The English Language and the Bible

[MSchultz]

As you must surely know, no language can be translated precisely.
We translate thoughts, not words.

Do Germans HANG their clothes?
As if they committed some crime?

Or do they HANG their clothes
As if to place them on a cord with clothespins?

Greek is the same. We translate the concept, the thought,
not each word exactly.

Of course, however my point was merely to express that some thoughts cannot be translated in the same way; alternative methods of writing are used in translation.

 

[GodsGrace]

No sports' jacket with shirt and tie for me. Only shorts, T-shirts, bare feet in sandals. In winter, I wear shorts, shirt and sports shoes with socks. Occasionally if it's really cold, I'll wear long trousers with an open-neck short sleeve shirt.

Oh the delights of living in the sub-tropics.

Oz

Sing it Oz...

We can take it!!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Dltd

 

[GodsGrace]

La estoy leyendo en español ahora mismo, jaja. Es... muy interesante, ya que compré la versión Reina Valera y el lenguaje es bastante viejo. ¡Pero ya era hora de que comenzara a leer en castellano antiguo!

I may have to go back to the English version because good old San Pablo keeps on putting me to sleep. I've actually ended up liking him a lot more than I thought I would, so the problem might be the antiquated Spanish. But at least I'll soon no longer have an excuse not to read Don Quijote.

Hi Silmarien,
Some reading along may think your 2nd paragraph is a translation of the first, but it's not.
In fact, I believe the Spanish I learned was Castellano. With the gl sound instead of the ll sound.
What is jaja??
And why are you reading an antique version? No es mas dificil?

Quando leggo la bibbia in Italiano, non mi ricordo niente!
Meglio restare con l'Inglese...

Ciao

 

[OzSpen]

Sing it Oz...

We can take it!!!!

Wondering,

I'll need to use a yodel with it. That may not go down too well for some on CFnet.

I should stick with listening to Australia's king of country music, the late Slim Dusty, and 'Trumby'.

Imagine knowing what Slim was singing about if you didn't know the context and meaning of words like 'ringer'.

Here goes with an attempt at a poem about my Sunday dress to be set to music (country music, of course):

This old bloke is fed up with shirt and ties up to the neck.
Put on the shorts, bare feet and sandals. What the heck!
He's weary of sitting in the pew with stiff upper lips;
It's time to rattle the cages of the fundy bunch with hips

Chorus:
He's a hunk of a bloke who is open to Spirit change
But he's rocking the boat of tradition; seems so strange.
Yodel-Ay-Ee-Oooo Yodel-Ay-Ee-Dooo Yodel-Ay-Ee-Oooo

Covered by shorts and not trousers, open-necked shirt
That paints a picture of being at peace and casual and not dirt.
But he does get stuck in the winter chill wearing jeans for this hunk;
He'll even stoop to a long sleeve shirt when the ice is in a chunk.

Repeat chorus​

Blessings to all from this Aussie fella who speaks his own English brogue like the Cunnamulla Fella,

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

Hey, the stuff was written in the language of that day and time in which it was written...
And English is the worst receptor language of all the donor languages needing to be translated. All the other languages have parts of speech and expressions that English just doesn't own.

Now in America, the land of immigrants, there is a heavy resistance to accommodating all of the many foreign languages. Mostly due to the impossibility of the task and the desire not to lose our cultural identity in the fashion GB has had happen. (which is why Brexit has won)

People wish for clarity,
I seek puzzle answers
Others look for loopholes
others still look for twisting.
People have a lot of reasons to go back to the original language...but unless they are willing to do basic hermeneutics of including all of the sciences (which could have happened in the language that they normally read) and the arts they still won't come to the truth. I happen to like looking at the original languages for the pithy way it was written...also to get around some of the "Christian Political Correctness" and to see the beauty of the manner in which the Bible was written in.
Today we have youtube videos and podcasts and livestream and dvd's by the truckload. Its easy to understand when its all in video for all of the unspoken means of speech we have. Back in the day...they didn't have all of this but the huge amount of information with such a tiny "bandwidth" that they used (pen and ink) versus today's abilities...its amazing. Then there are the euphemisms that they used. Such as Baal, Ashteroth, and Molech. These three idols were used as euphemisms for all of the idols and false gods that were worshiped. none of them except for the first three actually had those names. But the Bible writers just didn't care. They used these three names over and over for the variety of the false gods that came along...insinuating that this is nothing new...just a repackaged and reformulated means of sex, violence, or self belief. Except for one religion...Mazdaism. This one religion never gets actually mentioned. But their king and promoter does...600 years before he actually shows up. Daniel hands him the greeting and its all over. Oddly enough that this one unbelieving heathen king ever gets a mention or a message from God. (all others are ignored) But in the end this one religion had an effect upon ALL religions of the world...even to this day its the difference between Sunni and the Other Muslims, the various forms of Buddhism, the different sects of Hinduism, and the various sects of Judaism. It also seems to have some syncretic factions in Christianity as well. (but that is a story for another day)

All this to say...
Eisogesis is alive and well in the 21st century as it has been for the millennia preceding it. And even though everyone claims that they wish for the truth the end result is often not. People believe what they wish to no matter what.

