The "dead in Christ" are rising, 1 Thessalonains 4:16

[Dan Edwin]

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The word “dead†is found numerous times in the Bible. But in various translations of early New Testament writings, different Greek words have been translated to mean “deadâ€Â. The word “dead†in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the same word found in 1 Corinthians 15:35, Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1, 5, and Revelation 14:13. By definition and context, we can see this word “dead†pertains to being spiritually dead, separated from God by trespasses and sins. A second Greek word, sometimes translated to mean “deadâ€Â, actually means “to dieâ€Â, and is seen in Romans 6:7, Colossians 3:3, Hebrews 9:27, and 1 Corinthians 15:36.

Those who confess Jesus is the Son of God have power to become a child of God (John 1:12). We are baptized with water in the name of Jesus Christ in faith and obedience to the command of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:19-20) to be forgiven of past sins. We repent by confessing our sins and turning from the world and sin to be made alive together with Christ (born again) by being reconciled to God when forgiven of all trespasses and sins. We need to forgive the trespasses of others and try to be forgiven by others for our trespasses against them to be forgiven of all trespasses and be born again. We also need to turn from “perpetual†(ongoing) sins in our life, such as hate and covetousness. This is why it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. We want heaven, but the wealthy often love money more than the Lord, their neighbor in need.

Repentant believers are made alive (born again) as a child of God in the resurrection together with Christ when forgiven of all trespasses and sins. Because Christ becomes the life within us when we are born again, we are raised up together from corruption to incorruption, from weakness to power, and from dishonor to glory. God purifies us of sin to make us holy by sanctification of the Spirit, until we are seen as pure in heart when we are “changed†to put on “perfection†(immortality) by baptism of the Holy Spirit of God the Father, to be a “son/daughter†of God and heir of the Kingdom of God.

Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Those dead in trespasses and sins are made alive and raised up incorruptible together with Christ (born again) when forgiven of all trespasses and sins. We are then purified of sin as we are conformed to the image of Jesus Christ to have our mortal body “changed†to put on immortality when baptized by the Holy Spirit of God the Father. This is when our body is changed from a natural to a spiritual body, the resurrection of the body.

 

[Bick]

Quote by Dan:
'For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The word “dead†is found numerous times in the Bible. But in various translations of early New Testament writings, different Greek words have been translated to mean “deadâ€Â. The word “dead†in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the same word found in 1 Corinthians 15:35, Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1, 5, and Revelation 14:13. By definition and context, we can see this word “dead†pertains to being spiritually dead, separated from God by trespasses and sins. A second Greek word, sometimes translated to mean “deadâ€Â, actually means “to dieâ€Â, and is seen in Romans 6:7, Colossians 3:3, Hebrews 9:27, and 1 Corinthians 15:36.'

MY RESPONSE: It is true that in the NT, the prevalent Greek word "nekros" means "dead" and can be a noun, or an adjective, and is the word predominately translated "dead". But, according to the context, IMO, it could be literal or figurative, but not "spiritually".

Death in its literal sense is the opposite of life. Figuratively, it could perhaps mean, 'lack of feeling, desire, response'.

It's true, in the 1 Thessalonian and 1 Corinthian passages you listed, as well as those in Colossians,
Ephesians and Revelation, "dead" is from the same Greek word. But that proves nothing, for there are 117 other verses in which "nekros" occurs, and the great majority are speaking of a literal death. Check it out.

Looking at the context of the verses revealing to us the secret of the "rapture", that is 1 Cor. 15:1ff and 1 Thes. 4:13-17, Paul is telling us that the dead (literal) in Christ will be raised first and then we who remain unto His presence, will be changed and meet those raised in the air, and together meet the Lord in the air, and then be taken to the heavenlies, as we read in Ephesians.

Spiritual, spiritually have to do with the spirit, with life. "Spiritually dead" is like saying "life-death," to me, which doesn't make sense. Of course, from Adam on, all humanity is dying, and apart from God's Spirit using His Word to bring life, no one would be saved.

 

[Bick]

Quote from Dan:
'Those who confess Jesus is the Son of God have power to become a child of God (John 1:12). We are baptized with water in the name of Jesus Christ in faith and obedience to the command of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:19-20) to be forgiven of past sins. We repent by confessing our sins and turning from the world and sin to be made alive together with Christ (born again) by being reconciled to God when forgiven of all trespasses and sins. We need to forgive the trespasses of others and try to be forgiven by others for our trespasses against them to be forgiven of all trespasses and be born again. We also need to turn from “perpetual†(ongoing) sins in our life, such as hate and covetousness. This is why it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. We want heaven, but the wealthy often love money more than the Lord, their neighbor in need.

Repentant believers are made alive (born again) as a child of God in the resurrection together with Christ when forgiven of all trespasses and sins. Because Christ becomes the life within us when we are born again, we are raised up together from corruption to incorruption, from weakness to power, and from dishonor to glory. God purifies us of sin to make us holy by sanctification of the Spirit, until we are seen as pure in heart when we are “changed†to put on “perfection†(immortality) by baptism of the Holy Spirit of God the Father, to be a “son/daughter†of God and heir of the Kingdom of God.'

MY RESPONSE: I think it good to quote verses 11 through 13 of John 1: "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." KJV.

So, while his own (the nation Israel, as a whole) refused to receive him as their messiah, John writes that as many as received him, were given authority to become sons of God. That certainly opened it up to Gentile proselytes, for he had little or nothing to do with Gentiles during his earthly ministry.

From my studies, I understand believers in the good news concerning the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, are members of His body, a special group not known in ages past, but revealed to Paul. Water baptism may be a rite for joining a church, but it is not necessary for salvation.

Paul himself says in 1 Cor. 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of none effect."

