with you, I might have to throw in the towel and call the "slain in the Spirit" practicing churches "Christian". I'm just pointing out why I could see someone hesitating to do so.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints.
those of us who know about it can tell you how deceiving a name is.
back in the 1980's, the city of Beirut in Lebanon was destroyed as a battle waged between the muslims and christians. it goes on today.
as a new christian at the time, i couldn't figure out how they could call themselves christians and still go out and kill people.

so here's how i see it. as christians, we will be known by our fruit. we should be a light to the world. so whatever we do, it should reflect the beauty of Christ and promote the gospel.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

now being slain in the spirit is controversial and false teachers use it.
but can we really say that God doesn't use it as a means to heal someone?

this can be discussed forever but the bottom line is this: you don't believe it.
therefore it would be useless to try to convince you otherwise.

How can I possibly convince you to see from my point of view?

Let me try this:

There have been many people who have claimed to be the Second Coming of Christ. Have you ever found yourself hurrying over to their church to be with Jesus? You are probably just like me in that regard. You and I know, as much as we know anything, that they are either lying or they are insane. Jesus could be anywhere He wants to be. Should we now think, "You know, I bet some of these Jesus claimants are liars, but I have to respect them all because some of them are probably telling the truth"?

It's no different for the Roman Catholics/Lutherans/Eastern Orthodox/etc. when properly addressing both Pentecostals and the Second Comers. Either Jesus is preaching in the flesh as we speak in the Second Coming churches and has totally or somewhat abandoned the Catholics/Lutherans/Orthodox, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church. Either the Holy Spirit is causing powerful seizures in the Pentecostal church down the street and has totally abandoned my church throughout its entire history, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church.

What if, let's say, a Muslim showed up in this forum. This Muslim is losing faith in his religion. He was doing some research and found out that they found some scrolls near the Dead Sea that really put a hurtin' on his once-beloved Quran. You could possibly see some Lutherans and Pentecostals in his thread teaming up to try to convert him, all the while not worrying about which denomination he will end up if he's converted, as long as it's Christian. Now let's say a man enters the thread claiming to be the Second Coming of Christ, and tries to join in on the Christians' side. If the Muslim ends up joining the church of the Jesus imposter, do you think that Lutherans and Pentecostals would relax, thinking this former Muslim is now saved?

Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit . . . same difference.

If the term "same difference" is properly applied anywhere, it is properly applied here. Holy Trinity = 3 in 1. Same, but different.

 

[reba]

Thank you VSC for your politeness....

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Thank you VSC for your politeness....

Thank you, Reba, for noticing.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How can I possibly convince you to see from my point of view?

Let me try this:

There have been many people who have claimed to be the Second Coming of Christ. Have you ever found yourself hurrying over to their church to be with Jesus? You are probably just like me in that regard. You and I know, as much as we know anything, that they are either lying or they are insane. Jesus could be anywhere He wants to be. Should we now think, "You know, I bet some of these Jesus claimants are liars, but I have to respect them all because some of them are probably telling the truth"?

It's no different for the Roman Catholics/Lutherans/Eastern Orthodox/etc. when properly addressing both Pentecostals and the Second Comers. Either Jesus is preaching in the flesh as we speak in the Second Coming churches and has totally or somewhat abandoned the Catholics/Lutherans/Orthodox, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church. Either the Holy Spirit is causing powerful seizures in the Pentecostal church down the street and has totally abandoned my church throughout its entire history, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church.

What if, let's say, a Muslim showed up in this forum. This Muslim is losing faith in his religion. He was doing some research and found out that they found some scrolls near the Dead Sea that really put a hurtin' on his once-beloved Quran. You could possibly see some Lutherans and Pentecostals in his thread teaming up to try to convert him, all the while not worrying about which denomination he will end up if he's converted, as long as it's Christian. Now let's say a man enters the thread claiming to be the Second Coming of Christ, and tries to join in on the Christians' side. If the Muslim ends up joining the church of the Jesus imposter, do you think that Lutherans and Pentecostals would relax, thinking this former Muslim is now saved?

Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit . . . same difference.

If the term "same difference" is properly applied anywhere, it is properly applied here. Holy Trinity = 3 in 1. Same, but different.

now I'm not sure if I see your point at all. I thought I was answering you properly but I guess not. I think you are trying to say that people may not see the difference between the 2. if that's what you are saying, then yes it's true.
that's why there are cults out there that flourish.
but my last statement in my last post should explain how I see the difference.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

let me say this.
if someone came to your church and started drooling from the mouth and rolling in the aisles, and somehow, someway God was glorified through it all, would you at least consider that God may of had a hand in the whole thing?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

let me say this.
if someone came to your church and started drooling from the mouth and rolling in the aisles, and somehow, someway God was glorified through it all, would you at least consider that God may of had a hand in the whole thing?