 

[Silmarien]

Hi Silmarien,
Some reading along may think your 2nd paragraph is a translation of the first, but it's not.
In fact, I believe the Spanish I learned was Castellano. With the gl sound instead of the ll sound.
What is jaja??
And why are you reading an antique version? No es mas dificil?

Quando leggo la bibbia in Italiano, non mi ricordo niente!
Meglio restare con l'Inglese...

Ciao

Se provasse di leggerla in italiano, non capirei niente! (I do need to work on my Italian. My level is barely good enough for Pinocchio! Going there this fall and I decided to skip the hostels this time and stay at a convent in Venice. Communication may prove interesting.)

Jaja is just "haha," Spanish spelling. I don't think anyone really does GL instead of LL anymore... there are some areas in Spain where it's supposed to exist, but I've never run across it. I swear, people (myself included) pronounce LL differently from one sentence to the next.

I picked the most recent version of the Reina Valera, so it's supposed to be an updated version of the traditional text. Something like the KJV instead of Bibles that shift entirely over to modern language. As far as I can tell, it's the most widely used version in Spanish, and I like the authenticity that comes with a bit of old grammar and vocabulary. It's a bit trickier, yeah, but I needed to take the dive into older Spanish anyway.

 

[GodsGrace]

Se provasse di leggerla in italiano, non capirei niente! (I do need to work on my Italian. My level is barely good enough for Pinocchio! Going there this fall and I decided to skip the hostels this time and stay at a convent in Venice. Communication may prove interesting.)

Jaja is just "haha," Spanish spelling. I don't think anyone really does GL instead of LL anymore... there are some areas in Spain where it's supposed to exist, but I've never run across it. I swear, people (myself included) pronounce LL differently from one sentence to the next.

I picked the most recent version of the Reina Valera, so it's supposed to be an updated version of the traditional text. Something like the KJV instead of Bibles that shift entirely over to modern language. As far as I can tell, it's the most widely used version in Spanish, and I like the authenticity that comes with a bit of old grammar and vocabulary. It's a bit trickier, yeah, but I needed to take the dive into older Spanish anyway.

Se provassi a leggerla in Italiano...

You could pm me in Italian if it would help you.
A convent is a great place to stay.
They don't cost a lot, the grounds are usually very well kept,
And the people that run it are nice.
Great idea.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

I'll need to use a yodel with it. That may not go down too well for some on CFnet.

I should stick with listening to Australia's king of country music, the late Slim Dusty, and 'Trumby'.

Imagine knowing what Slim was singing about if you didn't know the context and meaning of words like 'ringer'.

Here goes with an attempt at a poem about my Sunday dress to be set to music (country music, of course):

This old bloke is fed up with shirt and ties up to the neck.
Put on the shorts, bare feet and sandals. What the heck!
He's weary of sitting in the pew with stiff upper lips;
It's time to rattle the cages of the fundy bunch with hips

Chorus:
He's a hunk of a bloke who is open to Spirit change
But he's rocking the boat of tradition; seems so strange.
Yodel-Ay-Ee-Oooo Yodel-Ay-Ee-Dooo Yodel-Ay-Ee-Oooo

Covered by shorts and not trousers, open-necked shirt
That paints a picture of being at peace and casual and not dirt.
But he does get stuck in the winter chill wearing jeans for this hunk;
He'll even stoop to a long sleeve shirt when the ice is in a chunk.

Repeat chorus​

Blessings to all from this Aussie fella who speaks his own English brogue like the Cunnamulla Fella,

Oz

Did you write this?

 

[OzSpen]

Did you write this?

Wondering,

It was straight from my keyboard around 11pm, Saturday, 1 April as I was ready for bed (how appropriate on April Fool's Day)!

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

It was straight from my keyboard around 11pm, Saturday, 1 April as I was ready for bed (how appropriate on April Fool's Day)!

Oz

It's great!
I'm going to print it out and save it.

Here's one from me:

I was feeling sad and lonely
when God came to look for me
I was happy beyond measure
As I fell upon my knees

He told me secrets, taught me truths
that were meant for my belief
And as I lived my life in Him
He saved me from much grief.
April 1, 2017

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey, the stuff was written in the language of that day and time in which it was written...
And English is the worst receptor language of all the donor languages needing to be translated. All the other languages have parts of speech and expressions that English just doesn't own.

