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Judy
Member
Re: Again
You need to stick to the topic. :o
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: You can find them here http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9219
Squeakybro said:
You need to stick to the topic. :o
Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.
Rule 3 - Personel conflicts:
If you have personal problems with another member, then deal with it through private messages. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself. If the problem cannot be handled through private messages, then Report problems to Mods or Admins ASAP.
- Matt. 18: 15. "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16. "But if he will not hear you, take with you one or two more, that `by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
You need to familiarize yourself with our rules.
: You can find them here http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9219
S
Squeakybro
Guest
Free
you said
Yes, I know what orthodox means. Are you going to show me where I am wrong in my understanding of John 1:1-14?
I said
You say you do but produce no evidence. I showed you where your wrong on John 1:1-14. Context. Look and see how the Holy Spirit uses them verses in the revelation on "Only begotten Son of God" and "Only begotten Word of God"
Has anyone ever explained to you that the bible is written in the milk understanding?
Matt 13:34
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
(NKJ)
1 Cor 3:2
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
(NKJ)
And you never did answer my question "Do you hate your parents?
you said
Yes, I know what orthodox means. Are you going to show me where I am wrong in my understanding of John 1:1-14?
I said
You say you do but produce no evidence. I showed you where your wrong on John 1:1-14. Context. Look and see how the Holy Spirit uses them verses in the revelation on "Only begotten Son of God" and "Only begotten Word of God"
Has anyone ever explained to you that the bible is written in the milk understanding?
Matt 13:34
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
(NKJ)
1 Cor 3:2
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
(NKJ)
And you never did answer my question "Do you hate your parents?
Judy
Member
Squeakybro said:
Again what does this have to do with the topic!!????
Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.
Now consider this a warning!
SB,
Orthodoxy literally means "what is right" or "right belief," as opposed to heresy which literally means "I prefer." The orthodox belief of the deity of Christ has been held by the church for nearly 2000 years. It is the "right belief."
Now, sticking to the topic, let's look at John 1:1-4,14:
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
The Word "was with God" and "was God," shows that the Word was God, yet distinct from God. The Word is spoken of as "he" and "him" which gives the Word personality and gender. It is the Word that "became flesh," which was in the person of Jesus. It is the Word which is the preincarnate Christ.
Also, Phil. 2:5-8, "5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Here we see again that Jesus pre-existed as God, but emptied himself to take on human flesh. This agrees with the passage in John 1.
Also, Col. 1:15-17, "15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Again, this view is consistent with the orthodox view of the passage in John 1. Jesus is before everything and everything in existence was created through him, which completely agrees with John 1:3 - "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
My position and interpretation of John 1:1-4,14 is consistent with the rest of Scripture.
Orthodoxy literally means "what is right" or "right belief," as opposed to heresy which literally means "I prefer." The orthodox belief of the deity of Christ has been held by the church for nearly 2000 years. It is the "right belief."
Now, sticking to the topic, let's look at John 1:1-4,14:
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
The Word "was with God" and "was God," shows that the Word was God, yet distinct from God. The Word is spoken of as "he" and "him" which gives the Word personality and gender. It is the Word that "became flesh," which was in the person of Jesus. It is the Word which is the preincarnate Christ.
Also, Phil. 2:5-8, "5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Here we see again that Jesus pre-existed as God, but emptied himself to take on human flesh. This agrees with the passage in John 1.
Also, Col. 1:15-17, "15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Again, this view is consistent with the orthodox view of the passage in John 1. Jesus is before everything and everything in existence was created through him, which completely agrees with John 1:3 - "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
My position and interpretation of John 1:1-4,14 is consistent with the rest of Scripture.
S
Squeakybro
Guest
Free
Sorry free but orthodox means traditional.
And why havent you answered my other question?
The question isnt that hard, do you hate your mother and father?
Sorry free but orthodox means traditional.
And why havent you answered my other question?
The question isnt that hard, do you hate your mother and father?
Judy
Member
Re: Free
Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.
Now consider this your second warning!
By you ignoring my warnings you are adding them up and disciplinary actions will be taken. And this can include banning you from here.
First and Second post offense = warning
Third offense = 1 week suspension
Forth offense... You're banned for an indefinite period of time but will be for reviewed quarterly and on an individual basis. Membership could be reinstated at that time.
Squeakybro said:
Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.
Now consider this your second warning!
By you ignoring my warnings you are adding them up and disciplinary actions will be taken. And this can include banning you from here.
First and Second post offense = warning
Third offense = 1 week suspension
Forth offense... You're banned for an indefinite period of time but will be for reviewed quarterly and on an individual basis. Membership could be reinstated at that time.
SB,
I gave you the literal interpretation of the word - "right belief." If you don't believe me, look up the etymology in a dictionary. The typical use of "orthodox" is when speaking of the "traditions" of the church, but implied in that is that these traditions contain orthodoxy, or, "right belief."