Our salvation is through the grace of God (Eph. 2:8,9). Not only are we saved by faith because it is the gift of God, but we are kept saved through His grace.

All belivers in Christ have been baptized, identified with, into Christ through the Spirit:

Rom.6:3ff, "...don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection." NIV.

1 Cor. 12:13, "For we were all baptized into one body---whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free---and were all given one Spirit to drink." NIV.

Gal. 3:26, 27, "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." NIV.

Eph. 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit---just as you were called to one hope when you were called---one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." NIV.
Col.2:11, "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." NIV.

We are new creations in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:17) Paul never uses "born again". Jesus said it to Nicodemus and, since he was a leader of the Jews, to the Jews.

 

[Christian Commando]

Pray you won't mind my input here-

The "dead" of which was spoken of in the first group of Scriptures means- "literally" dead. Why?

God declares for a christian - "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. therefore, as Scriptures also dictate, at phys. death, a Christian's phys. body is "asleep" -dead, in the ground, while thier spirit is in Heaven. Yet, when Christ comes in the Rapture to meet His Sheep at the clouds- The dead- (bodies dead in ground), shall rise first, then those who are alive, shall be caught up with them and so forever be with the Lord.

Spiritually dead is being unsaved and seperated from God, heading for Hell- (dead in Christ).

Read the story of Richman and Lazarus.

Very good responces.

God bless!!

 

[Drew]

God declares for a christian - "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. therefore, as Scriptures also dictate, at phys. death, a Christian's phys. body is "asleep" -dead, in the ground, while thier spirit is in Heaven.

I am not sure what translation that you use to get "be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord" out of what I assume is 2 Cor 5:8. Here are a few of the translations:

NIV
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord

NASB
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord

KJV
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

None of the above have the strong sense of equating the absence from the body as is present in your version: "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

Which version expresses this statement in the way that you have described?

The careful reader, who is open to considering other interpretations of the NIV, NASB, and KJV versions will note that those renderings do not force us to conclude that being absent from the body requires that we can only be in one place - present with the Lord.

Paul may be speaking in terms of what it is like for him, as a subject of experience, to die. The statement is still valid in the context of intepretation where the human person "sleeps" for many years between physical death and resurrection. That such "what things will seem like to me" statements are in common use is clear from the following example:

"I got hit in the head with the baseball bat and then I saw the doctors and nurses looking down at me as I lay in a hospital bed."

This statement is entirely consistent with a factual state of affairs where I was unconscious for several hours. I am not saying that one second after being hit, I was in the hospital bed.

2 Cor 5:8 is repeatedly used as evidence that we transition immediately from this world to heaven. I think that the above argument shows that this conclusion is simply not justified. The text, while consistent with this "we go straight to heaven" view is also consistent with a "we sleep until called forth" view.

And the rich man and the Lazarus account does not settle the matter either. It could be a parable (and I believe that it is). Unless someone can make a compelling case that it is not, neither the Luke 16 account, or 2 Cor 5:8 text show that the conscious spirit of the human person goes immediately to Heaven at death.

 

[DavidLee]

Unless someone can make a compelling case that it is not, neither the Luke 16 account, or 2 Cor 5:8 text show that the conscious spirit of the human person goes immediately to Heaven at death.

I'm curious as to what you would consider compelling? I've read many of your posts on various subjects and you seem to try very hard to see what's hidden and discount what is readily apparent to the unbiased reader. Why is that?
Again, I'm just curious, but I would appreciate a response.

 

[Drew]

Unless someone can make a compelling case that it is not, neither the Luke 16 account, or 2 Cor 5:8 text show that the conscious spirit of the human person goes immediately to Heaven at death.

I'm curious as to what you would consider compelling? I've read many of your posts on various subjects and you seem to try very hard to see what's hidden and discount what is readily apparent to the unbiased reader. Why is that?
Again, I'm just curious, but I would appreciate a response.

Where is your evidence that I am biased?

I am not the one, for example, who thinks that being "made alive" at the return of Christ as per 1 Cor 15:22-23 involves being made "alive" from a state where my spirit is already enjoying all the rich experience of consciousness, interaction with others, praising God, etc in Heaven. I suggest that the unbiased approach to such a text is to take it at its face value - that we really have no life content from the moment we die until Christ calls us forth.

Here is the text:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

And where is the bias in taking the word "sleep" to denote what common sense tells us it denotes - a state of unconsciousness? If consciousness continues after death, why use a metaphor that denotes a state of unconsciousness to represent it?

And where is the bias in my take on Ecclesiastes 9:5?

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

What do you think this text means? I think it means what it says - the dead do indeed know nothing. Do you think it means that their body "knows" nothing but their spirit in Heaven does? Where does this text draw such a distinction? And how is "body knowledge" different from "spirit knowledge"? Can you name an item of knowledge from each category (if you believe in such a distinction)?

If my argument about 2 Cor 5:8 is incorrect, presumably it can be shown to be such. Please do so. Are you disputing that when I say:

"I got hit in the head with the baseball bat and then I saw the doctors and nurses looking down at me as I lay in a hospital bed."

that an unbiased reading is that I was transported instantaneously from the baseball field to the hospital?

Again what really matters are Biblical arguments that are correct. If my arguments are incorrect, readers are more than welcome to point out the flaws. I believe very much in the "free marketplace" of ideas. I have changed my mind numerous times on Christian doctrine.

 

[DavidLee]

Where is your evidence that I am biased?

Forgive me. I did not mean to imply that you are biased. I can supply no evidence to that.
I submit that your posts indicate a position on some subjects that are contrary to the general position held by unbiased (I can think of no better word) readers.

