***THE ATHEIST CHALLENGE***(cosmology)

[Steven84]

So I recently came across a video challenging Atheists and thinkers of the like to give some POSITIVE arguments as to whether:
They believe the universe is eternal?,
Or not?
Why do they believe the universe is eternal?,
Or not?,
If the universe is not eternal then what caused it to exist?,
was it... itself?

They have already begun posting and already I have seen philosophical fallacies and scientific absurdities/contradictions. This really exposes how inconsistent and incoherent their position really is when push comes to shove. So often they play the part of the skeptical "nay sayers" but now they are put on the spot to show THEIR cards and give some positive reasons for THEIR convictions.

Check it all out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3PWGhthC_4

"Let the TRUTH BATTLE begin"

 

[jasoncran]

the comments on that were a little comical.

 

[costcounter]

We which do believe ought not to enter into a philosophical conversation with unbelievers, which is what Eve did with the serpent. For righteousness has no fellowship with unrighteousness, neither does light have any communion with darkness. We are to only inform them of the Truth according to God, but not enter into a debate; that is what the secular do, but not we which do believe.

 

[ChevyRodeo]

We which do believe ought not to enter into a philosophical conversation with unbelievers, which is what Eve did with the serpent. For righteousness has no fellowship with unrighteousness, neither does light have any communion with darkness. We are to only inform them of the Truth according to God, but not enter into a debate; that is what the secular do, but not we which do believe.

did jesus debate?

 

[jasoncran]

paul did. Read the book of acts. and he reasoned amongst them in the synagouge showing them in the holy scriptures that jesus was the christ indeed.

 

[Sound Silence]

We which do believe ought not to enter into a philosophical conversation with unbelievers, which is what Eve did with the serpent. For righteousness has no fellowship with unrighteousness, neither does light have any communion with darkness. We are to only inform them of the Truth according to God, but not enter into a debate; that is what the secular do, but not we which do believe.

Which is pretty convenient for us, isn't it?

 

[RND]

So I recently came across a video challenging Atheists and thinkers of the like to give some POSITIVE arguments as to whether:
They believe the universe is eternal?,
Or not?
Why do they believe the universe is eternal?,
Or not?,
If the universe is not eternal then what caused it to exist?,
was it... itself?

They have already begun posting and already I have seen philosophical fallacies and scientific absurdities/contradictions. This really exposes how inconsistent and incoherent their position really is when push comes to shove. So often they play the part of the skeptical "nay sayers" but now they are put on the spot to show THEIR cards and give some positive reasons for THEIR convictions.

Check it all out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3PWGhthC_4

"Let the TRUTH BATTLE begin"

You know, the one question I want to know is, "Where'd the protons come from?"

In the proton accelerators that have cost untold billions the whole idea is to ram protons together so scientist's can begin to understand and explain how the "big bang' came into being. Great! Hope they get their answer.

Now, where'd the protons come from?

 

[wavy]

There are many models for the big bang, but I'll just assume the classical formulation. My guess? The universe is uncaused (not eternal) and is inconsistent with the existence of God. This much I have gathered from reading a little on the writings of Quentin Smith.

Btw, youtube is not the best of stages to go by making generalizations about atheists...

Finis,
Eric

 

[francisdesales]

There are many models for the big bang, but I'll just assume the classical formulation. My guess? The universe is uncaused (not eternal) and is inconsistent with the existence of God. This much I have gathered from reading a little on the writings of Quentin Smith.

Btw, youtube is not the best of stages to go by making generalizations about atheists...

Finis,
Eric

I would agree that the Big Bang does not necessarily lead to an "eternity" that always existed and always will exist.

The idea is the realm of metaphysics, not quantum physics...

Naturally, I disagree with the idea that the Big Bang is inconsistent with the existence of a Supreme Creator, but there is little point in rehashing that here, it's already been done...

Regards

 

[Physicist]

So I recently came across a video challenging Atheists and thinkers of the like to give some POSITIVE arguments as to whether:
They believe the universe is eternal?,
Or not?
Why do they believe the universe is eternal?,
Or not?,
If the universe is not eternal then what caused it to exist?,
was it... itself?

In the proton accelerators that have cost untold billions the whole idea is to ram protons together so scientist's can begin to understand and explain how the "big bang' came into being. Great! Hope they get their answer.

Now, where'd the protons come from?

The protons (and other hadrons) formed when the Universe had cooled sufficiently for quarks to stably combine.

