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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?
- Thread starter YosefHayim
- Start date
B
Brother Mike
Guest
In prison we saw God do just some amazing things. Healing, chopping down prison sentences, divine protection. There were a few things that just stuck out to me though, I believe things that were important to a Christian life in Christ Jesus.
My elder brother in Christ, Tony was amazing as nothing phased him. He never was over happy but always smiling and never once seen him get upset or discouraged. Despite some of the amazing things I saw God do through this brother, his character and personality is what grabbed my attention the most.
Always talking about faith, I asked him about what he was putting his faith on next. He looked at me and said, "Faith on next? Mike, look at me..........(Long pause) It's what I am putting my faith on right now is what counts, and waking up every morning determined to start fresh new to live every single day as a saved day.There are enough things today Mike to put your faith on."
Here was my leader and mentor telling me about today??? I asked him about this and he told me to just seek the Lord on it Mike. I was disappointed. Putting your faith in right now and nothing even going on. I just figured he was strange that way.
It was about a week reading my bible again and this verse of scripture just like slapped me in the face.
Mat_6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
I finally understood what he was constantly focused on. Living every second in faith to live saved.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
I have found not to ignore people, billboards, TV commercials that have the same message coming though and confirmation after confirmation that I need to look into something. God seems to use about everything and we just have to stay focused hour by hour and be alert as not to miss it.
Believing for a TV for my son when we moved to Branson dirt broke, I was always keeping God in mind, living saved and the Holy Spirit told me to go to Walmart. Go figure, go to Walmart..... It was just a knowing, a faint direction inside me to go. So, I went........... Got there and met some folks I knew from a hotel we use to live in. They showed me all this wonderful junk they picked up dirt cheap at these places where people donate stuff and they sell it back dirt cheap.
Ummm. OK, I got to see Junk and at least I went to Walmart just in case it was the Lord. I also got a list of places and directions so I could go get my junk for cheap.
Back home the Lord spoke again. He said, "I want you to take the wife Saturday to these places."
That is all God said........... God must be testing me, or my patience but I told the wife and she Got excited. Her husband (Me) was taking her to rummage sales... yea!!!! oh brother..........sigh.......
Saturday came and my wife was ready to go, I was not so ready but had to keep my word. Right before we were about to leave I get this check in my spirit not to go yet. I told the wife we just have to wait, and wait, and wait... She was not happy, but that was her issue, I told her we leave, when I get the green light.
bout 2 hours later, I get this go, go, go, go!!! in my spirit, so we head to the first place on the list. Inside, I got me a nice pair of dress shoes for only 5.00. I still have them, they are great. The wife got a few things and most of it was just junk anyway. So, I go outside to wait on the wife to finish up and a truck pulls up with a TV in the back. The guy drags it out to give to the rummage people and I asked him about it. He told me the TV was busted and thought they could fix it up and sell it. He told me it turns on, but the picture just gets small and goes black.
Just then the Lord said............."Ask the clerk about that TV that just came in."
Ummm, so I went inside, and told the Lady some guy just set a TV outside that was broke and asked her how much she wanted for it. She told me if I take it, and she don't have to put it into inventory, then I could have it free. So I loaded up the Broken TV and off we went.
Mind you this whole time my wife had been saving money and we had been believing God for a TV for my son. I had yet put two and two together as the TV was broken as I was told. It was a big color TV, very nice, but not working.
We got home and my son took the TV just to check it out and wouldn't you know. It worked perfectly, nice picture and everything. That TV lasted us 5 years with no issues at all.
This is one reason that every second we should be minded on the Lord and expecting. Had I not heard or been quite enough to hear that faint "Go to Walmart" we would have never ended up at that rummage place and still would have been waiting for a long time on that TV.
Edward, I am convinced that God's people ask for things and God is faithful to answers but they just won't get quite enough and take the time in the Word and time with God to get direction. Worse, some die early because they ignored that check in their spirit about going someplace or doing something. Most of all prayers God answers is by God telling us where to go, who to meet and where to be. Sadly people pray, not expecting and miss blessing, after blessing.
Well, if you feel in your heart you need to check something, best to get checking on it........... Good things are coming even if it means something temporary your flesh may not like, but less flesh in the way, more promotion and cools stuff. Right?
Mike.
The same One who fulfilled it.
The same One who changed it.
The Lord God, The Holy One of Israel.
JLB
Last edited by a moderator:
Ryan
Member
Matthew 5:18 explains when the smallest jot and tittle will pass away. I poked my head outside, and in my earth, it hasn't passed away yet.