What do you think this text means? I think it means what it says - the dead do indeed know nothing. Do you think it means that their body "knows" nothing but their spirit in Heaven does? Where does this text draw such a distinction? And how is "body knowledge" different from "spirit knowledge"? Can you name an item of knowledge from each category (if you believe in such a distinction)?

Again, I only asked what evidence you would consider compelling.
You seemed to have answered what I did not ask. You saw some hidden meaning in what I said, when there was none. Perhaps I did not phrase my question correctly. For that I am sorry. I do not think it's profitable to argue the merits of one opinion over another especially if there are differing opinions as to what is authoritative and accurate and thus compelling.

1 Corinthians 1:17 (English Standard Version)
"17For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

Allow me to ask again: What do you consider compelling evidence?

 

[Drew]

Where is your evidence that I am biased?

Forgive me. I did not mean to imply that you are biased. I can supply no evidence to that.
I submit that your posts indicate a position on some subjects that are contrary to the general position held by unbiased (I can think of no better word) readers.

I appreciate your polite manner - I really do. We need more of that - and I can improve in that area as well. I agree that my position on things like what happens after death deviates from the mainstream. And I think we will agree is that we should see what the Scriptures actually say about these things and not even concern ourselves with issues of "bias".

What do you think this text means? I think it means what it says - the dead do indeed know nothing. Do you think it means that their body "knows" nothing but their spirit in Heaven does? Where does this text draw such a distinction? And how is "body knowledge" different from "spirit knowledge"? Can you name an item of knowledge from each category (if you believe in such a distinction)?

Again, I only asked what evidence you would consider compelling.
You seemed to have answered what I did not ask. You saw some hidden meaning in what I said, when there was none. Perhaps I did not phrase my question correctly. For that I am sorry. I do not think it's profitable to argue the merits of one opinion over another especially if there are differing opinions as to what is authoritative and accurate and thus compelling.

I think we will agree that the Scriptures are authoritative and accurate. The real question, I think, is this: "Which view do the Scriptures support - that the redeemed dead are conscious in Heaven or that they "slee" waiting to be called forth." All the people in this discussion agree that the Scriptures are accurate and authoritative.

Allow me to ask again: What do you consider compelling evidence?

I assume you are asking about what I consider to be compelling evidence that the redeemed dead "sleep". Is that what you are asking?

 

[DavidLee]

I agree that my position on things like what happens after death deviates from the mainstream. And I think we will agree is that we should see what the Scriptures actually say about these things and not even concern ourselves with issues of "bias".

Yes, bias is not the right word. Perhaps predisposition is a better word.
What do the scriptures actually say? The language is rather simple. I do not believe that there are hidden, or deeper truths that counter the plain language or the apparent truth. I think that some passages can add to our understanding of another passage, but this must be done carefully when the subject matter differs.

I think we will agree that the Scriptures are authoritative and accurate. The real question, I think, is this: "Which view do the Scriptures support - that the redeemed dead are conscious in Heaven or that they "slee" waiting to be called forth." All the people in this discussion agree that the Scriptures are accurate and authoritative.

Yes. The problem is that there are differing opinions as to what they say. I see one thing (that is generally considered correct) and you see another. When what we read leads us to believe something that runs counter to a widely held interpretation (I don't like that word), we need to evaluate our interpretation. We (I mean us all) have an inclination to decide that our way is best or even the most fair. We decide that God didn't really mean what He said, or that it was for a diferent time.

I assume you are asking about what I consider to be compelling evidence that the redeemed dead "sleep". Is that what you are asking?

No. That's not what I'm asking. When do you decide that the common belief is not correct? I'm not talking of traditions that run counter to scripture (I don't want to give examples, but I can. We all know of a few). To my knowledge Paul never refers to a dead believer as anything other than asleep. This body must die because it's corruptible, and it will be raised incorruptible. I think he said it that way to imply or define the temporary state of bodily death. This was to comfort believers. I don't think the scriptures say we go into some kind of etheral storage awaiting the resurrection/judgement.

You have said (another thread I think) that you think the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a fable, but you have given no evidence (that I'm aware of) to support that contention. I don't think evidence is needed in any case because the Lord could not have illustrated a lie. The parables He told were to illustrate the truth in a way to hide it from certain people. I suppose you have to determine what He was trying to illustrate. It's much easier to understand if you accept the story at face value (in my opinion). It does illustrate a hard truth.
Forgive me if I have misread your comments as to what you believe.

I have not addressed your questions.

And where is the bias in taking the word "sleep" to denote what common sense tells us it denotes - a state of unconsciousness? If consciousness continues after death, why use a metaphor that denotes a state of unconsciousness to represent it?

When I'm asleep I'm not unconscious.
unconscious |ˌənˈkän sh əs| adjective not conscious : the boy was beaten unconscious. • done or existing without one realizing : he would wipe back his hair in an unconscious gesture of annoyance. • [ predic. ] ( unconscious of) unaware of : “What is it?†he said again, unconscious of the repetition. noun ( the unconscious) the part of the mind that is inaccessible to the conscious mind but that affects behavior and emotions. DERIVATIVES unconsciously adverb unconsciousness noun

What do you think this text means? I think it means what it says - the dead do indeed know nothing. Do you think it means that their body "knows" nothing but their spirit in Heaven does? Where does this text draw such a distinction? And how is "body knowledge" different from "spirit knowledge"? Can you name an item of knowledge from each category (if you believe in such a distinction)?

I think that Solomon was not giving a description of death.
Here it is in context (at least partially):
Ecclesiastes 9:4, 5, 6 (English Standard Version)
"4But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun."

Solomon was saying (eventually) to enjoy life while you live.

If my argument about 2 Cor 5:8 is incorrect, presumably it can be shown to be such. Please do so. Are you disputing that when I say:

"I got hit in the head with the baseball bat and then I saw the doctors and nurses looking down at me as I lay in a hospital bed."

that an unbiased reading is that I was transported instantaneously from the baseball field to the hospital?