The Universe may itself be part of a larger system called the multiverse. There are tests that are not practical to perform at present, but possible in principle, that will determine the existence of the multiverse.

The question you seem to want answered is "Why is there anything?". The most responsible answer is that we do not know. This is not a popular solution, of course, so people propose an imaginary 'God-of-the gaps' to fill our knowledge vacuum. Unfortunately, this does not solve the problem, since the next obvious follow-up question is "What created the God-of-the gaps?"

 

[RND]

The protons (and other hadrons) formed when the Universe had cooled sufficiently for quarks to stably combine.

Thank you. So what's the purpose of ramming them into each other to see what the first few nano seconds of the universe was like if they didn't exist before the universe was created? Doesn't seem sensible frankly.

The Universe may itself be part of a larger system called the multiverse. There are tests that are not practical to perform at present, but possible in principle, that will determine the existence of the multiverse.

So that a theory. So far an unprovable guess.

The question you seem to want answered is "Why is there anything?".

No, my question was quite specific.

The most responsible answer is that we do not know.

So it's all a guess. BTW, I really appreciate your honesty. Trying to get this type of honesty out of the scientific crowd is as easy as finding hen's teeth.

That said, is it possible to that God have created in the part science doesn't know?

This is not a popular solution, of course, so people propose an imaginary 'God-of-the gaps' to fill our knowledge vacuum.

How much would you guess, percentage wise, is the total sum of all possible knowledge that mankind knows? Does mankind know 100% of all knowledge? 90%?

Is it possible for God to exist in the percentage mankind doesn't know?

Unfortunately, this does not solve the problem, since the next obvious follow-up question is "What created the God-of-the gaps?"

Nothing created God. He has always existed. Always has been and always will be.

 

[Physicist]

Unfortunately, this does not solve the problem, since the next obvious follow-up question is "What created the God-of-the gaps?"

Nothing created God. He has always existed. Always has been and always will be.

Better answer, by Occam's razor, is that nothing created the Universe. We know, at least, that it exists. Therefore, as long as we are speculating, we might as well take the simplest speculation. If you create an additional entity, say God, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or space alien from another dimension, whose only requirement is that it creates the Universe, you have complicated things without providing any additional information. Why should God (or the IPU) be free from creation but the Universe is not?

NOTE: Many non-scientific people get confused about the Big Bang singularity and ask what happened before the Big Bang. From Einstein, we know that space-time are properties of the Universe. It is as meaningless to ask about time before the BB as it is to ask about temperatures below absolute zero. The Universe has existed for all time because time only exists as a property of the Universe.

 

[RND]

Better answer, by Occam's razor, is that nothing created the Universe.

Nothing can't create something.

We know, at least, that it exists.

That's mighty observant of you.

Therefore, as long as we are speculating, we might as well take the simplest speculation. If you create an additional entity, say God, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or space alien from another dimension, whose only requirement is that it creates the Universe, you have complicated things without providing any additional information. Why should God (or the IPU) be free from creation but the Universe is not?

Honestly, I don't know. But I'll be sure to ask when I finally meet Him.

NOTE: Many non-scientific people get confused about the Big Bang singularity and ask what happened before the Big Bang.

That doesn't have to do with confusion. I'm as interested in knowing that just as any scientist of physicist is.

From Einstein, we know that space-time are properties of the Universe.

Which existed before Einstein so Einstein merely discovered what was already in existence.

It is as meaningless to ask about time before the BB as it is to ask about temperatures below absolute zero.

There are no temperature below absolute zero.

The Universe has existed for all time because time only exists as a property of the Universe.

Or it's the property of it's creator.

 

[mfj]