If they simply started drooling from the mouth and rolling in the aisles, I would dismiss it as a rude prank, an individual in need of some urgent medical care, or some other natural occurrence.

If this happened and at the same time I heard thunder, I would dismiss it as a coincidence because stranger things have happened.

If this happened and at the same time I heard thunder, and the Voice of God spoke "Let there be drool from the mouth and rolling in the aisles!", I wouldn't have to consider. I would know God had a hand in the whole thing.



Allow me to turn the question back at you.



If someone came to your church and started to claim that He was Jesus, and somehow, someway, God was glorified through it all, would you at least consider that God may of had a hand in the whole thing?

 

[reba]

This topic is about my life as it is for others here....As stated the other nite i have seen The Good, Bad, and Ugly in Pentecostalism... I have known God fearing God loving folks. I have seen the fakers and the money grabbers... I have seen supernatural blessings.. I have seen the breakdowns when the promises of man dont happen... The brokenness when one places their faith in something phony instead of the God and His Word...Yet i would not change what i know and or feel...I am not the same Christian today as i was 50 years ago. For that i say Praise the Lord i do need to keep growing..
Looking back over the years i can see the closer folks got to God/ the deeper into the Word the 'fluff' was falling away... God looks at our hearts He sees past the outward shell.

Be careful what you fight against Gods been known to make a donkey talk...

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I grew up in pentecostal Churches. Most people in my family are pentecostal. As a kid I saw some very bizarre behavior in the Churches we went to. Not once did I ever feel the need to speak in tongues. Not once did I ever become "slain in the spirit" when a preacher laid his hand on me. Even as a child I felt that something wasn't right about the behavior I was seeing around me. I often get accused by family members of not being "spiritual" because I question the behavior I see in some pentecostal Churches and have never felt the need to behave that way myself. I also know that charismatics (not all) have a tendency to put more emphasis on experiences than they do scripture. I hardly remember to Word of God being taught in the Churches I grew up in, it was usually just a preacher harping on a few verses for awhile just to get everyone into a frenzy. To me it just seemed more like a get together just to have an "experience", and if everyone got worked up into a frenzy, then that meant the "spirit moved" that night, but if people didn't get worked up in a frenzy, then the service was "dead".

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I grew up in pentecostal Churches. Most people in my family are pentecostal. As a kid I saw some very bizarre behavior in the Churches we went to. Not once did I ever feel the need to speak in tongues. Not once did I ever become "slain in the spirit" when a preacher laid his hand on me. Even as a child I felt that something wasn't right about the behavior I was seeing around me. I often get accused by family members of not being "spiritual" because I question the behavior I see in some pentecostal Churches and have never felt the need to behave that way myself. I also know that charismatics (not all) have a tendency to put more emphasis on experiences than they do scripture. I hardly remember to Word of God being taught in the Churches I grew up in, it was usually just a preacher harping on a few verses for awhile just to get everyone into a frenzy. To me it just seemed more like a get together just to have an "experience", and if everyone got worked up into a frenzy, then that meant the "spirit moved" that night, but if people didn't get worked up in a frenzy, then the service was "dead".

I too have questioned a lot of things I have seen in churches through the years.
I wondered if God was really working through them or not.
I became skeptical.
But I never stopped believing that God could do miracles in me and in others.
As God told the Jews, "you have seen the fire on the mountain, you have seen the miracles I have done among you".
And Jesus did the same.
I'm sure nobody believed anything until they saw it.

However, John 17: 20-26. Jesus prayed for us who would believe in him by hearing his message.
God does give us the ability to believe without seeing.
I guess regardless of what we see or hear about, we have to believe it to be true or else it isn't.

So, scripture can be used, reasoning can be used or whatever, but if we fail to believe then it doesn't matter.

To me, this whole thread is about the unknown.
Being slain in the spirit is an unknown as to whether it truely comes from God or not.
If you see it done legitimately, then you believe.
If you don't see it done legitimately, then you don't believe.
That makes perfect sense to me.

But I leave an open mind for God to do anything in my life.
If he is doing a miracle, I don't want to miss it!

 

[VirginShallConceive]

To me, this whole thread is about the unknown.
Being slain in the spirit is an unknown as to whether it truely comes from God or not.

Well, the way I see it, there are three basic categories when contemplating the legitimacy of one being "slain in the Spirit".

1) The "known" - "It is true! That person was truly slain in the Spirit!"

2) The unknown - "Using all the logic that God gave me, I still don't know."

3) The known - "Using the eye-opening insight of VirginShallConceive's post #5 right here in this thread, I can now understand the truth that was there all along!

 

[Free]

This is the "Christianity & Other Religions" forum.

It is and as such is not the place for this topic.

I can see why people classify the Pentecostals and such as Christians, because they preach from the Bible only. But, there is a reality that looms. It is "the elephant in the room". Why do us Christians think Mormonism is wrong? It's because we know that Joseph Smith was lying about the "Golden Tablets". We know the Book of Mormon has zero inspiration from God Almighty. So, if the Holy Spirit has never had anything to do with those claiming to be "slain in the Spirit" or perfoming "healing services" or even "speaking in tongues", then these antics are no different than what Joseph Smith was doing.