It would not occur to me to wonder how you were transported. I would be waiting for your next statement. I do not read anything into 2 Cor 5:8 at all. Paul was simply stating his desire to be with the Lord. The entire first portion of that chapter does seem to run counter to your belief of nonexistance at bodily death (at least to me).

 

[guibox]

Dan,

The evidence here taken into context with Paul's other passages of the literal second coming of God, particularily 1 Corinthians 15, as well as the words of Christ in John 14:1-3 and Matthew 24, tell us that Paul is speaking of the 'parousia' here in 1 Thessalonians. Not a spiritual coming but the second literal coming where the Messiah would claim His own.

'the dead in Christ will rise first' ,
'we shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord'

I fail to see here with the clear words of all of 1 Corinthians 15 that one can say that the second coming is a spiritual coming to wake all the spiritually dead. How exactly are some people spiritually dead but we are 'alive'? Didn't Paul say we all are dead until Christ regenerates us? That would mean Christ had to have spiritually come for Paul and the others before the events he describes in 1 Thessalonians 4?

Is this 'spiritual' coming an ongoing thing? If so, isn't this explained clearly in the scriptures as the sanctifying process? Why the need to speak cryptically and metaphorically in 1 Thessalonians 4 about that which the scriptures are clear on elsewhere?

A spiritual coming makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Christian Commando]

Drew-

KJV- II Cor. 5:8- "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

I think that says the same as I said, with just one different word. So, what your point? The meaning of the Scripture was the same.

5:6 makes this plain my friend- "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."

So, how can anyone miss this plain understanding? If still alive, your spirit is still bonded to your body- 5:6, but when your phys. body dies, your spirit seperates and imediately (for a Child of God), goes to be with God in Heaven- v 8.

No, Paul is not equating that for his own experience, as he continually states- "we", for expressing the understanding all God's Children will experience this.

So you think Scriptures don't prove we go strait to one place or the other? What about the story of the richman and Lazarus, where the richman died and lifted up his eyes from Hell. (No loose wonderings around mentioned there), and Lazarus died, and Angels crried Lazarus into the bosom of Abraham. (Another direct route there with no spirit wondering around loose).

Yes, this was a Parable, but what does Christ say about His Teachings? That He would not have told us if it were not true.

Those "renderings" as you called them shouldn't have to "force" a logical understanding that comes across plain as day, from reading them.

And "soul sleep" is negated when look at the IICor. 5:6 and 8 references, showing if phys. alive, we are "absent" from the Lord, 8- "present "with" the Lord", not in Him. As the "soul sleep" belief, relies upon Gen. 2:7, believing the "spirit" of man is the actual "Breath" of God, even tho the original Hebrew word here means- "spoken".

God constantly thru His Word, "commanded"- (spoke) all things, including the physical world into existance. Ths when "God breathed the Breath of life into his nostrils"- God had spoken life into Adam.

Well, the "soul sleep" belief belongs to a spiritualized version of God's Word tho, not a literal interpretation of it. Thus, if want to believe that, you'll have to change a multitude of other Scriptures to back it up, which usaully messes up more of the literal understanding of God's Word.

And Satan was the first one, as the Serpent, to use God's own Word, in a twisted way with Eve, to convince her of a lie. Then he tried to do the same with Christ at His temptation.

Well, if you cannot trust Jesus Christ to be telling the Truth, then you must not be saved and reborn, for its clear you don't trust God's own speaking to His people or Christ's own words to people.

That means, you are not saved and reborn. Why? Jesus said, unless a man be born again, he shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven. How do you recieve Salvation? Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Thus, if you don't have the faith to believe what God and Christ declares literally in thier Word, you can't have the faith to be saved and reborn. Right? The Holy Spirit would never enlighten a person to understand they are lost, to accept Salvation, come to dwell within them and not show them to believe the rest of God's Word literally.

Unless, that person is the part of the group that falls away from the faith, made manifest they were never of us.

God Bless!

 

[guibox]

So, how can anyone miss this plain understanding? If still alive, your spirit is still bonded to your body- 5:6, but when your phys. body dies, your spirit seperates and imediately (for a Child of God), goes to be with God in Heaven- v 8.
And "soul sleep" is negated when look at the IICor. 5:6 and 8 references, showing if phys. alive, we are "absent" from the Lord, 8- "present "with" the Lord", not in Him. As the "soul sleep" belief, relies upon Gen. 2:7, believing the "spirit" of man is the actual "Breath" of God, even tho the original Hebrew word here means- "spoken".

Christian, to make this verse say what you think is to ignore:

1) The context of the last few verses of chapter 4 and the first 7 verses of chapter 5 which speak of resurrection of the body
2) The parallel language used in 1 Corinthians 15

Plus you have to come to the passage with the assumption that 'to be absent from the body' means to 'live on in the spirit'. This cannot be gleaned from the passage, and nowhere are the words for 'spirit' (pnuema) or 'soul' (psuche) found.

Please read the following very carefully and you will understand. Thanks

If you look at the other verses preceding vs 8, (2 Corinthians 4:11-18; 5:2-4,) and refer back to 1 Corinthians 15, we actually see that Paul speaks about resurrection and not an immortal soul.

You see, most people merely look at verse 6 and/or 8 and build their theology around it (while ignoring Paul's own words elsewhere that contradict it), instead of looking at the context and use cross-referencing to further explain what is, at best, an ambiguous verse on the afterlife.