So according to someone who has said Jesus has changed the Torah, it would be in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2; Deuteronomy 12:32, and would have to be declared a false prophet based on Deuteronomy 13. How does it make you feel that according to God's Word, you are a false teacher? I don't think you intentionally are, but that has been taught for centuries so surely it must be right? Right? Why do you think Jesus made declared so crystal clearly that he has not changed anything, or abolished it? He could never declare himself the Jewish Messiah if he came and taught contrary to God's Word. That would have been blasphemous.
stovebolts
Member
Hi JLB,
I do hope that you'll be kinder to me in your response than you have others.
That being said, Jesus stated many things as recorded in Matthew's account. This really is very simple
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
This is the beginning of Jesus teaching on the correct interpretation of Torah. In this sense, abolish does not entirely mean to get rid of. Rather, abolish in this sense means to distort something so badly from it's original intent, that it is no longer recognizable. By fulfilling the scriptures, Jesus is simply saying that he is correctly identifying the original intent of the passages. I know, I know.. This ins't mainstream so if you disagree, that's fine. I'm not demanding that you accept it.
That being said, Jesus says many times in his dissertation that we call the sermon on the mount (Mt. 5 through 7), "You have heard it said". Well then, who would they have heard it from? Well... the teachers of the Law of course. And who were the main teachers? None other than those from the school of thought from Hillel and Shammai. And what was their purpose? Simple... To correctly interpret the law. Why you may ask? Because a correct interpretation would bring about the right kind of living. So you see, Torah was being taught but the question was, "Who had the correct interpretation". If you interpretation was so far off from the commandments original intent, you were said to have abolished that commandment.
What they failed to realize is that the law was never intended to bring about salvation. Rather, as scriptures state the Law came as a school teacher to show what sin is. Moreso than that, it also showed them how to commune with God himself and if that wasn't enough, God gave them types and shadows of heavenly things. After all, the Tabernacle was a pattern of the heavenly realm.
All of this is realized through covenant and the sacrificial system with it's sacrafices and offerings. This is why Paul says in Ephesians 4 that Christ was both a sacrifice and an offering and this all happened at the time of passover which was typified with the blood of the lamb.
In Jesus sermon on the mount, everything Jesus says can be directly traced back to the Torah. Now then, I challenge you to find that which you say isn't there because when you say something isn't there, what your really saying is you don't know how the Torah was applied, let alone interpreted.
Grace and Peace.
to everything you said. [MENTION=841]StoveBolts[/MENTION]
Yes, I know what you mean, especially my closing statement -
Actually what I am saying is: If it isn't written in the Law of Moses, Then don't add what you "think" might need to be added.
I appreciate your kind heart, however if you knew what groups like Messianic Judaism teaches, and the "rules of interpretation" that they go by, you would understand why I said what I said.
Rabbis that are teachers of Judaism reject Jesus as Messiah because what He taught is not written in the Law.
Teachers of Messianic Judaism, teach the followers that Jesus is not YHWH or Lord or God, because that is not what the Law of Moses says. http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/faqs/is-yeshua-god/
Teachers of Messianic Judaism teaches that a person must be circumcised in order to be in Covenant with the Lord. http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/faqs/do-i-need-to-be-circumcised/
Here is a quote from their website -
Ministries like Psalms 119 also teach similar things, one such is that Acts 15 is proof that Paul lost the argument and that believers should be circumcised and keep the law.
Ryan fully agrees with this.
Here is what Paul said about these things and I quote -
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9
Teaching that Christians should be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses is exactly what Paul calls perverting the Gospel, and preaching any other Gospel.
I am sure Paul could use some lessons in "kindness" from you as well, brother.
JLB
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Jesus fulfilled the law. Please read verse 17, and see the context.
As it is written -
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12
JLB
This thread made me think of this
This apocryphal tale attributed to the Renaissance scientist Sir Francis Bacon illustrates the conflict between tradition and truth:
In the year of our Lord 1432, there arose a grievous quarrel among the brethren over the number of teeth in the mouth of a horse. For thirteen days the disputation raged without ceasing. All the ancient books and chronicles were fetched out, and wonderful and ponderous erudition such as was never before heard of in this region was made manifest. At the beginning of the fourteenth day, a youthful friar of goodly bearing asked his learned superiors for permission to add a word, and straightway, to the wonderment of the disputants, whose deep wisdom he sore vexed, he beseeched them to unbend in a manner coarse and unheard-of and to look in the open mouth of a horse and find answer to their questionings. At this, their dignity being grievously hurt, they waxed exceeding wroth; and, joining in a mighty uproar, they flew upon him and smote him, hip and thigh, and cast him out forthwith. For, said they, surely Satan hath tempted this bold neophyte to declare unholy and unheard-of ways of finding truth, contrary to all the teachings of the fathers. After many days more of grievous strife, the dove of peace sat on the assembly, and they as one man declaring the problem to be an everlasting mystery because of a grievous dearth of historical and theological evidence thereof, so ordered the same writ down.