I look forward to your response to my previous post.
I gave you the literal interpretation of the word - "right belief." If you don't believe me, look up the etymology in a dictionary. The typical use of "orthodox" is when speaking of the "traditions" of the church, but implied in that is that these traditions contain orthodoxy, or, "right belief."
I look forward to your response to my previous post.
S
Squeakybro
Guest
Free Why Dont You Answer
you said
I look forward to your response to my previous post.
I said
Alot of hereticks have lots of questions, but won't answer any.
I'm still waiting do you hate your parents?
you said
I look forward to your response to my previous post.
I said
Alot of hereticks have lots of questions, but won't answer any.
I'm still waiting do you hate your parents?
S
Squeakybro
Guest
Judy
you said
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest.
I said
I understand what your saying. I dont think you understand what I'm asking free. This is strickly a spiritual question. And if he doesnt answer then I see no reason to assume he has the authority to interpret to others the Word of God. I have answered this question many times without hesitation. Real Christains dont mind.
1 Pet 3:15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
(NKJ)
you said
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest.
I said
I understand what your saying. I dont think you understand what I'm asking free. This is strickly a spiritual question. And if he doesnt answer then I see no reason to assume he has the authority to interpret to others the Word of God. I have answered this question many times without hesitation. Real Christains dont mind.
1 Pet 3:15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
(NKJ)
S
Squeakybro
Guest
Judy
Judy do you realize that alot of muslim are going into these christian websites to cause confusion. They pick at everything a christian says and then disagrees. A muslim cant answer the question I asked free. But a christian can.
Judy do you realize that alot of muslim are going into these christian websites to cause confusion. They pick at everything a christian says and then disagrees. A muslim cant answer the question I asked free. But a christian can.
Uh-oh, SB has me figured out. I admit it, I'm a Muslim disguised as a Christian defending orthodox Christianity. :-?
You do realize that this verse is talking about being "ready to give a defense...for the hope that is in you." It has nothing to do with what you are asking and what you are asking has nothing to do with this discussion.
This is the main part of rule 2 that you have been breaking, and not only in this thread:
"You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian."
You continue to imply that I am not a Christian while I am trying to debate you in a civil manner. You ask for Scriptural proof, so I give it; and when I do, you start asking a question that is completely irrelevant to the topic and fail to respond to my points.
Get this: I am not going to answer your question. Let my posts stand or fall based on the Scriptures and reasoning I have given, but do not call me a non-Christian just because we are in disagreement or because you cannot defend your faith.
Still looking forward to your response to my post on John 1:1-4,14.
You do realize that this verse is talking about being "ready to give a defense...for the hope that is in you." It has nothing to do with what you are asking and what you are asking has nothing to do with this discussion.
This is the main part of rule 2 that you have been breaking, and not only in this thread:
"You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian."
You continue to imply that I am not a Christian while I am trying to debate you in a civil manner. You ask for Scriptural proof, so I give it; and when I do, you start asking a question that is completely irrelevant to the topic and fail to respond to my points.
Get this: I am not going to answer your question. Let my posts stand or fall based on the Scriptures and reasoning I have given, but do not call me a non-Christian just because we are in disagreement or because you cannot defend your faith.
Still looking forward to your response to my post on John 1:1-4,14.
S
Squeakybro
Guest
you said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh-oh, SB has me figured out. I admit it, I'm a Muslim disguised as a Christian defending orthodox Christianity
I said
Camoflouge works on some but not me. To claim your a Muslim is to denounce Christianity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh-oh, SB has me figured out. I admit it, I'm a Muslim disguised as a Christian defending orthodox Christianity
I said
Camoflouge works on some but not me. To claim your a Muslim is to denounce Christianity.
F
FreeGrace
Guest
SqueakyBro,
John 1 as addressed earlier, and you resorted to essentially name-calling and beating-around -the-bush. Bottom-line, what do you have to say regarding that John 1 test? I do not care whether such-n-such is relying on the wisdom of man or is just being orthodox. Let's just look at the facts - let's look at the Word of God.
What John tells us in these first few verses of his gospel is very significant: Jesus is God. Before He took on human flesh, “the Word†already existed eternally as God, and was in intimate fellowship with God the Father. This is the single most important point that John wants to make in his gospel. We cannot twist John’s words to mean anything else. Our Lord Jesus Christ is God. He is eternal. He has always existed with the Father. He brought everything into being that has ever been brought into being. Personally I just do not see how someone can look at this clear statement and conclude anything less than that Jesus, the Son of God, is God. This is what John wants us to clearly understand, and it is what he gives evidence throughout his gospel IOT establish his point.
Just think about it: The same God who created the universe is that baby who was lying in a manger in Bethlehem. John also wants us to know that this “Jesus†he introduces as "the Word" is the Messiah (Greek - "Christ" - KRISTOS) prophesied in the OT. And this, the Son of God, took on flesh - He BECAME man. Jesus did not start His existence when he was born over 2000 years ago now. And since He created the universe ("without Him nothing came into being that has come into being.") He obviously predates it.
This strong statement that Jesus Christ is God is made throughout the Gospel of John. Here's some passages in John where that can be seen:
Now let's look at the next few verses in John 1:
3 All things were created through him, and apart from him not one thing was created (lit. - "came into being") that has been created. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of man. 5 And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1, 2 place our Jesus Christ at the very beginningâ€â€in fact, before the beginning, as we have already seen. He was there with the Father before the world existed. (Greek PROS - translated "with" is often described as being "nose-to-nose" - intimacy is intended here.) Now, in verse 3, John goes on to show that the Word not only existed in the beginning, but He was the source of all things that ever came into being." He was not created, the Creator. And He did not just create all things for God, He created all things as God. All things came into being through Him. The “Word†spoke, and all things came into existence. Period.
John 1:4 -> Remember the light imagery we see in Genesis 1? ...the contrast between light and darkness? Well we see the same thing again here. John obviously was trying to draw the theoughts of the reader back to Genesis 1.
OK, let's look at John 1:5. This verse has been translated moe than one way. I will list the NET translation, but what the KJV, the NKJV and the NIV have done are equally valid: "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (NKJV)
Many Bibles have, "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." (RSV, ESV, HCSB) Ths is also valid. The NET translated it as "mastered." “And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered itâ€Â
The Greek word (KATALAMBANO) can have the sense of “grasping†or “comprehending†with the mind, but also have the idea of “overpowering†or "overcoming.†Jesus came into the world as the true “light,†but lost men were not able to understand it. Or perhaps, as some Bibles have it, Jesus came into the world, revealing its sin and need, and the world chose to remain in its sin, thus seeking to oppose and even to overcome the light, but it could not do so.
Let me end by saying that many see "and the Word was God" as emphasizing identity for Christ. Now while I do not believe that it should be translated "a god" of course. I do believe that we should look at "quality" rather than "identity" in translating this clause. The NET has it, "and the Word was fully God." They also allow "and what God was the Word was.†The note adds that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). They say that "The Word was divine" would work well in English except that we have other concepts when we use the word "divine" in English.
Later, when I have more time, but only if you aregenuinely interested in considering the truth - in looking at some facts - we can address specifically John 1:1c and the proper understanding of the Greek anarthrous (lacking an article) use of THEOS. Those who claim that it means that "The Word was a god" have simply made a very basic blunder in their understanding of Greek grammar.
Would you like to discuss either the several places in John listed above where the deity of Christ is clear or John 1:1?
Thx,
FG
John 1 as addressed earlier, and you resorted to essentially name-calling and beating-around -the-bush. Bottom-line, what do you have to say regarding that John 1 test? I do not care whether such-n-such is relying on the wisdom of man or is just being orthodox. Let's just look at the facts - let's look at the Word of God.
What John tells us in these first few verses of his gospel is very significant: Jesus is God. Before He took on human flesh, “the Word†already existed eternally as God, and was in intimate fellowship with God the Father. This is the single most important point that John wants to make in his gospel. We cannot twist John’s words to mean anything else. Our Lord Jesus Christ is God. He is eternal. He has always existed with the Father. He brought everything into being that has ever been brought into being. Personally I just do not see how someone can look at this clear statement and conclude anything less than that Jesus, the Son of God, is God. This is what John wants us to clearly understand, and it is what he gives evidence throughout his gospel IOT establish his point.
Just think about it: The same God who created the universe is that baby who was lying in a manger in Bethlehem. John also wants us to know that this “Jesus†he introduces as "the Word" is the Messiah (Greek - "Christ" - KRISTOS) prophesied in the OT. And this, the Son of God, took on flesh - He BECAME man. Jesus did not start His existence when he was born over 2000 years ago now. And since He created the universe ("without Him nothing came into being that has come into being.") He obviously predates it.
This strong statement that Jesus Christ is God is made throughout the Gospel of John. Here's some passages in John where that can be seen:
Now let's look at the next few verses in John 1:
3 All things were created through him, and apart from him not one thing was created (lit. - "came into being") that has been created. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of man. 5 And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1, 2 place our Jesus Christ at the very beginningâ€â€in fact, before the beginning, as we have already seen. He was there with the Father before the world existed. (Greek PROS - translated "with" is often described as being "nose-to-nose" - intimacy is intended here.) Now, in verse 3, John goes on to show that the Word not only existed in the beginning, but He was the source of all things that ever came into being." He was not created, the Creator. And He did not just create all things for God, He created all things as God. All things came into being through Him. The “Word†spoke, and all things came into existence. Period.