Let's take a look at the verses preceding it:

For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. so then death worketh in us, but life in you....Knowing that He which raised up the Lord Jesus, shall raise up us also by Jesus and shall present us with you...While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the thitgs which are seen are temporal but the things which are not seen are eternal – 2 Corinthians 4:11,14,18

We see that Paul is saying two things:

1) We look beyond to things we know will be, that which is eternal
2) That we, like Christ will be resurrected (see also 1 Thessalonians 4:14)

Paul is looking forward to this. Notice that he continues this thought right into Chapter 5

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens - vs 1

This 'house' is talking about a body. Not a body of this earth, but a body not made with hands, that of eternal quality.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven - vs 2

Paul's desire is to put on this 'house' to be clothed with this immortality (are you noticing the references here to 1 Corinthians 15:51,51?)

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked vs 3

Paul doesn't want to be found naked. This is talking about the intermediate period of death.

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened not for that we would be unclothed but clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life - vs 4

So we see that Paul's desire is that we are not left 'naked' but clothed in immortality. Now the language used here points to a resurrection body, not an ethereal substance. Notice also that immortality must be 'put on' and not something inherently automatic in itself, or in us.

We must go to 1 Corinthians 15 now before we continue:

But some will say, how are the dead raised up and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die...But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body...So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption...It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. - vs 35,36,42

We see that the earthly house must be abandoned and to be accepted into heaven, we must put on the spiritual house

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption - vs 50

Our sinful bodies cannot go to heaven. We must put it off for a new body.

In the last moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. for the last trump shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.- vs 52,53

Now lets go back to 2 Corinthians 5

Therefore we are always confident that knowing that while we are home in the body, we are absent from the Lord - vs 6

Paul is saying that as long as we have this body of flesh, this earthly tabernacle, we cannot be with the Lord. According to verse2, Paul groans that we be 'clothed with that which is in heaven. that 'mortality be swallowed up in life'. This is the resurrection he is talking about here!

We are confident, I say and willing to be absent for the body and to be present with the Lord - vs 8

Notice that Paul doesn't say WHEN this will occur, but merely the fact that it will. The manner is clearly spelled out in the verses previous in link with 1 Corinthians 15: Paul desires that we put off this flesh and receive our new bodies that we not be 'left naked' or remain in the grave.

not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life - vs 2

What is Paul talking about? Notice the direct link to the resurrection!

So when this mortal puts on immortality and this corruption puts on incorruption, then shall be brought to pass the saying, 'death is swallowed up in victory! - 1 Corinthians 15:54

Paul states quite frankly in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 when this "unclothed" state is done away with and immortality is assured. (see also 2nd Timothy 4:6-8 where Paul speaks about his departure being at hand and then says that it will occur at the last day for all people which cross references to 1 Corinthians 15:23 and John 6:40)
This verse is talking about the promise of the resurrection where we receive spiritual bodies, not an immortal, ethereal substance that survives death. We are talking about tangible bodies. You cannot read an immortal soul going into heaven into this text for a number of reasons:

1) Paul continually speaks of a 'body'
2) Nowhere is the word 'soul' or 'spirit' used or mentioned
3) Nowhere does it state WHEN all of this would occur. It is automatically assumed that to be 'absent from the body' is to be IMMEDIATELY present with the Lord

 

[Christian Commando]

guibox-

Very interesting, yet to answer your replies, I must ask you something.

When Christ suffered the phys. torment, then phys. died and was buried, Scriture tells us He descended to Hell for 3 days and nights suffering the weight of the sins of the world and men upon Him that whole time.

So, my question is, was Jesus' "Spirit", just the "Breath" of God as well which went to Hell? If so, how then could the "Breath" of God suffer the torment of sin?

How could the "Breath of God as the spirit of the "richman" lift up his eyes from Hell. Breath would not have eyes, or a mouth to speak as the richman had.

Secondly- How do you explain the one and only time, God allowed a Child of His to appear as a "spirit being", before King Saul when saught the witch that last time and Samuel appeared to him?

How could spirits or "souls" of people just be the "Breath of God, as "in spirit", in Heaven, when the opening of the fifth seal- Rev. 7:9-11, there appeared an atar with the souls of them that were slain, in v 11,God gave them "robes" to wear and spoke to them.

Thus, how can a spirit, which is the "Breath" of God with no form or shape, be able to wear clothing? Or be able to see or speak as these had?

Now, you can say all of these things are spiritual and not meant literally and thats fine. You can go back as the "Breath" of God and return into Him when you phys. die. But, I praise God He made me a "spirit being"- (Body is lifeless without the spirit), that I can be present "with" God, not "in" Him when I die.

And what about Genesis 1:27-29 where God "creates"- (brings forth something from nothing), Adam and Eve's "spirits" first simultaneously and speaks to them and instructs them, and waits until fully has earth prepared for thier physical existance before "making"- (combining that which already exists into something else), thier phys. bodies, and at seperate times as well- Gen. 2:7- (Adam), 2:20-23- (Eve)?

I suggest you rethink what your trying to prove here. As do not take part of God's Word literally then turn around and take the rest of It spiritually to confuse things. For even the unsaved God declares can understand the literal meaning of His Word, its the spiritual side of It they cannot.

God Bless!!

 

[Vic C.]

If I may interject for a moment...

I don't know if this affects the conversation (I think it might though); Free, myself and others brought to light in other topics and posts that Jesus didn't actually go to hell when He died. Hades is simply the grave. Hell is gehenna or geenna. Two different words' two different places.

Acts 2:31 (literal translation, LITV)

31 foreseeing, he spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, "that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption."

That's all I wanted to add. 8-)

 

[turnorburn]

Drew-

KJV- II Cor. 5:8- "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

I think that says the same as I said, with just one different word. So, what your point? The meaning of the Scripture was the same.

5:6 makes this plain my friend- "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."

