son of man - or - Son of Man?

[Josef]

Hey All,
You hear it here and other places people saying that Jesus never claimed to be God. It is a fundamental doctrine in some cults. But is it true?

The phrase "son of man" is found in the Old Testament. It can be used for a single person; for example (Psalms 8:4), or all humanity. (Ezekiel 2:1) But the two I want to discuss, stand out as meaning something different. Numbers 23:19, and Daniel 7:13-14

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The "son of man" used here is singular, and given the same attribute as God. So is this speaking of all mankind? It doesn't seem so.

and

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This passage is clearly a messianic prophecy. The priests and scribes of Jesus' time knew it as such. Here are just a few of the 300+ in the Old Testament.
Genesis 49:10-"The scepter will not depart from Judah . . . "
Numbers 24:17-19-Reference to Genesis 49:10.
Psalm 2:7-9:-" . . . Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
Psalm 60:7-" . . . Judah my scepter.”

The Messiah is begotten of God, and He is the everlasting king.
Literally, the God king.
This out of the writings of Moses, David, and Daniel.

Time passes:
Then Jesus comes out with this.

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Jesus uses the phrase to describe Himself.
The crowd knew what it meant and questioned Him.

John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Jesus was claiming to be Messiah.
The priests and scribes knew exactly what this meant. (Danil 7:13-14)
Jesus was claiming to be God.

And that started the series of events resulting in Jesus' crucifixion.

And now we individually have to decide:
Is Jesus the son of god, or is He the Son of God?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Hey All,
You hear it here and other places people saying that Jesus never claimed to be God. It is a fundamental doctrine in some cults. But is it true?

The phrase "son of man" is found in the Old Testament. It can be used for a single person; for example (Psalms 8:4), or all humanity. (Ezekiel 2:1) But the two I want to discuss, stand out as meaning something different. Numbers 23:19, and Daniel 7:13-14

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The "son of man" used here is singular, and given the same attribute as God. So is this speaking of all mankind? It doesn't seem so.

and

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This passage is clearly a messianic prophecy. The priests and scribes of Jesus' time knew it as such. Here are just a few of the 300+ in the Old Testament.
Genesis 49:10-"The scepter will not depart from Judah . . . "
Numbers 24:17-19-Reference to Genesis 49:10.
Psalm 2:7-9:-" . . . Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
Psalm 60:7-" . . . Judah my scepter.”

The Messiah is begotten of God, and He is the everlasting king.
Literally, the God king.
This out of the writings of Moses, David, and Daniel.

Time passes:
Then Jesus comes out with this.

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Jesus uses the phrase to describe Himself.
The crowd knew what it meant and questioned Him.

John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Jesus was claiming to be Messiah.
The priests and scribes knew exactly what this meant. (Danil 7:13-14)
Jesus was claiming to be God.

And that started the series of events resulting in Jesus' crucifixion.

And now we individually have to decide:
Is Jesus the son of god, or is He the Son of God?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Hello Josef, How are you all? Great post, Hoping I don't get carried away off this issue, but, Yes, we have read some scriptures like John 24 where Jesus says that God is a spirit, and Paul said, that God was in Christ, this meant to me, that the spirit of God was in the Son of God, but then I thought of other scriptures like what Jesus said to Philip in John 14:9....."He That Hath Seen Me Hath Seen The Father"

And again, in John 10:22-42

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

And from: Luke 1:26-33

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

So, we are not over looking at what Jesus has said about GOD is a spirit, and at what these scriptures are saying, and what Jesus said to Peter: Matthew 16:13-20


13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

We also can see that Christ did the things He did because we believe was proven to be Both GOD and Man., But What do you say to this?

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hello Josef, How are you all? Great post, Hoping I don't get carried away off this issue, but, Yes, we have read some scriptures like John 4: 24 where Jesus says that God is a spirit, and Paul said, that God was in Christ, this meant to me, that the spirit of God was in the Son of God, but then I thought of other scriptures like what Jesus said to Philip in John 14:9....."He That Hath Seen Me Hath Seen The Father"

A spirit can't die for the sins of mankind in a specific way "according to the Scripture" (1 Cor. 15:3), only a man can.

 

[Josef]

Hello Josef, How are you all? Great post, Hoping I don't get carried away off this issue, but, Yes, we have read some scriptures like John 24 where Jesus says that God is a spirit, and Paul said, that God was in Christ, this meant to me, that the spirit of God was in the Son of God, but then I thought of other scriptures like what Jesus said to Philip in John 14:9....."He That Hath Seen Me Hath Seen The Father"

And again, in John 10:22-42

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

And from: Luke 1:26-33

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

So, we are not over looking at what Jesus has said about GOD is a spirit, and at what these scriptures are saying, and what Jesus said to Peter: Matthew 16:13-20


13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

We also can see that Christ did the things He did because we believe was proven to be Both GOD and Man., But What do you say to this?

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Greetings WalterandDebbie. May God always be in your presence.

I agree that Jesus is both God and man, Elohim in Jewish which means God with us.
John introduces us to Jesus as God (The Word) in verse 1.
Jesus was in the beginning with God. (vs 2)

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This is the tie in for calling Jesus the Word.
Jesus was the voice of creation.
We know this by verse 3.
We know that only God can create something from nothing.
These verses (John 1:1-3) when read in context, declare that Jesus is the maker of all things.
Only God can create from nothing.

Vs. 4 tells us Jesus is life, and the the light of the world.

In John 1:7-8, John tells us that John the Baptist bore witness of the Light, which the apostle John called "that Light."
This again is calling Jesus the creator God.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jesus is the voice in Genesis 1:3.
God, through Jesus, spoke the light that was made.
He is that "Light."
This is not sunlight.
Light is meant as understanding.
Jesus is God, begotten of God, to be man's way of understanding God.
Anything begotten of God is God.
God is infinite.
Infinity cannot be divided as any piece of infinite would be equally infinite.

John is also calling Jesus, in addition to being equal to God, human.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


God and man, The God Man if you will.
This is where the argument usually starts.

How can Jesus be both God and man?
Jesus was made, not created, made flesh.
Jesus is a transformation of form ( the spirit made flesh) without division of the whole (still completely God)

When did John "behold" His glory? What was John's proof.
That's a fair question.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

I believe that John is referring to this incident in the parentheses.
Parentheses generally conotes the interruption as an afterthought
"(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)"
I believe the transfiguration, (which happened later in their relationship,) was John's proof.

That is good enough for me.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz