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The Law, works and keeping his comandments

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(Okay, it's clear you can't overcome the indoctrination that you've been taught about the law. But I like this subject anyway, so I'll just chime in about the law.)

"...faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

No such thing? I see Paul plainly speaking about faith finding it's expression in the fruit of the Spirit. But you probably want to argue with him, right?

For purely forum entertainment purposes, what is it that you disagree with Paul about intangible faith in Christ being translated into actual behavioral obedience? No such thing? Really? I'm pretty sure you're one of those, along with me, who insists that faith MUST do this for that faith to save a person.

Faith expressing itself through love is what Paul said.

Now I ask you to show me the scripture that states faith in God "translating" into the fruit of the Spirit.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

Just because you yourself have faith in Christ for salvation, does not mean you are walking in the fruit of the Spirit.


JLB
 
Jethro Bodine , another question for you? I know, I can be a pain but I am trying to get to the crux if what everyone believes.

In an old post in this thread you had said, "that we nurture the fruit of the Spirit." What do you mean be this?
 
Jethro Bodine , another question for you? I know, I can be a pain but I am trying to get to the crux if what everyone believes.

In an old post in this thread you had said, "that we nurture the fruit of the Spirit." What do you mean be this?
By keeping the garden clean of weeds.

It takes time to grow a good crop of righteous living. It doesn't spring up over night. In the parable of the sower the one who had the harvest was the one who retained what was sown in his heart and didn't let it get choked out by weeds.
 
Faith expressing itself through love is what Paul said.

Now I ask you to show me the scripture that states faith in God "translating" into the fruit of the Spirit.
You just said it, "faith expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6).

Faith with legs on it is the action of godly love towards others. James speaks of this same thing when he says, "I'll show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV 1978).



For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

Just because you yourself have faith in Christ for salvation, does not mean you are walking in the fruit of the Spirit.
Which is why Paul and James and John and Peter all exhort us to put feet on our faith and actually do something in accordance with the faith we have. The danger being, the faith that does not act is the faith that can not justify.
 
You just said it, "faith expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6).

Faith with legs on it is the action of godly love towards others. James speaks of this same thing when he says, "I'll show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV 1978).


Which is why Paul and James and John and Peter all exhort us to put feet on our faith and actually do something in accordance with the faith we have. The danger being, the faith that does not act is the faith that can not justify.

That would be a good description of dead works.

Faith is the result of Hearing and obeying what God leads you to do.

Many in the church do a lot of "things" that May or may not be a result of God moving upon them.


JLB
 
By keeping the garden clean of weeds.

It takes time to grow a good crop of righteous living. It doesn't spring up over night. In the parable of the sower the one who had the harvest was the one who retained what was sown in his heart and didn't let it get choked out by weeds.

OK thanks for your answer. Let me see if I understand though?
You see yourself (heart) as a garden. You keep the garden clean of weeds in your heart and grow a good crop by righteous living. You do this by retaining the seed that was sown in your heart.
 
That would be a good description of dead works.

Faith is the result of Hearing and obeying what God leads you to do.

Many in the church do a lot of "things" that May or may not be a result of God moving upon them.


JLB

Yes and this can be seen in many self appointed Pastors etc.
 
That would be a good description of dead works.

Faith is the result of Hearing and obeying what God leads you to do.

Many in the church do a lot of "things" that May or may not be a result of God moving upon them.


JLB

I agree that whatever we do should be what the Lord instructs us to do. And that all things that are done are not always what they appear to be. One doing works for any other reason than to obey Christ is not a work of faith. That's not to say all these works would be evil but that they are not works of faith.

I wouldn't call loving each other "dead works" unless one just gives lip service to it.
If one truly loves and they see a brother in need and they have the means to help him and don't wouldn't that be 'dead faith'?
 
I agree that whatever we do should be what the Lord instructs us to do. And that all things that are done are not always what they appear to be. One doing works for any other reason than to obey Christ is not a work of faith. That's not to say all these works would be evil but that they are not works of faith.

I wouldn't call loving each other "dead works" unless one just gives lip service to it.
If one truly loves and they see a brother in need and they have the means to help him and don't wouldn't that be 'dead faith'?

That would not be love, for sure.
 
I agree that whatever we do should be what the Lord instructs us to do. And that all things that are done are not always what they appear to be. One doing works for any other reason than to obey Christ is not a work of faith. That's not to say all these works would be evil but that they are not works of faith.

I wouldn't call loving each other "dead works" unless one just gives lip service to it.
If one truly loves and they see a brother in need and they have the means to help him and don't wouldn't that be 'dead faith'?

This is also true of seeing a brother who is in need of some truth, one who had erred from the truth and gone astray.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20

The phrase cover a multitude of sins is love language.

JLB
 
This is also true of seeing a brother who is in need of some truth, one who had erred from the truth and gone astray.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20

The phrase cover a multitude of sins is love language.

JLB

JLB, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't criticizing, least of all for you speaking up. I'm sorry it sounded that way to you.

And agree the James 5, is speaking of loving one's brother.
 
JLB, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't criticizing, least of all for you speaking up. I'm sorry it sounded that way to you.

And agree the James 5, is speaking of loving one's brother.

I didn't think you were criticizing at all.

Sorry if I came across that way.


JLB
 
This is good news because I was getting pretty tired of 'do not covet', 'do not commit adultery', and 'do not steal', and all the other commandments.
24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The difference between Matt. 5:18 and 24:35 is subtle, but important. Matt. 5:18 places time restrictions on the Old Covenant. Its words shall not pass away until heaven and earth do and "until everything is accomplished." On the other hand, Matt. 24:35 says that Jesus’ words will never pass away, even when heaven and earth do. This places no time restrictions on his words. His words subtly and quietly take authority over previous sacred texts.

The third and final stage in the larger literary context takes place after Jesus’ death and resurrection (Matt. 28:16-20). It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of these two unified events in terms of his fulfillment of the Old Covenant. By them he fulfills most of the promises, but he is still fulfilling others. Some will not be fulfilled until his Second Coming. But he himself ushers in this fulfillment. Be that as it may, after his death and resurrection, his mission is complete and final. He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth (which raises him much higher than a mere prophet). Before he ascends into heaven, he instructs his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Then he tells his disciples which words to teach the nations:

28:20 [Teach] them to obey everything I have commanded you.

The revelation to his disciples about Jesus’ authority in words is now complete. He commands his disciples to teach all nations his words first and foremost. But he does not destroy the Old Testament—far from it. His followers are encouraged—commanded—to read it. But Jesus’ words take priority in the Christian’s life. The disciples read the Old Testament through Christ’s words and the rest of the New Testament. A longstanding adage wisely says: The New is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed.

These three stages should not be misinterpreted. It is not as if Jesus grows in his authority. He always had it. Rather, he reveals his authority gradually. That was his way. He did not boast to the world about his true nature as the Son of God, but he kept it a secret for the most part. He accepted the popular (but ultimately inadequate) titles of Prophet, Teacher, and Rabbi, but to his inner circle and sometimes to those on the outside he revealed his true status as the Son of God (Matt. 16:15-20 and 26:63-64).

But these three stages reveal a subtle shift from the Old Covenant (without destroying it) to the New Covenant and Jesus’ new leadership. He is in the process of unfolding God’s plan of salvation to the world, and he does this gradually.

But now we must return to the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, when he first discusses the Old Testament in terms that his disciples can understand. The Old Covenant is in full force during the Sermon on the Mount, and he moves gradually to shift their attention to the New Covenant.

An Exegesis of Matthew 5:17-20

Matt. 5:17-20 is best analyzed verse by verse, sometimes clause by clause, and even word by word.

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Antinomianism means to oppose law that regulates life. Jesus was not an antinomian. He was not against the law. As a devout Jew he honored it. But he must make the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, from the law of Moses to the law of Christ. That is his mission.

The following three clauses and words in verse 17 are important for understanding this verse.

I have come: These words make the entire four verses Christ-centered. Indeed, this fits into the four Gospels. He is the one who fulfills the Old Testament by his sinless life. He is the one to fulfill its prophecies about his first coming. He fulfills it by his death and resurrection. He is the one to fulfill it by the establishment of his worldwide church. And he will fulfill it at his Second Coming.