John 1:4 -> Remember the light imagery we see in Genesis 1? ...the contrast between light and darkness? Well we see the same thing again here. John obviously was trying to draw the theoughts of the reader back to Genesis 1.
OK, let's look at John 1:5. This verse has been translated moe than one way. I will list the NET translation, but what the KJV, the NKJV and the NIV have done are equally valid: "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (NKJV)
Many Bibles have, "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." (RSV, ESV, HCSB) Ths is also valid. The NET translated it as "mastered." “And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered itâ€Â
The Greek word (KATALAMBANO) can have the sense of “grasping†or “comprehending†with the mind, but also have the idea of “overpowering†or "overcoming.†Jesus came into the world as the true “light,†but lost men were not able to understand it. Or perhaps, as some Bibles have it, Jesus came into the world, revealing its sin and need, and the world chose to remain in its sin, thus seeking to oppose and even to overcome the light, but it could not do so.
Let me end by saying that many see "and the Word was God" as emphasizing identity for Christ. Now while I do not believe that it should be translated "a god" of course. I do believe that we should look at "quality" rather than "identity" in translating this clause. The NET has it, "and the Word was fully God." They also allow "and what God was the Word was.†The note adds that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). They say that "The Word was divine" would work well in English except that we have other concepts when we use the word "divine" in English.
Later, when I have more time, but only if you aregenuinely interested in considering the truth - in looking at some facts - we can address specifically John 1:1c and the proper understanding of the Greek anarthrous (lacking an article) use of THEOS. Those who claim that it means that "The Word was a god" have simply made a very basic blunder in their understanding of Greek grammar.
Would you like to discuss either the several places in John listed above where the deity of Christ is clear or John 1:1?
Thx,
FG
S
Squeakybro
Guest
I have a son and he is not me. I dont know how you people come up with the comparison. I do know this that you are calling Jesus a liar.
Because Jesus said the Father is the only true God.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
Because Jesus said the Father is the only true God.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
F
FreeGrace
Guest
SB,Squeakybro said:
Consider the context:
Yes, jesus is the revelation of theFather to thisworld. Consider John 14 below...
What conclusions can we make from the above verses?
1 - To know Jesus is to know the Father.
2 - To have seen Jesus is to have seen the Father (God).
And consider that when Thomas called Him God and his Lord and worshipped Him that Jesus did not stop him from doing that. Consider the clear declaration in John 1 that Jesus was with God from the very beginning, and is God.
Now, instead of attacking people and feeling attacked, let's simply address scripture.
FG
S
Squeakybro
Guest
you said
And consider that when Thomas called Him God and his Lord and worshipped Him that Jesus did not stop him from doing that. Consider the clear declaration in John 1 that Jesus was with God from the very beginning, and is God.
I said
That is perverted logic. Many times Jesus answered nothing. And you want to use that as some kind of logic that it means something.
John 18:21-22
21 "Why do you ask Me? Ask those who have heard Me what I said to them. Indeed they know what I said."
22 And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, "Do You answer the high priest like that?"
(NKJ)
Matt 27:12-14
12 And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
13 Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"
14 And He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.
(NKJ)
Mark 15:3-5
3 And the chief priests accused Him of many things, but He answered nothing.
4 Then Pilate asked Him again, saying, "Do You answer nothing? See how many things they testify against You!"
5 But Jesus still answered nothing, so that Pilate marveled.
(NKJ)
And consider that when Thomas called Him God and his Lord and worshipped Him that Jesus did not stop him from doing that. Consider the clear declaration in John 1 that Jesus was with God from the very beginning, and is God.
I said
That is perverted logic. Many times Jesus answered nothing. And you want to use that as some kind of logic that it means something.
John 18:21-22
21 "Why do you ask Me? Ask those who have heard Me what I said to them. Indeed they know what I said."
22 And when He had said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, "Do You answer the high priest like that?"
(NKJ)
Matt 27:12-14
12 And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
13 Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"
14 And He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.
(NKJ)
Mark 15:3-5
3 And the chief priests accused Him of many things, but He answered nothing.
4 Then Pilate asked Him again, saying, "Do You answer nothing? See how many things they testify against You!"
5 But Jesus still answered nothing, so that Pilate marveled.
(NKJ)
F
FreeGrace
Guest
SB,
Would it have been right for Jesus to allow Thomas to worship him and say/do nothing? When that happened to Paul he tore his tunic and ran out and stopped them from doing that.
Jesus allowed Thomas to worship Him because it was appropriate.
But let's talk about John 1, OK?
FG
Would it have been right for Jesus to allow Thomas to worship him and say/do nothing? When that happened to Paul he tore his tunic and ran out and stopped them from doing that.
Jesus allowed Thomas to worship Him because it was appropriate.
But let's talk about John 1, OK?
FG