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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
THE FIRST LIE
- Thread starter enlightened
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enlightened
Member
Where is it written that Satan (the devil) lied before the Garden? For if it is not written, then it is an assumption only.
So you think Eve was lying? what for? Could it be that it was what she was told was the truth, which, if she believed it, would leave her deceived; If so, then 'Don't touch' would be the very first lie.
Certainy the serpent's question was tricky, but only because it was asked as a true/false question, when it could never be answered so simply, since the Commandment was the command to eat from all, except one; meaning it was a Law with one exception; meaning it was true most of the time, but not all the time (the excepted tree); meaning the serpent's question was true in one sence, but false in another. Certainy it was true that they could not eat from all the trees, since the was the one excepted; however, it was not true that all the trees were excepted.
But, since it was only a question, it had no power to convince Eve of a lie, since it made no assertion that a lie was the truth! Therefore, even though the question was 'tricky', it certainly is not subtle.
Keep on with your studies. Every walk is in a different spot. There is SOOOOOOOO much more going on here then the first Lie.
If you are truly interested Isa 14 and Eze 28 talk of Satan and His fall and His 5 "I wills"
Christ's own words...
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. - KJV
prince:
G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
The NKJV is very good here...
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Paul agrees.
Already been quoted...
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Father of lies, we might say inventor in todays English.
Sure it did, it contained the following qualifier that made the first lie seem truth...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Her eyes would be opened and she could determine right and wrong. Whe would no longer have to trust God for this information.
jasoncran
Member
that doesn't mean he actually has control but allowed. see job for that.
God didn't raise up pharaoh? he didn't say in the bible the he raised kings and nations? satan is allowed to what god allows.if satan had that power then isreal was never ever God's in the first place.
jasoncran
Member
adam clarke notes, funny that gospel of truth liberates men.satan had control except isreal in this view. since god only dealt with isreal but ultimate God allowed that. satan was never really all that.
neither is today.
Daniel 2
so then who is really ruling? God or satan?
God doesn't have to ask permission with satan to do what he does. satan is the one who must be allowed to deceive.
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enlightened
Member
When the serpent told Eve she would not die, he was truthful as far that death being a physical death, since she did not die when she ate; however, the death promised by the Law (the Commandment) was obviously a spiritual death since Eve did not die an immediate physical death. Therefore, the serpent's comment was true in one sense, but false in another. Either way though, it cannot be the first lie, since Eve spoke untruth (don't touch), but is not the first liar; therefore, she is merely regurgitating a lie she was told and believed, which lie had to be told by the devil (JN8:44)
enlightened
Member
In the Beginning there was only one Truth, the Commandment: and scripture supports no other truths.; therefore, the first lie had to be a perversion of that first TRUTH. Now, Eve was deceived, even by the subtlety of the serpent: and to be deceived is to believe a lie to be the truth; therefore, the deception of Eve involved gettiing her to believe that a lie was the truth. The Commandment was to Eat from All the trees of the Garden, except for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (one of the two trees in the center of the Garden); therefore, when Eve said that GOD said they could not TOUCH the fruit from the 'forbidden' tree either, she spoke untruth. But, since the devil is the father of the lie (JN8:44), then Eve's speaking the untruth - Don't touch- cannot be the first time it was spoken, rather, it had to be spoken to her first, and she believed it to be the truth, which does not make her a liar, but one deceived, since a liar must both know the truth, and willingly change it into a lie.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
That's nitpicking. Spiritual death is much more serious than physical death.
It is dangerous to form doctrine around such presumption. As I stated earlier, there is no reason to believe that God didn't tell them to not touch that fruit at some point and it is implied in the command to not eat it.
The devil is the father of lies, and when he lies he speaks his native language.
Why is it that every biblical person is depicted as a white man, even when you see God himself (even though I can’t see why anyone would even try to see or represent him as a man) he’s depicted as white?
What would cause anyone to try and deceive people like this?
Why is it that every biblical person is depicted as a white man, even when you see God himself (even though I can’t see why anyone would even try to see or represent him as a man) he’s depicted as white?
What would cause anyone to try and deceive people like this?
enlightened
Member
So it is dangerous to reason doctrine based upon only that which GOD said was true? And exactly where is my presumption, or what is it that i have said that is not supported by scripture? There is every reason to accept that there was only One Truth in the Beginning because it is the only spoken: and to think that GOD might have said somehting else is indeed a dangerous assumption and cannot be supported or justified by scripture, since you would be believing something GOD never said was true.
By your belief, GOD told Adam one commandment, but told Eve somehting else. Where does that make sense? You could very well say that there were more than the 10 Commandments, and they only applied to Israel but not the rest of the world, but they were never recorded. When, then, can one find any proveable doctrine, given the facts are incomplete? Aren't you saying that the WORD of GOD is not the whole truth, since there might be more HE never said and had recorded? What then can you stand on firmly, for your interpretations of truth?
If we put our faith in only what GOD spoke, how then can we error in our interpretations, given the Word is perfect and holy? Did not the Preacher say that after seeking out all the was written of the TRUTH by men, he found out and admonishes us that the books of men are endless, studying them just wearies out the flesh, and the best a man can do is to Fear GOD and keep His Commandments (believe His Word)? (Eccl 12:10-14)
Certainy, 'my' doctrine is simple, because the TRUTH is simple (IICOR11:3), else only the wise would understand. My faith is in GOD's WORD, and my doctrine is derived soley by it. If you find an assumption, let me know, or show me how it is so.
enlightened
Member
There is nothing subtle about the false comment, 'you will not surely die', given that it is the exact opposite of the truth. Maybe you don't understand the definition of 'subtle' as it applies to the modus opperandi of the serpent in how he deceived Eve in the first place. Unfortunatley, most of what you say is speculation (no disrespect intended). Reread my posts and consider what i hold as fact, and determine if there is error in them compared to the Word of GOD.
I agree with your sentiments. There is no subtlety in "you will not surely die". Please forgive my inexact response regarding the subtlety. Fot to me the Truth being challenged by the subtlety of the lie is not even whether we will die or not, although it appears that way on the surface. The Truth being challenged is the trustworthiness of God's Character.
Deborah13
Member
I'm just asking because I know He told Adam before He made Eve....but when did He tell Eve. If He didn't then she got her info from Adam. And if Adam had not eaten would there have been a fall?
Genesis 27
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
enlightened
Member
If GOD told Eve the Commandment, then, since it is impossible to deceive someone who knows the truth (the basis for the WORD of GOD), Eve could have never been deceived. But, was not Adam given both the Garden and the Commandment, which means he was the first human Pastor and Eve his flock? It was his responsiblity to maintain the Garden and the Commandment; therefore, it was his responsibilty to tell Eve the Commandment (as i see it).
as i believe, the only reason Adam ate is because Eve ate but did not die. Was he not beside her when she picked and ate, yet made no attempt to stop her (Gen 3:6)?