So, how can anyone miss this plain understanding? If still alive, your spirit is still bonded to your body- 5:6, but when your phys. body dies, your spirit seperates and imediately (for a Child of God), goes to be with God in Heaven- v 8.

No, Paul is not equating that for his own experience, as he continually states- "we", for expressing the understanding all God's Children will experience this.

So you think Scriptures don't prove we go strait to one place or the other? What about the story of the richman and Lazarus, where the richman died and lifted up his eyes from Hell. (No loose wonderings around mentioned there), and Lazarus died, and Angels crried Lazarus into the bosom of Abraham. (Another direct route there with no spirit wondering around loose).

Yes, this was a Parable, but what does Christ say about His Teachings? That He would not have told us if it were not true.

Those "renderings" as you called them shouldn't have to "force" a logical understanding that comes across plain as day, from reading them.

And "soul sleep" is negated when look at the IICor. 5:6 and 8 references, showing if phys. alive, we are "absent" from the Lord, 8- "present "with" the Lord", not in Him. As the "soul sleep" belief, relies upon Gen. 2:7, believing the "spirit" of man is the actual "Breath" of God, even tho the original Hebrew word here means- "spoken".

God constantly thru His Word, "commanded"- (spoke) all things, including the physical world into existance. Ths when "God breathed the Breath of life into his nostrils"- God had spoken life into Adam.

Well, the "soul sleep" belief belongs to a spiritualized version of God's Word tho, not a literal interpretation of it. Thus, if want to believe that, you'll have to change a multitude of other Scriptures to back it up, which usaully messes up more of the literal understanding of God's Word.

And Satan was the first one, as the Serpent, to use God's own Word, in a twisted way with Eve, to convince her of a lie. Then he tried to do the same with Christ at His temptation.

Well, if you cannot trust Jesus Christ to be telling the Truth, then you must not be saved and reborn, for its clear you don't trust God's own speaking to His people or Christ's own words to people.

That means, you are not saved and reborn. Why? Jesus said, unless a man be born again, he shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven. How do you recieve Salvation? Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Thus, if you don't have the faith to believe what God and Christ declares literally in thier Word, you can't have the faith to be saved and reborn. Right? The Holy Spirit would never enlighten a person to understand they are lost, to accept Salvation, come to dwell within them and not show them to believe the rest of God's Word literally.

Unless, that person is the part of the group that falls away from the faith, made manifest they were never of us.

God Bless!

 

[lecoop]

If being absent from the body, as in death, does NOT mean our spirit man going to be with Jesus at death, please explain this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where is Jesus coming from? Of course, from heaven.
Who is He bringing with Him? Those which 'sleep' in Jesus. What is this saying? This is just another way of saying the "dead in Christ;" those that were made new creations in Christ Jesus, but their physical bodies died. If Jesus is bringing them with Him, then they MUST have gone to heaven, just as Paul was saying.

What happened to Jonah? Where did Jonah go? His body went into a fish. But did you notice this?

2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jonah was alive for a short while in the fishes belly: but not for long. It does not take long to pray! Where did Jonah go from the fishes belly?

2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah died in the fishes belly. His eternal spirit left his body, and his spirit went to hell, or the place of departed spirits. He was still crying out to God, from hell. Where are the bottoms of the mountains? Way down, deep in the earth. This fits perfectly with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. It is not a parable, but a true story of two people. If you will note, Jesus NEVER used people's names in parables. Here, He identified two people, but used only one name. This also fits with many people's experiences who have been taken to hell, to come back and write and tell others about it. It fits with the bible's discription of hell.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah's body was indeed three days and three nights in the fish, but his spirit went to hell. Jesus body did not go into the heart of the earth for three days and three nights: no, it was His spirit than did this. Jonah went to hell for three days, and it was a sign that Jesus would spend three days in hell. This is the way I read it.

Physical death, is no more than separation: the separation of the human spirit from the human body. The human spirit of its own, has not power to go either up or down. It is God the Father who decides. The human spirit is not allowed to linger, but will be sent either to heaven or to hell.

Spiritual death is separation also: it is separation of a human spirit from God. This is a very dangerous place for a human spirit to be! Why? Spiritual death plus (+) physical death, almost always means eternal death!

Eternal death is also separation: it is the separation of human spirits from God, for ever, even for ever and ever.

Coop

 

[guibox]

If being absent from the body, as in death, does NOT mean our spirit man going to be with Jesus at death, please explain this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where is Jesus coming from? Of course, from heaven.
Who is He bringing with Him? Those which 'sleep' in Jesus. What is this saying? This is just another way of saying the "dead in Christ;" those that were made new creations in Christ Jesus, but their physical bodies died. If Jesus is bringing them with Him, then they MUST have gone to heaven, just as Paul was saying.

The 'dead in Christ' are not 'dead' if they are 'alive' in heaven. To say 'dead in Christ' only talks about the body is to ignore the teaching of man being a wholistic being. When one dies, the rest of him does too. Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.

Job asked the question, 'If a man dies, shall he live again'? He answers it by saying, 'All the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change come'. He says, 'so man lieth down and awaketh not till the heavens be no more. Paul also says the same thing. Even as in Adam all die, so shall all in Christ be made alive, but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, aftward, they that are Christ's at His coming.

The 'dead in Christ' will be awakened (see Daniel 12:1-2; John 5:28-29) and the dead will no longer be dead. To say that the 'dead in Christ' are being brought back to inhabit their bodies is an oxymoron and is not supported by the scriptures anywhere.

What verse 14 is saying is that even as Jesus DIED and ROSE, so God the Father (who raised God the Son) will raise us up in the same manner.

What happened to Jonah? Where did Jonah go? His body went into a fish. But did you notice this?

