Bible Study The Gospel of John, Greek discussion

[Gregg]

How Is Jesus both the Son of God, and a descendant of David?

 

[Chopper]

How Is Jesus both the Son of God, and a descendant of David?

That's what some of them come up with. When I explain the line from Abraham to David was necessary for the husband of the virgin Mary, Joseph to be in it, therefore prophesy was fulfilled. Boy, it's been a long, long time since I boned up on the ancestry of the Son of God....Please....refresh my understanding.

 

[Gregg]

Perhaps Jesus is a descendant of David through both Joseph and Mary. I can see how He was physically through Mary, but with David it is difficult to discern his connection to Jesus as Mary was a virgin.

 

[TimothyW]

A wonderful Verse, I have always loved it. Although, witnessing to the JW's and LDS's that verse is a battle ground in that they believe Jesus was not God, but a created being through some kind of unique birth.

I just believe what the Bible says...

 

[TimothyW]

How Is Jesus both the Son of God, and a descendant of David?

And how can He be both Son of God and Son of Man?
And how can someone who is not Both Son of God and Son of Man be a mediator between God and Man?

 

[Chopper]

Perhaps Jesus is a descendant of David through both Joseph and Mary. I can see how He was physically through Mary, but with David it is difficult to discern his connection to Jesus as Mary was a virgin.

Gregg, you really got me thinking now. A long time ago, I read the book "The Chemistry Of The Blood" by Dr. M.R. DeHaan. If you've never read it I would suggest you buy the paperback copy. $10.00. I was fascinated by his explanation of the spiritual and physical elements in Jesus' birth.

From what I remember, the ancestral line of Jesus from Abraham through David through Joseph, God preserved Israel through all their rebellion with a remnant of obedient followers of YHWH. That line would be the line in which Jesus would come from, a chosen people. Mary, a virgin, simply was the betrothed to Joseph who was a chosen vessel, a follower of YHWH and part of that remnant. In order that Jesus would not have any human blood in Him, God chose this absolutely unique miracle of the Holy Spirit implanting God's blood into the fetus called Jesus. Therefore Jesus had a human body and perfect blood. Dr. DeHaan explained medically how this was possible.

Whenever confronting a JW or LDS, I talk about the Blood! Nothing else! They believe that their sins are forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus. When asked if human blood would forgive sins, they say no. I then ask them, if Jesus was not God (which is what they believe) then He must have been human. How then are your sins forgiven? Usually, that stops our conversation.

 

[Chopper]

And how can He be both Son of God and Son of Man?
And how can someone who is not Both Son of God and Son of Man be a mediator between God and Man?

Oh boy, leave it to a biker to throw out a hard question at the biker bar.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper.

 

[Gregg]

I've read discussions similar to "The Chemistry Of The Blood." And this is perhaps why Jesus is called the Last Adam by Paul (1 Cor 15:45); in that He did not share the blood of Adam. John states it in another way, "the Word became flesh" (Jn 1:14).

(Lev 17:11) 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

I thank God who became flesh and dwelt among us, who showed us the way to His Father, whose blood made Atonement for us to Him.

 

[Chopper]

I've read discussions similar to "The Chemistry Of The Blood." And this is perhaps why Jesus is called the Last Adam by Paul (1 Cor 15:45); in that He did not share the blood of Adam. John states it in another way, "the Word became flesh" (Jn 1:14).

(Lev 17:11) 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

I thank God who became flesh and dwelt among us, who showed us the way to His Father, whose blood made Atonement for us to Him.

Very good Gregg, I like your reply! Oh how we can praise our God who made a way for our Salvation. It's no wonder that the angels in heaven cal Him Holy, Holy, Holy. Some day you and I will join in on that chorus with praises to our wonderful Creator.

I praise God for you! It is good for two Brothers to admire and worship Him Who holds us in the palm of His Hand.

 

[TimothyW]

John 1:15
Ἰωάνης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων Οὗτος ἦν ὃν εἶπον Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν, ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν.
(John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) ESV
I like the word κέκραγεν, I just like how it sounds. ke-krag-en, it sounds like what it is, a crow calling out. kaw kaw. What did we go out into the wilderness to see? A fancy man dressed in frilly clothing? Or a prophet who would harshly call out the truth?

