SOF Sin Nature

[Truthfrees]

When it comes to obeying Christ, then we must do it.


Which means, did Christ or His Apostles command the Church to:

Keep the Sabbath
Obstain from eating shrimp or pork
Observe feast days


JLB

this is what Christ said - Matthew 5:19 -

did anyone forbid us to do those things?

is there anything wrong with doing those things?

why would anyone get angry with someone who does those things?

is there anything wrong with sharing how doing those things has practical/medical/health/spiritual advantages?

i'm not understanding the negative responses some people make to my happy posts

what is so upsetting about the happy things i am saying?

i'm not upset - just trying to understand

 

[Truthfrees]

God doesn’t want NT Christians to become circumcised (a major part of the OT Law). Plain and simple.

does not want? - or does not demand?

are you saying that gentiles should not be circumcised because God does not want them to do this?

do you know there are medical and health advantages to circumcision?

so God does not want gentiles to have these health advantages?

God tells us all to choose - jews christians gentiles

God forces no one to do anything

He says good things and then everyone chooses for himself which things he feels God is speaking to him to do or not to do

you can choose to do as much or as little as you wish

salvation is secure as a separate issue - it is a undeserved gift from God to believers

 

[stovebolts]

God doesn’t want NT Christians to become circumcised (a major part of the OT Law). Plain and simple.

I don't think that's what Paul meant when he wrote that.

 

[chessman]

I don't think that's what Paul meant when he wrote that.

Why? That’s what he said: To anyone called while uncircumcised this person must not become circumcised. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

Was anyone called in uncircumcision? He must not become circumcised.

 

[chessman]

does not want? - or does not demand?

Does not want, which is what I said.

are you saying that gentiles should not be circumcised because God does not want them to do this?

I’m saying what Paul said which is that someone called while being uncircumcised (as the Gentiles were) must NOT become circumcised (which is a major part of the Torah Law). Is there any way to misinterpret that??? I don’t see how.

 

[stovebolts]

Why? That’s what he said: To anyone called while uncircumcised this person must not become circumcised. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

I don't think it's that straight forward....

 

[chessman]

are you saying that gentiles should not be circumcised because God does not want them to do this?

I’m saying God does not want an uncircumcised person who is then called to Christ to become circumcised. Nor does He want a circumcised person who is then called to Christ to become uncircumcised. Because that’s what the Holy Spirit said to do through Paul’s epistles.

do you know there are medical and health advantages to circumcision?

I know there are if done to an infant. Did you know there are health disadvantages to circumcise an adult male?

He says good things and then everyone chooses for himself which things he feels God is speaking to him to do or not to do

He told Paul to tell uncircumcised Christians not to become circumcised. Pretty simple instructions, really. Profound impact though.

salvation is secure as a separate issue - it is a undeserved gift from God to believers

I agree. I understood you before on this and am not arguing following Torah Law as a Gentile Christian is a salvation issue (one way or another).

 

[Truthfrees]

I know there are if done to an infant. Did you know there are health disadvantages to circumcise an adult male?

no - i didn't - i will try to find out about that - thanks for letting me know

 

[Truthfrees]

I’m saying God does not want an uncircumcised person who is then called to Christ to become circumcised. Nor does He want a circumcised person who is then called to Christ to become uncircumcised. Because that’s what the Holy Spirit said to do through Paul’s epistles.

I know there are if done to an infant. Did you know there are health disadvantages to circumcise an adult male?

He told Paul to tell uncircumcised Christians not to become circumcised. Pretty simple instructions, really. Profound impact though.

I agree. I understood you before on this and am not arguing following Torah Law as a Gentile Christian is a salvation issue (one way or another).

from reading the NT it seems to me that there were a few jews who were telling gentiles they were NOT saved because they were NOT circumcised - this is what paul was vehemently talking against all the time in practically every letter he wrote - and paul is right

imo his statements about "remain as you are" are about this issue - nothing more - nothing less

 

[chessman]

i will try to find out about that

To get you started, besides the fact that Paul explicitly (and I fail to see any evidence whatsoever that it was/is not as straightforward as it was instructioned to the Corinthians) told the called uncircumcised to not become circumcised, here’s what the medical community now says:

“The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) found that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universalnewborn circumcision. The procedure may be recommended in older boys and men to treat phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) or to treat an infection of the penis.”​

https://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision​

​

Circumcising an older boy or man is recommended only as a treatment for existing infection. Otherwise, it promotes infection risks and other problems (anesthesia risks, incorrect procedure and thus ‘issue’ later, lack of proper regrowth (which is why it’s not so much of a problem for infants) and PAIN! Newborns have the inherent ability and the environmental conditions to ward off infection and VERY quickly heal that older boys and adult men simply don’t have.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/circumcision/about/pac-20393550

But anyway, I fail to see (which doesn’t mean it’s not true of course) how Paul’s instructions to the new Corinthian converts is not plain and simple. And it prohibits circumcising newly called Gentiles. Which means it prohibits following Torah Law completely anyway.

 

[chessman]

his statements about remain as you are are about this issue - nothing more - nothing less

Okay but it still says not to become circumcised, which is a major part of the Torah Law.

BTW, his instruction comes in the middle of other instructions concerning lawsuits, prostitution, widows, divorce and diet. Are these too instructions meant only to address the issue the Judaizers brought???

So it was okay to bring a civil lawsuit against another brother in Christ as long as it wasn’t done for salvation reasons?

 

[JLB]

never have said it is a sin

always have said it is unwise

if people try to connect food to salvation or sin to salvation that also is unwise

I never said you did.