Now in America, the land of immigrants, there is a heavy resistance to accommodating all of the many foreign languages. Mostly due to the impossibility of the task and the desire not to lose our cultural identity in the fashion GB has had happen. (which is why Brexit has won)

People wish for clarity,
I seek puzzle answers
Others look for loopholes
others still look for twisting.
People have a lot of reasons to go back to the original language...but unless they are willing to do basic hermeneutics of including all of the sciences (which could have happened in the language that they normally read) and the arts they still won't come to the truth. I happen to like looking at the original languages for the pithy way it was written...also to get around some of the "Christian Political Correctness" and to see the beauty of the manner in which the Bible was written in.
Today we have youtube videos and podcasts and livestream and dvd's by the truckload. Its easy to understand when its all in video for all of the unspoken means of speech we have. Back in the day...they didn't have all of this but the huge amount of information with such a tiny "bandwidth" that they used (pen and ink) versus today's abilities...its amazing. Then there are the euphemisms that they used. Such as Baal, Ashteroth, and Molech. These three idols were used as euphemisms for all of the idols and false gods that were worshiped. none of them except for the first three actually had those names. But the Bible writers just didn't care. They used these three names over and over for the variety of the false gods that came along...insinuating that this is nothing new...just a repackaged and reformulated means of sex, violence, or self belief. Except for one religion...Mazdaism. This one religion never gets actually mentioned. But their king and promoter does...600 years before he actually shows up. Daniel hands him the greeting and its all over. Oddly enough that this one unbelieving heathen king ever gets a mention or a message from God. (all others are ignored) But in the end this one religion had an effect upon ALL religions of the world...even to this day its the difference between Sunni and the Other Muslims, the various forms of Buddhism, the different sects of Hinduism, and the various sects of Judaism. It also seems to have some syncretic factions in Christianity as well. (but that is a story for another day)

All this to say...
Eisogesis is alive and well in the 21st century as it has been for the millennia preceding it. And even though everyone claims that they wish for the truth the end result is often not. People believe what they wish to no matter what.

 

[OzSpen]

Grammatical constructs.
You want I should speak correct English?

I worked as an executive secretary. Do you know what that means? I know an office like you know theology.

No correct grammar = no executive secy.

So I know what you're speaking about.

BUT

I still maintain that IT IS NOT NECESSARY to know Greek to know that salvation is not eternal unless WE WISH it to be.

OSAS does NOT exist in the N.T.

That's what I'm saying...

Wondering,

Of course it is not necessary for Christians to know Greek. But I'm sure glad translators of the NT knew their Greek grammar in detail. I have been blessed beyond measure to know the grammar and nuances of Greek.

For you to say, 'OSAS does NOT exist in the N.T.', you have to be able to interpret Scripture. Hermeneutics is sometimes a daunting task. I happen to agree with you with this theology. However, Perseverance of the Saints is taught in Scripture.

Jesus spoke of the signs of the end of the age:

9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come (Matt 24:9-14 NLT).​

Perseverance to the end is a sign of true Christian belief and practice and not a person who once said, 'I asked Jesus into my heart', and then leaves Jesus out of the mainstream of his/her life.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It's great!
I'm going to print it out and save it.

Here's one from me:

I was feeling sad and lonely
when God came to look for me
I was happy beyond measure
As if fell upon my knees

He told me secrets, taught me truths
that were meant for my belief
And as I lived my life in Him
He saved me from much grief.
April 1, 2017

Wondering,

That's beautiful and so true. Especially for me in my personal situation.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

Of course it is not necessary for Christians to know Greek. But I'm sure glad translators of the NT knew their Greek grammar in detail. I have been blessed beyond measure to know the grammar and nuances of Greek.

For you to say, 'OSAS does NOT exist in the N.T.', you have to be able to interpret Scripture. Hermeneutics is sometimes a daunting task. I happen to agree with you with this theology. However, Perseverance of the Saints is taught in Scripture.

Jesus spoke of the signs of the end of the age:

9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come (Matt 24:9-14 NLT).​

Perseverance to the end is a sign of true Christian belief and practice and not a person who once said, 'I asked Jesus into my heart', and then leaves Jesus out of the mainstream of his/her life.

Oz

Oz,
I'd love to speak to you about this, but it's late here and I'm too tired.
Will be leaving really soon...
Maybe on Monday...

 

[Papa Zoom]

Wondering,

Of course it is not necessary for Christians to know Greek. But I'm sure glad translators of the NT knew their Greek grammar in detail. I have been blessed beyond measure to know the grammar and nuances of Greek.

For you to say, 'OSAS does NOT exist in the N.T.', you have to be able to interpret Scripture. Hermeneutics is sometimes a daunting task. I happen to agree with you with this theology. However, Perseverance of the Saints is taught in Scripture.

Jesus spoke of the signs of the end of the age:

9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come (Matt 24:9-14 NLT).​

Perseverance to the end is a sign of true Christian belief and practice and not a person who once said, 'I asked Jesus into my heart', and then leaves Jesus out of the mainstream of his/her life.

Oz

Can we then not say that those who are truly saved will endure to the end?