2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jonah was alive for a short while in the fishes belly: but not for long. It does not take long to pray! Where did Jonah go from the fishes belly?
Jonah died in the fishes belly. His eternal spirit left his body, and his spirit went to hell, or the place of departed spirits. He was still crying out to God, from hell. Where are the bottoms of the mountains? Way down, deep in the earth. This fits perfectly with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. It is not a parable, but a true story of two people. If you will note, Jesus NEVER used people's names in parables. Here, He identified two people, but used only one name. This also fits with many people's experiences who have been taken to hell, to come back and write and tell others about it. It fits with the bible's discription of hell.

This is the most ludicrous thing in the world. Hell is not a physical place on our dimension. Jonah did not go anywhere but remained in the belly of the fish. He was using Sheol as a metaphor for his plight for it seemed like he was entombed in this belly and the fish would be his sepulchre. Ecclesiastes and Psalm 146 make it plain that there is no consciousness in Sheol and it is translated as 'grave' the majority of the times in the NT.

To read anymore into this passage is to base your theology on gratuitous assumptions that are not supported by the Bible.

Jonah's body was indeed three days and three nights in the fish, but his spirit went to hell. Jesus body did not go into the heart of the earth for three days and three nights: no, it was His spirit than did this. Jonah went to hell for three days, and it was a sign that Jesus would spend three days in hell....The human spirit is not allowed to linger, but will be sent either to heaven or to hell.

However, you are in a plight here. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 make it plain that the spirits of ALL men go BACK TO GOD. Not to hell. The spirit is 'breath' (ruach), the spark of life that is given to all men and even to beasts. When man dies his 'breath goeth forth, in that very day his thoughts perish' as David says.

The spirit is not the soul and doesn't go to heaven or hell but remains in the tomb where the voice of Christ awakens the whole man to eternal life. Read 1 Corinthians 15 very thoroughly.

 

[lecoop]

If being absent from the body, as in death, does NOT mean our spirit man going to be with Jesus at death, please explain this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where is Jesus coming from? Of course, from heaven.
Who is He bringing with Him? Those which 'sleep' in Jesus. What is this saying? This is just another way of saying the "dead in Christ;" those that were made new creations in Christ Jesus, but their physical bodies died. If Jesus is bringing them with Him, then they MUST have gone to heaven, just as Paul was saying.

The 'dead in Christ' are not 'dead' if they are 'alive' in heaven. To say 'dead in Christ' only talks about the body is to ignore the teaching of man being a wholistic being. When one dies, the rest of him does too. Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.

Job asked the question, 'If a man dies, shall he live again'? He answers it by saying, 'All the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change come'. He says, 'so man lieth down and awaketh not till the heavens be no more. Paul also says the same thing. Even as in Adam all die, so shall all in Christ be made alive, but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, aftward, they that are Christ's at His coming.

The 'dead in Christ' will be awakened (see Daniel 12:1-2; John 5:28-29) and the dead will no longer be dead. To say that the 'dead in Christ' are being brought back to inhabit their bodies is an oxymoron and is not supported by the scriptures anywhere.

What verse 14 is saying is that even as Jesus DIED and ROSE, so God the Father (who raised God the Son) will raise us up in the same manner.

What happened to Jonah? Where did Jonah go? His body went into a fish. But did you notice this?

2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jonah was alive for a short while in the fishes belly: but not for long. It does not take long to pray! Where did Jonah go from the fishes belly?
Jonah died in the fishes belly. His eternal spirit left his body, and his spirit went to hell, or the place of departed spirits. He was still crying out to God, from hell. Where are the bottoms of the mountains? Way down, deep in the earth. This fits perfectly with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. It is not a parable, but a true story of two people. If you will note, Jesus NEVER used people's names in parables. Here, He identified two people, but used only one name. This also fits with many people's experiences who have been taken to hell, to come back and write and tell others about it. It fits with the bible's discription of hell.

This is the most ludicrous thing in the world. Hell is not a physical place on our dimension. Jonah did not go anywhere but remained in the belly of the fish. He was using Sheol as a metaphor for his plight for it seemed like he was entombed in this belly and the fish would be his sepulchre. Ecclesiastes and Psalm 146 make it plain that there is no consciousness in Sheol and it is translated as 'grave' the majority of the times in the NT.

To read anymore into this passage is to base your theology on gratuitous assumptions that are not supported by the Bible.

Jonah's body was indeed three days and three nights in the fish, but his spirit went to hell. Jesus body did not go into the heart of the earth for three days and three nights: no, it was His spirit than did this. Jonah went to hell for three days, and it was a sign that Jesus would spend three days in hell....The human spirit is not allowed to linger, but will be sent either to heaven or to hell.

However, you are in a plight here. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 make it plain that the spirits of ALL men go BACK TO GOD. Not to hell. The spirit is 'breath' (ruach), the spark of life that is given to all men and even to beasts. When man dies his 'breath goeth forth, in that very day his thoughts perish' as David says.

The spirit is not the soul and doesn't go to heaven or hell but remains in the tomb where the voice of Christ awakens the whole man to eternal life. Read 1 Corinthians 15 very thoroughly.

I will give you this: when your body dies, you sure quit breathing! :

"Hell is not a physical place on our dimension." Are you sure?
"whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Where is this fire?
"it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Where is this "hell?"
"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." hell has gates.
"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" These folks have been there for about 2000 years. They have about 1000 years to go.
"it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" The fires of hell are permanant!
"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. Hell is down.
"Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell;" As I said, it is God that has the power to cast people into hell.
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." A rich man died, and was cast into hell, just as the previous verse said. Why don't you believe it?
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell..." This is a prophecy about Jesus. It was not His body in hell, it was His soul. If Jesus was there, how can you not believe in it?
"if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell" Again, hell is down, below the foundations of the mountains. It is a physical place, since this is a physical planet.
"the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: Is the sea a real, physical place? If so, then hell is a real place.