However there are those in the Messiaic movement who do.




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

But anyway, I fail to see (which doesn’t mean it’s not true of course) how Paul’s instructions to the new Corinthian converts is not plain and simple. And it prohibits circumcising newly called Gentiles. Which means it prohibits following Torah Law completely anyway.

so the real issue is doing anything in torah? - why? - what is wrong with me keeping torah? - i love it and it blesses me

 

[Truthfrees]

Okay but it still says not to become circumcised, which is a major part of the Torah Law.

BTW, his instruction comes in the middle of other instructions concerning lawsuits, prostitution, widows, divorce and diet. Are these too instructions meant only to address the issue the Judaizers brought???

So it was okay to bring a civil lawsuit against another brother in Christ as long as it wasn’t done for salvation reasons?

i take all the good wisdom of God's OT and NT instructions to advance and improve my life - i don't use it to judge others - i may use it to help others - but i am not trying to make theology for others out of anything God says -

is that what is going on here - does it sound like i am trying to make theology?

or does my happy understanding of God's OT and NT wisdom conflict with your theology?

why is my happy talk a disturbing topic?

 

[chessman]

so the real issue is doing anything in torah?

Nope, never said that nor do I be that. I simply answered your question from post #127.

 

[Truthfrees]

I never said you did.

However there are those in the Messiaic movement who do.

JLB

sorry to hear that - i bet they are unhappy people

 

[chessman]

is that what is going on here - does it sound like i am trying to make theology?

No, it doesn’t sound like you are trying to make Theology to me. Heck, there’s almost nothing you’ve said in this thread that I disagree with. I simply pointed out that Paul told uncircumcised Christian converts not to get circumcised, which is a major aspect of the Torah Law, as an answer to your question in post #127.

or does my happy understanding of God's OT and NT wisdom conflict with your theology?

Not at all.

why is my happy talk a disturbing topic?

It’s not. I started to reply to you yesterday how much I enjoyed the conversation we had. Still feel that way. I’ll drop it and just ‘agree to agree’ because I haven’t necessarily disagreed with anything you’ve stated.

 

[Truthfrees]

No, it doesn’t sound like you are trying to make Theology to me. Heck, there’s almost nothing you’ve said in this thread that I disagree with. I simply pointed out that Paul told uncircumcised Christian converts not to get circumcised, which is a major aspect of the Torah Law, as an answer to your question in post #127.


Not at all.

It’s not. I started to reply to you yesterday how much I enjoyed the conversation we had. Still feel that way. I’ll drop it and just ‘agree to agree’ because I haven’t necessarily disagreed with anything you’ve stated.

edit - ok - i think i have been misunderstanding you

will re-read and take a different look seeing as you say we agree

that is probably why i couldn't understand your point of disagreement

 

[chessman]

so you are saying God commanded that gentiles should not be circumcised? - is that what you are saying?

Was anyone called after being circumcised? He must not undo his circumcision. Was anyone called in uncircumcision? He must not become circumcised.​

1 Corinthians 7:18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 7:18&version=LEB

Not exactly, but close. God (through Paul’s letter to the Corinthians) told (ordered is the word Paul literally used) uncircumcised Christian converts not to “become” circumcised. This says nothing (one way or the other) about an infant being circumcised as a Jew or as a Gentile). If parents (Jews or Gentiles) wanted to circumcise their male newborns, that’s not violating God’s NT instruction here (one way or the other) is my point.


I felt like I need to repost it again to make it clear. But yes I got your point about this particular instruction probably being in the letter to address the Juadizers (false teachers). Even if it was in the letter merely to address the Judaizers teaching (which I’m not sure I totally agree with), that doesn’t mean it’s not an order to be followed.

i take all the good wisdom of God's OT and NT instructions to advance and improve my life

Cool.

But let’s say you were an uncircumcised adult Gentile living in Corinth and were called to Christ and became a Christian under Paul’s orders. Paul’s instruction is to NOT become circumcised, right? (I’m gonna assume a yes answer as I don’t see any way around it, Judaizers or not)

This means Paul’s direct and unequivocal order (reposted above) to the uncircumcised Christian converts (Jew or Gentile) was to NOT live under Torah Law and become circumcised as the Torah required.

 

[Truthfrees]

Was anyone called after being circumcised? He must not undo his circumcision. Was anyone called in uncircumcision? He must not become circumcised.​

1 Corinthians 7:18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 7:18&version=LEB

Not exactly, but close. God (through Paul’s letter to the Corinthians) told (ordered is the word Paul literally used) uncircumcised Christian converts not to “become” circumcised. This says nothing (one way or the other) about an infant being circumcised as a Jew or as a Gentile). If parents (Jews or Gentiles) wanted to circumcise their male newborns, that’s not violating God’s NT instruction here (one way or the other) is my point.


I felt like I need to repost it again to make it clear. But yes I got your point about this particular instruction probably being in the letter to address the Juadizers (false teachers). Even if it was in the letter merely to address the Judaizers teaching (which I’m not sure I totally agree with), that doesn’t mean it’s not an order to be followed.


Cool.

But let’s say you were an uncircumcised adult Gentile living in Corinth and were called to Christ and became a Christian under Paul’s orders. Paul’s instruction is to NOT become circumcised, right? (I’m gonna assume a yes answer as I don’t see any way around it, Judaizers or not)

This means Paul’s direct and unequivocal order (reposted above) to the uncircumcised Christian converts (Jew or Gentile) was to NOT live under Torah Law and become circumcised as the Torah required.

ONLY God has the authority to change God's commands