Abolish: this translation is appropriate for a literary context, but it does not express the full meaning. The Greek word is kataluô, whose primary meaning is "destroy," "demolish," "dismantle" as in a house or temple, or "detach a stone from a building." It is found in the context of destroying the temple in Jerusalem (Matt. 24:2; 26:61). But outside of the New Testament in a literary context, it can mean to rescind not a law here or a law there, but the whole law at once, thus destroying the People of God (2 Maccabees 2:22; 4:11; 4 Maccabees 5:33) (Meier p. 70). This is revealing of Matt. 5:17. Jesus does not destroy the law as a whole, but he does fulfill passages, such as animal sacrifices.

Maybe an analogy or illustration will help. Let’s suppose that an Old House represents the Old Covenant Scriptures, and a New House represents the New Covenant and Christ’s ministry and the New Testament. Christ does not demolish the Old House, but he keeps it intact. Instead, he builds his New House next to it or even connected to it, sharing the same divine foundation. Christians live in the New House, which is grander and taller and has newer furnishings. They are allowed to visit the Old House. That is, they may read Psalms, Proverbs, the prophets, histories, the Torah, and so on. They may be edified by the stories and principles found there, just as a visitor to the grand Old House can learn a lot from and enjoy the old furnishings and old-style architecture. But the Old House does not hold them in. They live in the New House.

All analogies are flawed, and in this case the New House may not accurately represent the organic connection to the Old House (as a tree would, cf. Romans 11:11-24). Also, the analogy should not be misinterpreted. The Old House does not represent the house built on sand, nor does the New House represent the house built on the rock (Matt. 7:24-27). Both the Old Testament and the New Testament share the same bedrock foundation of divine inspiration. But in favor of the analogy, it shows how to preserve the Old House and not destroy it, while the New House can exist next to it or even connected to it. Jesus was a carpenter in his earthly life, and now he is a spiritual carpenter, so to speak.

Fulfill: This word means to complete a promise or a prophecy or a prediction. The Old Covenant is to the New Covenant what promise is to fulfillment. The Old Testament contained types and shadows, which find their full meaning and substance in Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment in his very being and in his coming to earth.

What are some of the areas or themes in the Old Testament that Christ fulfills? The following five major ones represent others.

(1) In the Torah, the three main traditional divisions are fulfilled: the moral, judicial, and ceremonial.

First, Jesus fulfills the moral law. This is the foundation of the Old Testament. It demanded that the people of God keep of the commands, but could they? Even the most devout may have been good, but they were not good enough. However, Christ in his sinless life fulfills all of the demands because he walked in perfect love. One day, an expert in the law sought to trap Jesus, asking him what the greatest commandment was. Jesus replied:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Matt. 22:37-40).

Jesus fulfilled both of them perfectly. Now we ask for His Spirit so we can do the same, always depending on his love and mercy when we fail.

Some Christian scholars and pastors believe that the Ten Commandments are still binding on them because they contain the essence of the moral law. That is a plausible interpretation. However, it may be better if all Christians focused on loving their neighbors. That is the best way to fulfill all of the moral law in obedience to Christ. In Romans 13:8-10 the inspired Apostle Paul repeats some of the Ten Commandments (e.g. do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, and do not covet), but he concludes that "love is the fulfillment of the law" (v. 10).

You may elaborate-
Johann.
 
The revelation to his disciples about Jesus’ authority in words is now complete. He commands his disciples to teach all nations his words first and foremost. But he does not destroy the Old Testament—far from it. His followers are encouraged—commanded—to read it. But Jesus’ words take priority in the Christian’s life. The disciples read the Old Testament through Christ’s words and the rest of the New Testament. A longstanding adage wisely says: The New is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed.
Jesus begins the new testament, by bringing man away from ordinances, away from the coldness of the letter, for Christ to be believed on in the heart, to be there in the heart, and the old then, becomes very old, because of the new thing given in the earth and in us.

The new had to come to earth to be new, the old has nothing of the new, or it would not be new.

So simple, and so complicated by people and yet it is even easier to put back to its originally state.



Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
 

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