The spirit is not the soul and doesn't go to heaven or hell but remains in the tomb where the voice of Christ awakens the whole man to eternal life

I will agree, the spirit is not the soul, but the two are tied very closely together and will be together forever. Why would anyone think that one's soul will remain in the grave, when the soul is not something physical, and when Jesus clearly told you where the spirit and soul of the rich man went? Could He have made it any plainer? It says, "in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments." Why torments? Because of the fire, just as the verses above said exist in hell. Again, Jesus could not have made this any plainer.

So given a choice to believe what the NT says about the spirit of man, and one verse in Eccl, which will you believe? There are many chapters in Job that I would not believe in for anything. yet, they are in the word of God. What do you think of the book of Eccl. in general?

On the cross, Jesus said, "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." Sorry, but he was not speaking of any grave.
Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Nice post Coop!

If being absent from the body, as in death, does NOT mean our spirit man going to be with Jesus at death, please explain this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Where is Jesus coming from? Of course, from heaven.
Who is He bringing with Him? Those which 'sleep' in Jesus. What is this saying? This is just another way of saying the "dead in Christ;" those that were made new creations in Christ Jesus, but their physical bodies died. If Jesus is bringing them with Him, then they MUST have gone to heaven, just as Paul was saying.

The 'dead in Christ' are not 'dead' if they are 'alive' in heaven. To say 'dead in Christ' only talks about the body is to ignore the teaching of man being a wholistic being. When one dies, the rest of him does too. Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.

Job asked the question, 'If a man dies, shall he live again'? He answers it by saying, 'All the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change come'. He says, 'so man lieth down and awaketh not till the heavens be no more. Paul also says the same thing. Even as in Adam all die, so shall all in Christ be made alive, but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, aftward, they that are Christ's at His coming.

The 'dead in Christ' will be awakened (see Daniel 12:1-2; John 5:28-29) and the dead will no longer be dead. To say that the 'dead in Christ' are being brought back to inhabit their bodies is an oxymoron and is not supported by the scriptures anywhere.

What verse 14 is saying is that even as Jesus DIED and ROSE, so God the Father (who raised God the Son) will raise us up in the same manner.

What happened to Jonah? Where did Jonah go? His body went into a fish. But did you notice this?

2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jonah was alive for a short while in the fishes belly: but not for long. It does not take long to pray! Where did Jonah go from the fishes belly?
Jonah died in the fishes belly. His eternal spirit left his body, and his spirit went to hell, or the place of departed spirits. He was still crying out to God, from hell. Where are the bottoms of the mountains? Way down, deep in the earth. This fits perfectly with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. It is not a parable, but a true story of two people. If you will note, Jesus NEVER used people's names in parables. Here, He identified two people, but used only one name. This also fits with many people's experiences who have been taken to hell, to come back and write and tell others about it. It fits with the bible's discription of hell.

This is the most ludicrous thing in the world. Hell is not a physical place on our dimension. Jonah did not go anywhere but remained in the belly of the fish. He was using Sheol as a metaphor for his plight for it seemed like he was entombed in this belly and the fish would be his sepulchre. Ecclesiastes and Psalm 146 make it plain that there is no consciousness in Sheol and it is translated as 'grave' the majority of the times in the NT.

To read anymore into this passage is to base your theology on gratuitous assumptions that are not supported by the Bible.

Jonah's body was indeed three days and three nights in the fish, but his spirit went to hell. Jesus body did not go into the heart of the earth for three days and three nights: no, it was His spirit than did this. Jonah went to hell for three days, and it was a sign that Jesus would spend three days in hell....The human spirit is not allowed to linger, but will be sent either to heaven or to hell.

However, you are in a plight here. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 make it plain that the spirits of ALL men go BACK TO GOD. Not to hell. The spirit is 'breath' (ruach), the spark of life that is given to all men and even to beasts. When man dies his 'breath goeth forth, in that very day his thoughts perish' as David says.

The spirit is not the soul and doesn't go to heaven or hell but remains in the tomb where the voice of Christ awakens the whole man to eternal life. Read 1 Corinthians 15 very thoroughly.

I will give you this: when your body dies, you sure quit breathing! :

"Hell is not a physical place on our dimension." Are you sure?
"whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Where is this fire?
"it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Where is this "hell?"
"the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." hell has gates.
"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" These folks have been there for about 2000 years. They have about 1000 years to go.
"it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" The fires of hell are permanant!
"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. Hell is down.
"Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell;" As I said, it is God that has the power to cast people into hell.
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." A rich man died, and was cast into hell, just as the previous verse said. Why don't you believe it?
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell..." This is a prophecy about Jesus. It was not His body in hell, it was His soul. If Jesus was there, how can you not believe in it?
"if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell" Again, hell is down, below the foundations of the mountains. It is a physical place, since this is a physical planet.
"the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: Is the sea a real, physical place? If so, then hell is a real place.

The spirit is not the soul and doesn't go to heaven or hell but remains in the tomb where the voice of Christ awakens the whole man to eternal life

I will agree, the spirit is not the soul, but the two are tied very closely together and will be together forever. Why would anyone think that one's soul will remain in the grave, when the soul is not something physical, and when Jesus clearly told you where the spirit and soul of the rich man went? Could He have made it any plainer? It says, "in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments." Why torments? Because of the fire, just as the verses above said exist in hell. Again, Jesus could not have made this any plainer.

So given a choice to believe what the NT says about the spirit of man, and one verse in Eccl, which will you believe? There are many chapters in Job that I would not believe in for anything. yet, they are in the word of God. What do you think of the book of Eccl. in general?

On the cross, Jesus said, "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise." Sorry, but he was not speaking of any grave.
Coop