cool discussion! It seems everyone likes a challenge, a battle, to make use of our facilities! I liked how in the
movie "Michael", (I'm not posing this as adhering to christian beliefs just entertaiment) John Travolta battled the
bull, funny. Anyway, I think christians and non, both paint theirselves into corners by having a predetermined belief
about matters such as these. Both sides claim the other as closed minded and ignorant of the facts. There are alot
of christian convictions and naysayings that are also comical. Do they know how the Father created and maintained
the earth, universe, or multiverse. No they do not. They know only that He did and He did it through The Word and
Breathed Life into it. I personally love how people with different perspectives challenge each other because I think
that helps us to explore and find the real truth of things. Outside the Box is a good idiom. The universe does not
revolve around the earth. It revolves around God. The idea that the earth was formed in six of our days flies in the
face of scientific fact. It may have been but there would have been other equations in effect.
Eve gave into temptation not debate. one can not avoid temptation it pervades all things including knowledge.
The Father may let us find the equations and laws of the begining of all things created, including where protons
came from, dark matter or what ever. But it won't negate the fact of creator. Evolution has not proven that there
isn't a creator. That is a box, a trap of sorts that stimies man's quest for origen. Athiests and christians fall
into that trap.
I also like Wavy's expression "My Guess", there are many theories, let us not rule any out without fact. Way to go
Fancisdesales.
The whole box theory and stereotypical scenario is played out in the conversation between physicist and rnd. Neither
will render to the other what truths he holds but want to put the other in thier box. The challenge I would propose
to each, find the facts and let the chips fall where they may.The idea "that all things have cause" truly does imply
that some thing caused god. So it is not a good arguement, it is a box. The idea "that because one can explain or
test something and prove it scientifically means it was caused naturally and without the aid of an outside agent"
does not prove that something didn't cause that to "naturally happen". It only means there are natural laws at play.
Let the debates and conversations flow and let none of us be puffed up thinking we know it all. We simply cannot!

 

[Physicist]

Better answer, by Occam's razor, is that nothing created the Universe.

Nothing can't create something.

No, the Universe has existed for all time because time only exists as a property of the Universe, You have not shown that the Universe needs a Creation device. As an analogy, the ancients used to wonder what held up the Earth. The correct answer was nothing.

NOTE: Many non-scientific people get confused about the Big Bang singularity and ask what happened before the Big Bang.

That doesn't have to do with confusion. I'm as interested in knowing that just as any scientist of physicist is.

It is a meaningless question since time exists only in this Universe. There is no 'before' the Big Bang just as there is no temperature below absolute zero.

The Universe has existed for all time because time only exists as a property of the Universe.

Or it's the property of it's creator.

No, its a property of the Universe. Of course, one could posit additional parameters (e.g. YHWH, Zeus, IPU, space aliens from another dimension) but to do so would violate Occam's Razor.

 

[RND]

No, the Universe has existed for all time because time only exists as a property of the Universe,

Time is only relative where time can be observed. Time on earth is different than in another part of the Milky Way or the universe.

You have not shown that the Universe needs a Creation device.

Nor have you shown that it doesn't.

As an analogy, the ancients used to wonder what held up the Earth. The correct answer was nothing.

It's still "nothing" except gravity. Where did gravity come from? Who made it or did it "just happen?"

It is a meaningless question since time exists only in this Universe.

Time again is relative to where it can be observed.

There is no 'before' the Big Bang just as there is no temperature below absolute zero.

According to the scientific model there had to be a time when all the matter of the universe was compressed into a single location or mass. Science continues it's speculation about this. That matter had to come from someplace. Where did it come from? Was it made? Really, how do you know it wasn't?

[quote:1ritl50e]

The Universe has existed for all time because time only exists as a property of the Universe.

Or it's the property of it's creator.

No, its a property of the Universe.[/quote:1ritl50e] Or the property of it's creator. How do you know time wasn't created as was the universe? Just because?

Of course, one could posit additional parameters (e.g. YHWH, Zeus, IPU, space aliens from another dimension) but to do so would violate Occam's Razor.

I think if we would want to use Occam's Razor then we have to go with the one that takes credit for creation, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

If my kid has cookie crumbs all over his face, and there is spilled milk on the kitchen floor and I say, "Who ate all the cookies?" and my kid says, "I did!" Occam's Razor doesn't tell me it was the Cookie Monster. The Bible asks the question of who did this. God says, "I did!"

Do you have any shred of evidence He didn't?

 

[Physicist]

Perhaps you should study the modern concept of space-time. If you do, you will understand that, according to the General Theory of Relativity, it is a property of the Universe. Hence, irregardless of whether the clocks on earth or alpha centauri agree, there is no 'time or place when/where the Universe did not exist. Hence, the Universe is eternal, with a singularity at the BB. Do we fully understand this singularity? No we do not but sticking in the God-of-the-Gaps provides no additional information. You might as well stick in the space alien from another dimension or any other hypothetical entity.

As far the energy of the Universe, it has always existed (see above). It is only in your choice of worldview that you feel the need to posit its creation by some external entity. Others could say that their worldview requires YHWH to be created by some super God. Once you leave observable Reality, any option is as good as the other.