This apocryphal tale attributed to the Renaissance scientist Sir Francis Bacon illustrates the conflict between tradition and truth:
In the year of our Lord 1432, there arose a grievous quarrel among the brethren over the number of teeth in the mouth of a horse. For thirteen days the disputation raged without ceasing. All the ancient books and chronicles were fetched out, and wonderful and ponderous erudition such as was never before heard of in this region was made manifest. At the beginning of the fourteenth day, a youthful friar of goodly bearing asked his learned superiors for permission to add a word, and straightway, to the wonderment of the disputants, whose deep wisdom he sore vexed, he beseeched them to unbend in a manner coarse and unheard-of and to look in the open mouth of a horse and find answer to their questionings. At this, their dignity being grievously hurt, they waxed exceeding wroth; and, joining in a mighty uproar, they flew upon him and smote him, hip and thigh, and cast him out forthwith. For, said they, surely Satan hath tempted this bold neophyte to declare unholy and unheard-of ways of finding truth, contrary to all the teachings of the fathers. After many days more of grievous strife, the dove of peace sat on the assembly, and they as one man declaring the problem to be an everlasting mystery because of a grievous dearth of historical and theological evidence thereof, so ordered the same writ down.
Ryan
Member
Please don't speak for me and what I believe. Are there many aspects of "certain" groups of Messianic Jewish teachings I subscribe to, without a doubt. But there is also a bunch of questionable teachings that don't sit well with me either. I ain't going to defend the whole movement, because just like any group, there are crazies and fringe groups out there that are just not scriptural. That being said, Messianic Judaism has a good grasp on the Torah because there is thousands of years of history there of how the early Sages interpreted different passages. Again, some good stuff, some bad stuff.
But lately the Hebrew Roots and going back to the original language is really where it is at. If you want to dig deeper into the bible and understand prophecy that is based in the Torah, it truly is amazing. So just a plug, Brad Scott, Rico Cortes, and Mark Biltz have amazing teachings that I urge any student of the bible if you want to get a different perspective on the bible from the original language it was written in, start with those amigos.
So again, let me explain what I believe and don't please. And for the record, circumcision is a commandment, but Paul made it very clear that and trying to keep those other commandments was never a salvation issue, or it merited one special status. I see there is a thread about is baptism necessary for salvation. Well back then, the question of the day was is circumcision necessary for salvation? Answer to both questions is no.
stovebolts
Member
I think you missed my point... Or perhaps I missed yours. What I would really like to get out of is this mindset of us verses them. Please, talk with me, not at me is all I am asking.
I understand where you are coming from. However, until you try to live the commandments you'll never really understand what Jesus was talking about. Let me put it this way, when you try to live out the law, it comes at you in different ways depending on the circumstance. You see, living out the law isn't as black and white as a set of rules that dictate black and white scenarios. Life is complicated and any serious student of the Law understands this.
For exercise, lets try this law found in Deuteronemy 6. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength. Sounds simple huh? Lets look at the last one.. Strength. What does it look like to Love the Lord your God with all your strength? I'm not talking about ideology now, I'm talking about where the rubber meets the road.
You claim that something isn't in the Torah, but it actually is. The problem is, you don't see it because you don't understand the Law. Please know I don't expect you to understand the law, but please have enough humility to know what you don't know. The sad part is, your coming into a conversation that Jesus is having with the crowds with no understanding of the teachings on the Torah from Hillel or Shammia let alone any of the Sages. Again, living out the Torah is different than reading the Torah from a 21st century view point. More on that later.
When we base our interpretation on a stand against another, our focus is not on the scriptures, but rather that which we oppose. This is similar to kicking against the goads and is akin to saying, "the color red is a bad color because you like red. Besides, I like blue better so blue is the best color." Or rather, "If you knew what Joe teaches, you wouldn't like the color red and then you would understand why I like the color blue".
Paul struggled with Messianic Jews, but he also tried to build a bridge between the two groups and he taught the gentiles how to accept them. Yes, he is straight forward in Galatians, but how about all the other places in scripture where Paul teaches the gentiles to accept and overlook their differences? I can come up with many, many passages for this, and I would hope that you would be able to know them, and lean on them at this time as well.
