Slain In The Spirit v2.0

[Deborah13]

However, with regards to people being "slain in the Spirit" I don't think that is a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit's expression in the Church Body is orderly and as stated earlier, subject to the prophet. In other words, the Spirit shouldn't "take over" a person's body to cause them to do anything, it is two wills working in tandem.

The OT reports that in the temple when the Holy Spirit came in the priests were overcome and could not stand. So we see it in the OT for sure. In the NT, it could be interpreted as falling to pray.

It happened to someone I know who had never seen it or even heard of it (they were 16). The pastor had lightly ahold of their hands. No one caught them, they actually tried to stay standing but fell straight down when their knees got too weak to stand any longer. She said that she remembers feeling a warmth come over her and peace.

The Holy Spirit still has the power He had in the OT, NT, and today. The same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

How can I possibly convince you to see from my point of view?

Let me try this:

There have been many people who have claimed to be the Second Coming of Christ. Have you ever found yourself hurrying over to their church to be with Jesus? You are probably just like me in that regard. You and I know, as much as we know anything, that they are either lying or they are insane. Jesus could be anywhere He wants to be. Should we now think, "You know, I bet some of these Jesus claimants are liars, but I have to respect them all because some of them are probably telling the truth"?

It's no different for the Roman Catholics/Lutherans/Eastern Orthodox/etc. when properly addressing both Pentecostals and the Second Comers. Either Jesus is preaching in the flesh as we speak in the Second Coming churches and has totally or somewhat abandoned the Catholics/Lutherans/Orthodox, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church. Either the Holy Spirit is causing powerful seizures in the Pentecostal church down the street and has totally abandoned my church throughout its entire history, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church.

What if, let's say, a Muslim showed up in this forum. This Muslim is losing faith in his religion. He was doing some research and found out that they found some scrolls near the Dead Sea that really put a hurtin' on his once-beloved Quran. You could possibly see some Lutherans and Pentecostals in his thread teaming up to try to convert him, all the while not worrying about which denomination he will end up if he's converted, as long as it's Christian. Now let's say a man enters the thread claiming to be the Second Coming of Christ, and tries to join in on the Christians' side. If the Muslim ends up joining the church of the Jesus imposter, do you think that Lutherans and Pentecostals would relax, thinking this former Muslim is now saved?

Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit . . . same difference.

If the term "same difference" is properly applied anywhere, it is properly applied here. Holy Trinity = 3 in 1. Same, but different.

The question I believe is not, whether or not the Spiritual Gifts for today. I think that it is unquestionable within the Biblical teaching, though if you are Cessasionalist I will be happy to debate you on the matter.

Yes, I am a Cessationist. Start a thread somewhere, and I will try to be the first to respond. Even if I'm not the first, I promise that I will contribute at least one post to your thread.

The question I believe we need to ask this this: Are those claiming to operate in the Spiritual Gifts actually doing so?

Some people point out gifts like tongues as it is one of the more "odd" gifts that people don't really understand, when tongues seems to have two uses according to Paul, 1) to edify the individual as a prayer language, and 2) interpretive tongues, where the person speaks before the congregation in tongues and gives the interpretation for that prophetic utterance. These are not to be held as 100% from God as the Spirit is subject to the prophets, and the prophets in this case are fallible. We need to test everything against Scripture and hold fast to what is good and toss out the bad.

I've discussed some of this in this thread, but you are probably right. If we are zoning in on "Are the claims true?", we should probably give it its own thread in Apologetics & Theology. You don't have to start it if you don't want to. With your permission, I could respond to this as the OP of a new thread, if you like. Let me know.

However, with regards to people being "slain in the Spirit" I don't think that is a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit's expression in the Church Body is orderly and as stated earlier, subject to the prophet. In other words, the Spirit shouldn't "take over" a person's body to cause them to do anything, it is two wills working in tandem.

I just responded to Free, and he seems to have said something similar, even though I don't want to put words in his mouth. I have to say I agree with you in regards to people being "slain in the Spirit".

Also, have you done research on miraculous occurrences throughout Church History, as performed by many different Christians across denominations?

Another point.. and something you seem to have not factored into your way of thinking. The Spiritual gifts according to Scripture are something that need to be sought after, the gifts are given of course as God wills, but we are admonished to eagerly desire and go after the higher gifts.

This isn't a different "Spirit" or a different "Jesus," the issue is are the gifts for today? If so, how can we seek them and what do they really look like.

I suggest not looking to radical expressions as an example as we can find Catholics that literally worship Mary in some parts of the world, but they don't really represent the majority of Catholics do they?

Claims of miracles throughout church history and the worship of Mary(or any other person who isn't God) are good points that you bring up, Doulos. Perhaps they could be threads on their own, or we could just lump them all together in a thread titled "Miracles: Which Claims Do You Accept?" or something like that.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

I believe it does. Thanks for joining the discussion. Let me know about who's starting the new thread, me or you.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes, I am a Cessationist. Start a thread somewhere, and I will try to be the first to respond. Even if I'm not the first, I promise that I will contribute at least one post to your thread.





I've discussed some of this in this thread, but you are probably right. If we are zoning in on "Are the claims true?", we should probably give it its own thread in Apologetics & Theology. You don't have to start it if you don't want to. With your permission, I could respond to this as the OP of a new thread, if you like. Let me know.