 

[RND]

Perhaps you should study the modern concept of space-time.

what would make you believe I haven't?

If you do, you will understand that, according to the General Theory of Relativity, it is a property of the Universe.

Yes it is.

Hence, irregardless of whether the clocks on earth or alpha centauri agree, there is no 'time or place when/where the Universe did not exist.

Maybe when making your points you will refrain from using redundant words like "irregardless." That said, There was indeed a time when the universe did not exist. How ever, observable time on earth is not the same time on Mars, Jupiter, Saturn or any other orb in the universe. When it's 4:00PM on Tuesday the 16th of something on earth what day and time is it on Mars?

Hence, the Universe is eternal, with a singularity at the BB.

Wouldn't that view make the BB irrelevant?

Do we fully understand this singularity? No we do not but sticking in the God-of-the-Gaps provides no additional information.

Ah, you just believe (have faith in) that nothing created something! OK, I gotta. You believe (have faith in) a greater "fairy tale"!

You might as well stick in the space alien from another dimension or any other hypothetical entity.

Hey, believing in that is at least believing something created something as opposed to nothing made something!

As far the energy of the Universe, it has always existed (see above).

Great, where did the energy come from. Oh, I know the answer to this one. "We don't know"!

It is only in your choice of worldview that you feel the need to posit its creation by some external entity.

Well, it is easier to believe something made something as opposed to nothing made something don't you think? I mean seriously, that take a great deal of faith don't ya think?

Others could say that their worldview requires YHWH to be created by some super God.

I'm not a Mormon so I'm OK with God saying there are no others than Him.

Once you leave observable Reality, any option is as good as the other.

At anytime in the history of "observable Reality" has anyone ever seen nothing make something? Even once?!
You really believe in such fairy tales!? Tell me something, when you blow out the candles on your birthday cake do you still think a pony will show up? How about putting a tooth under your pillow? Easter bunny? Santa Cluas? Haven't you heard the song? "Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin".

 

[Physicist]

Perhaps you should study the modern concept of space-time.

what would make you believe I haven't?

Your replies to my posts.

Hence, irregardless of whether the clocks on earth or alpha centauri agree, there is no 'time or place when/where the Universe did not exist.

Maybe when making your points you will refrain from using redundant words like "irregardless." That said, There was indeed a time when the universe did not exist. How ever, observable time on earth is not the same time on Mars, Jupiter, Saturn or any other orb in the universe. When it's 4:00PM on Tuesday the 16th of something on earth what day and time is it on Mars?

At what time did the Universe not exist? Remember, time before the BB is as meaningless as temperature below absolute zero.

Hence, the Universe is eternal, with a singularity at the BB.

Wouldn't that view make the BB irrelevant?

No, no more than the Planck scale, as a singularity in spatial scale, affects our concepts of infinite spatial dimension.

Do we fully understand this singularity? No we do not but sticking in the God-of-the-Gaps provides no additional information.

Ah, you just believe (have faith in) that nothing created something! OK, I gotta. You believe (have faith in) a greater "fairy tale"!

I have made no claim that something came from nothing. This would imply that a) there was a time when nothing existed, and b) the Universe has not remained with a constant average energy. I accept neither of those positions. It is only in your worldview that you feel the need for a creation device. Our present state of scientific knowledge does not.

You might as well stick in the space alien from another dimension or any other hypothetical entity.

Hey, believing in that is at least believing something created something as opposed to nothing made something!

Again, you are trying to imbed to Universe is some sort of absolute time and space that existed before the BB. That's 19th century physics, not 21st century physics. Only in your worldview do you have to have something come from nothing, whether that something is the Universe or YHWH.

As far the energy of the Universe, it has always existed (see above).

Great, where did the energy come from. Oh, I know the answer to this one. "We don't know"!

There are many things we don't know. I have learned to live with that fact.

It is only in your choice of worldview that you feel the need to posit its creation by some external entity.

Well, it is easier to believe something made something as opposed to nothing made something don't you think? I mean seriously, that take a great deal of faith don't ya think?

No, once you claim that the Universe needs a creator, then logically the creator needs its own creator and you start an infinite chain of creation. I am aware that Theists prefer (arbitrarily) to cut this chain at the God of their choice but there is no rational argument to do so. It makes more sense, by Occam's razor, to cut it at the Universe.