 

[Chopper]

John 1:15
Ἰωάνης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων Οὗτος ἦν ὃν εἶπον Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν, ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν.
(John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) ESV
I like the word κέκραγεν, I just like how it sounds. ke-krag-en, it sounds like what it is, a crow calling out. kaw kaw. What did we go out into the wilderness to see? A fancy man dressed in frilly clothing? Or a prophet who would harshly call out the truth?

 

[AirDancer]

I second that

 

[TimothyW]

John 1:16 & 17
ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος·
ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
ESV

I thought these two verses shouldn't be separated. We received grace upon grace, first we were given the "grace" of the law, how could we we know what we are supposed to do without the law to tell us? And then we were given the grace of Jesus Christ, forgiveness of our sins when we fall. I love this, we have received grace upon grace. God is good to us.

 

[Chopper]

John 1:16 & 17
ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος·
ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
ESV

I thought these two verses shouldn't be separated. We received grace upon grace, first we were given the "grace" of the law, how could we we know what we are supposed to do without the law to tell us? And then we were given the grace of Jesus Christ, forgiveness of our sins when we fall. I love this, we have received grace upon grace. God is good to us.

You know? For a biker dude, you're quite smart! Hey, thanks for this post, I love how you put those two verses together. God is way to generous with grace, more than we deserve, hey, that's what grace is all about!!

 

[TimothyW]

You know? For a biker dude, you're quite smart!

Thanks, I think that there has been a shift in the last 10-20 years in the type of people who ride Harleys. It's not just tattooed bar brawlers in biker gangs anymore. I think those guys are a minority segment of Harley Riders now.

http://mynorthwest.com/646/652570/This-is-what-a-midlife-crisis-sounds-like

A Harley Sportster is just a really cool motorcycle.

I don't even HAVE a tattoo.

 

[TimothyW]

Tim W
Harley Rider
Christian
Husband, Father
Guitar Dude on the Worship Team at Church
Water Resources Specialist
Tattoo Free since 1964

 

[Chopper]

Thanks, I think that there has been a shift in the last 10-20 years in the type of people who ride Harleys. It's not just tattooed bar brawlers in biker gangs anymore. I think those guys are a minority segment of Harley Riders now.

http://mynorthwest.com/646/652570/This-is-what-a-midlife-crisis-sounds-like

A Harley Sportster is just a really cool motorcycle.

I don't even HAVE a tattoo.

Ha, Ha, I love it! You are right....I lot of people who knew I was a Baptist pastor would say, "You ride a big Harley?" YEP!!

 

[TimothyW]

There are two versions of John 1:18
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. (Nestle, Westcott and Hort)
God no-one has-seen ever, unique God the (one) who (is) in the bosom (of) the Father, he has-brought-out. (Timmy's rough translation)
or
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρός, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. (Byzantine manuscripts, etc)
God no-one has-seen ever, the unique son the (one) who (is) in the bosom (of) the father, he has-brought-out. (Timmy's rough translation)

ESV has "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known." which translates from the first one.
KJV has "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." which translates from the second one.

There is more text support for the second version, but only because there are more Byzantine manuscripts than non Byzantine manuscripts. The first version comes from some earlier manuscripts. It seems like a more difficult reading, which may be why Westcott and Hort went with that version. (On the theory that nobody would change a smooth reading to a more difficult reading, but a scribe may have "fixed" a difficult reading to make make it "better")

I don't know, does anyone here have information or opinions about Θεὸς vs υἱός in John 1:18?

 

[Gregg]

When I study using Greek, I look at two texts - the Nestle-Aland GNT 3rd addition, and the Westcott-Hort GNT. I read that they are about 60 percent the same, with the remaining 40 percent an added word or a change person or tense in one specific word. Sometimes the differences affect doctrine or revelation, but for the most part the differences are local.

I try to consider context, noun-verb agreement, and a verse's relation to texts from other books of the Bible; but it comes down to asking God what is the truth, asking the Lord to grant hearing and discernment.

Where else in Scripture does the text mention "begotten God"? It is not found elsewhere in either NA or WH or BYZ.

However, as with all of the themes in the 1st chapter of John, the theme of begotten Son is developed elsewhere in the Gospel - Jn 3:16, 18; see 1 Jn 4:9. I lean towards "begotten Son."

The translations that I read most often are the NASB Updated Version, and the LITV.