Again, a bad excuse for proper exegesis. I enjoy reading Ramban who quotes from other Rabbi's and the Sages etc even though they rail against Jesus as the Messiah. Often when I'm reading their commentaries I shake my head and say to myself, "They are writing about Jesus! Why can't they see it!". In short, just because they don't see it, doesn't mean they don't bring much to the table that should be accepted.
So what. I don't believe that Jesus is YHVH either and I don't think anyone has to believe that Jesus is YHVH to be saved. Does this mean I don't believe in the Trinity? Of course not. Will I get into a discussion with you on the trinity? Probably not.
Ryan stated above this post that he doesn't agree with that statement. I don't believe one has to speak in tongues as a sign that one is saved, and I don't think you have to pick up deadly snakes either. As Ryan said, there are many variants of belief's within a "community".
Here is my point though. We shouldn't take all this baggage with us into a proper exegesis which brings me back to the point I made earlier and assigned you your homework. If you want to jump into conversation that Jesus is having then you ought to know what they are talking about because what they are talking about can be found in Torah. Question is, will you search for it? It's not hard to find.
I think Ryan made it very clear what he believes in regard to Circumcision. An apology would be nice.
I agree. Amazing prophetic implications in the OT.
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
... and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
There are other aspects of the Law that are considered a yoke of bondage.
I don't ever find any of the Messianic groups teaching what Paul taught about this subject. They only teach what Moses taught.
What is the motive for wanting to keep the law of Moses, from your perspective?
JLB
I need to do better with this. Please share some examples of how I talk at you, so I can change this. I will change.
I hear you your heart, but I don't agree, if someone is teaching folks that they must keep the law, such as feast days, or not wear special clothing, or keep the Sabbath as Moses prescribed, or not kindle a fire on Saturday, and just plainly twist what Jesus and Paul said, to bring people under the Law, then I am against what they teach, they have crossed the line.
Paul placed a curse on people who do this.
I do not place a curse on people, I am not Paul, nor do I have his authority, but I do point them to Galatians 1, where he does this.
In our discussions, Ryan has indicated that he believes circumcision is a valid New Testament practice.
If Ryan states that Circumcision is not a valid New Testament practice, then I will say I apologize for misunderstanding him.
YHWH is the Lord.
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10
Who is speaking here in this verse. Here's a hint: Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1
And by the way, Ryan confesses that Jesus {Yeshua} is YHWH.
Thank you brother, I will work at not talking at you, give me examples of how I have done this, I will change.
JLB
stovebolts
Member
Let's look at this.
You have heard it said = Law of Moses
This is partially correct but it is good to know that it was God who gave Moses these laws. Thus, the Law of Moses was the Law of God.
Now then, let us look at, "You have heard it said". This is referring to how God's law was interpreted as it pertained to how one lived his life in accordance with God's Laws. You see, as a good Jew you would want to live out the Law to it's best intent so that you could live more in accordance to how God initially created us to live knowing that all scriptures had to be interpreted.
But I say = Law of Christ
Again, the Law of Moses is the Law of God and Jesus said that "The Father and I are one". When Jesus says "But I say", what he is saying is this. I am telling you the proper interpretation of Torah. This is why he says earlier that he is not out to abolish the Torah.
I wanted to use this example because it's one I know.
The "It has been said" comes from the discussion of the passages in Torah pertaining to a certificate of divorce, but how is this interpreted? Ironically, this is the only interpretation where Jesus sides with the school of Shemmia and is against the school of Hillel.
You see, the school of Shemmia said that you could divorce your wife for any reason at all. Look up the verse in the Torah that talks about a certificate of divorce and then try to decipher what would be a proper justification for divorce and you'll soon enter into the discussion of living out the Torah and you'll find yourself quickly seeing how non black and white the commandments were. So, while Hillel interpreted that verse to mean if you didn't like the way your wife cooked, you could get a divorce, the school of Shammia said the only cause for divorce was marital unfaithfulness.
As far as exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees, Jesus also tells his audience to do that which the Pharisees do, and then more. Why? Because the Pharisees were doing a lot of the right things, but they got their priorities mixed up and put the weight of the Torah in the wrong areas.
Consider these verses -
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' = Law of Moses
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
I am sorry brother, but the Law of Moses says to hate your enemies.
The Law of Christ says to love your enemies.
Jesus is teaching the opposite of the Law of Moses, not expounding on how to keep it.
In order to obey what Jesus said here, you must disregard what was taught in the Law of Moses.
Love is the opposite from hate.
The whole entire animal sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood with all the special food laws and clothing laws and feast days that were required are all invalid, and have vanished away at the cross.
JLB