However, with regards to people being "slain in the Spirit" I don't think that is a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit's expression in the Church Body is orderly and as stated earlier, subject to the prophet. In other words, the Spirit shouldn't "take over" a person's body to cause them to do anything, it is two wills working in tandem.

I just responded to Free, and he seems to have said something similar, even though I don't want to put words in his mouth. I have to say I agree with you in regards to people being "slain in the Spirit".

Also, have you done research on miraculous occurrences throughout Church History, as performed by many different Christians across denominations?

Another point.. and something you seem to have not factored into your way of thinking. The Spiritual gifts according to Scripture are something that need to be sought after, the gifts are given of course as God wills, but we are admonished to eagerly desire and go after the higher gifts.

This isn't a different "Spirit" or a different "Jesus," the issue is are the gifts for today? If so, how can we seek them and what do they really look like.

I suggest not looking to radical expressions as an example as we can find Catholics that literally worship Mary in some parts of the world, but they don't really represent the majority of Catholics do they?

Claims of miracles throughout church history and the worship of Mary(or any other person who isn't God) are good points that you bring up, Doulos. Perhaps they could be threads on their own, or we could just lump them all together in a thread titled "Miracles: Which Claims Do You Accept?" or something like that.

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

I believe it does. Thanks for joining the discussion. Let me know about who's starting the new thread, me or you.

Hi Virginshallconceive,

I will open a new thread in the Apologetics & Theology Thread later today, I am at work right now so I can only post in a limited capacity. Certainly not to the degree that is worthy of a subject like this.

Hope to have a fruitful discussion.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The OT reports that in the temple when the Holy Spirit came in the priests were overcome and could not stand. So we see it in the OT for sure. In the NT, it could be interpreted as falling to pray.

It happened to someone I know who had never seen it or even heard of it (they were 16). The pastor had lightly ahold of their hands. No one caught them, they actually tried to stay standing but fell straight down when their knees got too weak to stand any longer. She said that she remembers feeling a warmth come over her and peace.

The Holy Spirit still has the power He had in the OT, NT, and today. The same yesterday, today, and forever.

I think you're misreading that text.

So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God. 2 Chronicles 5:14(KJV)

They could not stand... to MINISTER.. to serve because of the presence of glory of God, this certainly does not mean that they were slain in the Spirit.

 

[proveallthings]

In defense of JWs being Christian, you said:

Well, they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins. A Triune God is a difficult concept for some people to wrap their head around. As far as the Michael/Jesus thing, I surely don't subscribe to that doctrine. But, I don't think the people who do are purposely trying to be evil or misleading. I think that is just how they interpret it, and I am not offended by it. I saw a thread on the "Jesus/Michael Connection" awhile back. I don't even remember the person who was pro-Michael/Jesus even being a JW. The Bible can be very unclear or even seemingly contradictory on some issues that some Christians find extremely important, while others do not feel that they are important. Just look at our Apologetics & Theology section. One day, you find yourself agreeing with one member and not another. The next day, it's the opposite. Some of these people could even claim to be of the same "denomination" as the person who they disagree with.

Do I consider JW's as being Christian if my only two options were placing a check mark in the "Yes" or "No" box? I check "Yes". This is why I believe that there is a wide spectrum of degrees of what one person might consider as Christian or not(I know that you and I disagree on this).

What if you met a preacher who believed every single doctrine that you do down to every last detail except for one: He claims to be the Second Coming of Christ. You, not surprisingly, don't believe him. Do you consider him Christian or non-Christian? Was your decision easy to arrive at, or was it difficult?

VirginShallConceive, I think this is one of the most thoughtful rational posts I've seen in this forum. I'm glad to see that some do not believe it is necessary to turn our brains off when discussing issues of faith. Well done. Keep it up.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

In defense of JWs being Christian, you said:

Well, they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins. A Triune God is a difficult concept for some people to wrap their head around. As far as the Michael/Jesus thing, I surely don't subscribe to that doctrine. But, I don't think the people who do are purposely trying to be evil or misleading. I think that is just how they interpret it, and I am not offended by it. I saw a thread on the "Jesus/Michael Connection" awhile back. I don't even remember the person who was pro-Michael/Jesus even being a JW. The Bible can be very unclear or even seemingly contradictory on some issues that some Christians find extremely important, while others do not feel that they are important. Just look at our Apologetics & Theology section. One day, you find yourself agreeing with one member and not another. The next day, it's the opposite. Some of these people could even claim to be of the same "denomination" as the person who they disagree with.

Do I consider JW's as being Christian if my only two options were placing a check mark in the "Yes" or "No" box? I check "Yes". This is why I believe that there is a wide spectrum of degrees of what one person might consider as Christian or not(I know that you and I disagree on this).

What if you met a preacher who believed every single doctrine that you do down to every last detail except for one: He claims to be the Second Coming of Christ. You, not surprisingly, don't believe him. Do you consider him Christian or non-Christian? Was your decision easy to arrive at, or was it difficult?

VirginShallConceive, I think this is one of the most thoughtful rational posts I've seen in this forum. I'm glad to see that some do not believe it is necessary to turn our brains off when discussing issues of faith. Well done. Keep it up.

Thank you so much.

 

[Deborah13]

I think you're misreading that text.

I stand corrected, thank you for pointing that out!!!