Pentecostals are considered Christian for far more than that they merely "preach from the Bible only." I think you need to do a lot more study on just what it is that defines a Christian and why Mormons cannot be considered Christians.

But, make no mistake, if a Lutheran or Catholic says he/she believes that these people are physically moved by the Holy Spirit, then why do they still attend their Lutheran or Catholic church? If they truly believed these people, Lutherans and Catholics would be flocking to these "slain in the Spirit" churches.

Because it happens in many churches in many denominations, including Catholic and Anglican, and likely even Lutheran. If there is truth to it, why leave one's denomination when they could bring this truth back to their denomination?

People would naturally flock to places where real live miracles are constantly happening. Trust me.

Just like the Jewish leaders naturally flocked to Jesus despite doing the incredibly miraculous right in their midst? No, people wouldn't naturally flock.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

It is and as such is not the place for this topic.

In all due respect, Free, for me it was because of the gray areas that flank the spectrum of an individual's acceptance of a belief as belonging to his/her religion.

Pentecostals are considered Christian for far more than that they merely "preach from the Bible only." I think you need to do a lot more study on just what it is that defines a Christian and why Mormons cannot be considered Christians.

I don't classify Mormons as Christians, as I concluded in my OP, even though I didn't elaborate in too much detail as I continued to move toward my main point.

Because it happens in many churches in many denominations, including Catholic and Anglican, and likely even Lutheran. If there is truth to it, why leave one's denomination when they could bring this truth back to their denomination?

Free, I've read many of your posts on this forum. I can't remember disagreeing with any of them . . . except for this one. I am forty years old. I have only seen "speaking in tongues" on two occasions in real life(I've watched many on YouTube). Both instances occurred in Pentecostal churches. It's not like I go to a different church every Sunday, but in my forty years, I've attended my "regular" churches on Sundays, and I've been to countless weddings, baptisms, and funerals. Besides my two visits to different Pentecostal churches, I have never seen speaking in tongues, people being slain in the Spirit, or faith healings.

Because I have learned that you are intelligent and I respect your advice from reading your posts, I will check further into your claim.

Just like the Jewish leaders naturally flocked to Jesus despite doing the incredibly miraculous right in their midst? No, people wouldn't naturally flock.

To be honest, right now I can't explain why those Jewish leaders didn't naturally flock to Jesus. All I can say is that, in my opinion, those Jewish leaders were insane, evil, or something more further inexplicable. But, I honestly greatly believe that most people would naturally flock toward places where miracles are constantly happening. To be completely honest, I find it hard to believe that you don't agree with me on the majority of people flocking towards real live miracles.

 

[reba]

God looks beyond our goofiness He looks past our shell He looks on the heart.... This is a short letter to the Editor about a Pentecostal pastor....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
​

There is a great shepard in Happy Camp

He watches over his flock day and night with great love and devotion. He will take in any stray lambs he finds or who come to him without any questions or a second thought.
He condems no one, he just loves and cares for his own little lambs and strays.
No, its not our Blessed Savior Christ who is here, but a very Christ like man. He may be smalll in size, but he has a heart that outweighs his body. We who know him are very blessed.
We all thak you Shepherd Jack, for your love and devotion through out this year.

Signed A. Believer...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
​

Some folks need signs.... some need rules ...some do well with traditions... many think they have the key! Our God does not make His kids fit into one box...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It is true that people that think alike and believe alike will flock together.
I don't fit in too well speaking in tongues and talking about it at the southern baptist church nearby.
but i am accepted at the assembly of God church.
one group believes and the other doesn't.
one has many people speaking in tongues and the other virtually none.

i would think that many churches don't see miracles because of an unbelieving spirit.

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

It is true that people that think alike and believe alike will flock together.
I don't fit in too well speaking in tongues and talking about it at the southern baptist church nearby.
but i am accepted at the assembly of God church.
one group believes and the other doesn't.
one has many people speaking in tongues and the other virtually none.

i would think that many churches don't see miracles because of an unbelieving spirit.

Or could it be, that the reason many Churches don't see miracles is because they are not under the power of suggestion? Don't get me wrong, I believe God can and still does perform miracles, but I question a lot of what I see in some Churches.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Or could it be, that the reason many Churches don't see miracles is because they are not under the power of suggestion? Don't get me wrong, I believe God can and still does perform miracles, but I question a lot of what I see in some Churches.

Forget the churches. Do you want to receive the gifts of God?
1 Corinthians 12:31: "eagerly desire the greater gifts".
it could also read, "you are desiring the greater gifts".

then in Romans 8:25: "but if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently".

try it. pray to God for the gifts that you desire. keep praying and in Gods time, see what happens.