Suicide without a gun...

[John]

Defending one's life and well-being is the most basic of human rights and instincts. Even a rat will fight back if threatened.

Either Jesus is ignorant on this fact or we are misinterpreting what the Bible says.

 

[Drew]

A bridge is one thing; a gun is quite something else.

Only in your mind, Free, and only because of YOUR views.
To the suicidal person they are the exactly the same....a method to take ones life.

This line of reasoning has been clearly shown to not be generally true - see a few posts back. There can indeed be scenarios where "the tool makes the difference".

 

[follower of Christ]

Yeah, I have gone paintballing and target shooting (airsoft) with my sons and it is fun. The real guns are a bit of a jump for me at this point, but as a sport of skill I'm cool with it. I also like homemade blowguns (a hobby I developed while at art school).

I have been dying to try the blowgun thing.
Ive only ever seen one in a magazine, so Im afraid to buy one unseen.
Im pretty handy with tools and stuff, how do you make one at home ? Lots of work ?

 

[follower of Christ]

This line of reasoning has been clearly shown to not be generally true - see a few posts back. There can indeed be scenarios where "the tool makes the difference".

Little hint, DREW...just because you take 2 seconds to spout out some meaningless irrelevance it hardly means you have disproven anything.

 

[follower of Christ]

.

Seeking out lethal means
Looking for ways to commit suicide. Seeking access to guns, pills, knives, or other objects that could be used in a suicide attempt.

http://helpguide.org/mental/suicide_prevention.htm

.

 

[Drew]

Defending one's life and well-being is the most basic of human rights and instincts. Even a rat will fight back if threatened.

Either Jesus is ignorant on this fact or we are misinterpreting what the Bible says.

As to "instinct", I suggest that in a fallen world, "instinct" is not a reliable guide to behaviour. I suggest that there is a "natural" instinct to seek "empowerment". Well, what does Jesus have to say about this kind of thing?:

You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

John, you have previously stated "my rights are paramount". Do you stick to that?

 

[Free]

A bridge is one thing; a gun is quite something else.

Only in your mind, Free, and only because of YOUR views.
To the suicidal person they are the exactly the same....a method to take ones life.

A bridge's primary purpose is to allow transportation between two points otherwise impossible or difficult. A gun's primary purpose is to inflict damage on a living being.

Of course someone who really wants to commit suicide will find a means to do it but what is wrong with taking away one of those means, one which also happens to be very useful in all sorts of criminal activity? What justification is there for making available one more means?

 

[follower of Christ]

Gun suicides tend to be successful. But this does not mean that if you took away the guns, people wouldn't commit suicide. There are many other near-surefire ways of killing yourself, like jumping off a high bridge, gassing yourself with carbon monoxide, driving your car at high speed into a piling, hanging yourself, etc.

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/arc ... istics.php

 

[LostSoul]

In my own opinion that is the most common made error in judgement in today's society....that the tool is the issue.

Despite the common sense appeal of what you say, common sense is not a reliable guide in all cases.

What if the following things were all true:

1. The only ways to kill yourself were by shooting yourself or climbing to the top of a cliff and jumping;
2. 50 % of suicidal thoughts were "transitory" - the desire to commit suicide only lasts, say, 5 minutes.
3. It takes one minute to grab a gun and shoot yourself, while it takes 10 minutes to climb the cliff.

Do I need to complete the argument? Well, in such an admittedly hypothetical scenario, getting rid of the gun as a "tool" would substantially reduce the suicide rate. This is because, in the absence of a gun, many people would change their minds during their march up the hill to the cliff.

So you see, the tool can indeed be a big part of the problem.

Many of the arguments my opponent is putting forth consist in appeals to common sense that, when analzed and thought through, do not really stand up.

Drew,

I am not going to argue with you back and forth on this as I know you are set on your views as I am my own. Not to say in the least I do not take the time to read your responses to me. They are thoughts ones that should be and are well expressed, even if I cannot be in agreement with them.

The point here is...if someone wants to die badly enough, they will find a means to do so...gun or not. The same too can be said of an armed robber or otherwise. If their ambition is strong enough to do something, a gun will not be required or necessary. Stabbings, beatings, rapings all occur just the same. With or without guns killing would continue....with or without guns people would continue to do wrong in God's eyes.

There is no changing that. With that being said I will humbly bow out.....as I said I am not going to say someone is wrong....or really stand for being called wrong because my views may not be the same as someone else. This topic is a bit of a delicate one for me....death and me do not go well together....will leave it at that.....

Chiao....nice talking with you all.

 

[GojuBrian]

Yeah, I have gone paintballing and target shooting (airsoft) with my sons and it is fun. The real guns are a bit of a jump for me at this point, but as a sport of skill I'm cool with it. I also like homemade blowguns (a hobby I developed while at art school).

They have very realistic airsoft guns that are good trainers. If you decide to get a real gun be sure to get some real training along with it! Remember the rules of safety first and foremost.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.


3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

When using or storing a gun, always follow these NRA rules:

Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

Know how to use the gun safely.
Before handling a gun, learn how it operates. Know its basic parts, how to safely open and close the action and remove any ammunition from the gun or magazine. Remember, a gun's mechanical safety device is never foolproof. Nothing can ever replace safe gun handling.

Be sure the gun is safe to operate.
Just like other tools, guns need regular maintenance to remain operable. Regular cleaning and proper storage are a part of the gun's general upkeep. If there is any question concerning a gun's ability to function, a knowledgeable gunsmith should look at it.

Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.
Only BBs, pellets, cartridges or shells designed for a particular gun can be fired safely in that gun. Most guns have the ammunition type stamped on the barrel. Ammunition can be identified by information printed on the box and sometimes stamped on the cartridge. Do not shoot the gun unless you know you have the proper ammunition.

Wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.
Guns are loud and the noise can cause hearing damage. They can also emit debris and hot gas that could cause eye injury. For these reasons, shooting glasses and hearing protectors should be worn by shooters and spectators.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.
Many factors must be considered when deciding where and how to store guns. A person's particular situation will be a major part of the consideration. Dozens of gun storage devices, as well as locking devices that attach directly to the gun, are available. However, mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute for safe gun handling and the observance of all gun safety rules.

Be aware that certain types of guns and many shooting activities require additional safety precautions.

Cleaning
Regular cleaning is important in order for your gun to operate correctly and safely. Taking proper care of it will also maintain its value and extend its life. Your gun should be cleaned every time that it is used.
A gun brought out of prolonged storage should also be cleaned before shooting. Accumulated moisture and dirt, or solidified grease and oil, can prevent the gun from operating properly.

Before cleaning your gun, make absolutely sure that it is unloaded. The gun's action should be open during the cleaning process. Also, be sure that no ammunition is present in the cleaning area.

 

[GojuBrian]

A bridge is one thing; a gun is quite something else.

Only in your mind, Free, and only because of YOUR views.
To the suicidal person they are the exactly the same....a method to take ones life.

A bridge's primary purpose is to allow transportation between two points otherwise impossible or difficult. A gun's primary purpose is to inflict damage on a living being.

Of course someone who really wants to commit suicide will find a means to do it but what is wrong with taking away one of those means, one which also happens to be very useful in all sorts of criminal activity? What justification is there for making available one more means?

In taking away the equalizing tool you create victims.

 

[Drew]

This line of reasoning has been clearly shown to not be generally true - see a few posts back. There can indeed be scenarios where "the tool makes the difference".

Little hint, DREW...just because you take 2 seconds to spout out some meaningless irrelevance it hardly means you have disproven anything.

Well, if I am mistaken, please show all the readers precisely where my argument has failed. Merely declaring it to be "meaningless irrelevance" will not be very convincing to the critical reader.

So please tell us, in the hypothetical scenario I described, how is that taking away the gun would not reduce the rate of suicide.

 

[handy]

This has been repeatedly addressed. As Jesus Himself explcitly states, the arming was done very specifically to make Himself appear to be one of a band of revolutionaries. Why people do not accept what Jesus says, and super-impose their own interpretation, shows that they should re-think their exegetical method.

Even though I disagree with you on a number of points, I do appreciate your answering my question.

Drew, could you provide the chapter/verse where Jesus explicitly states this? Not that I don't trust you, but you know me, gotta check things out for myself.

 

[follower of Christ]

A bridge's primary purpose is to allow transportation between two points otherwise impossible or difficult. A gun's primary purpose is to inflict damage on a living being.

Uh..yeah...free...I KNOW what a bridge is for

The the SUICIDAL individual, however, it is an instrument of death....just like ten billion other objects and devices on this planet are.

In order to STOP suicide we're going to need for everyone to put on their straightjackets, Im afraid. ;)

What justification is there for making available one more means?

Youre right....so WHY are you HERE instead of bothering the makers of Tylenol or one of thousands of other COMMON products that could take a life ?

 

[John]

John, you have previously stated "my rights are paramount". Do you stick to that?

 

[follower of Christ]

Drew, could you provide the chapter/verse where Jesus explicitly states this? Not that I don't trust you, but you know me, gotta check things out for myself.

Whats funny about Drew views is it is entirely contradictory.

He CLAIMS that Jesus is supposedly against using the sword for violence, but by his own views Jesus KNOWINGLY set Peter up WITH a sword to COMMIT VIOLENCE !




.

 

[GojuBrian]

Defending one's life and well-being is the most basic of human rights and instincts. Even a rat will fight back if threatened.

Either Jesus is ignorant on this fact or we are misinterpreting what the Bible says.

As to "instinct", I suggest that in a fallen world, "instinct" is not a reliable guide to behaviour. I suggest that there is a "natural" instinct to seek "empowerment". Well, what does Jesus have to say about this kind of thing?:

You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

John, you have previously stated "my rights are paramount". Do you stick to that?

Do you really believe you can't be a gunowner and a servant? Military, police agencies, etc.......

 

[Drew]

In taking away the equalizing tool you create victims.

This needs to be sub-stantiated. It is clearly not self-evidently true. It is easy to construct a hypothetical that shows that, in some circumstances, society as a whole is best served by taking away the "equalizing tool".

Remember - the equalzing tool does not magically appear when one is attacked in one's home and then magically disappear when one is enraged at a cheating spouse.

 

[GojuBrian]

This line of reasoning has been clearly shown to not be generally true - see a few posts back. There can indeed be scenarios where "the tool makes the difference".

Little hint, DREW...just because you take 2 seconds to spout out some meaningless irrelevance it hardly means you have disproven anything.

Well, if I am mistaken, please show all the readers precisely where my argument has failed. Merely declaring it to be "meaningless irrelevance" will not be very convincing to the critical reader.

So please tell us, in the hypothetical scenario I described, how is that taking away the gun would not reduce the rate of suicide.

You simply have to look at the worlds countries who are leading in suicide rates............ countries like China, Japan, and many others which are not gun friendly.

 

[follower of Christ]

Do you really believe you can't be a gunowner and a servant? Military, police agencies, etc.......

Whats amazing is how often Drew and others rip out so much of scripture entirely out of context to push their agenda/