The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[Drew]

In this thread, I will try to make an exceedingly careful argument as to why Ephesians 2:8-9 does not deny ultimate justification by good works. People in other threads have been ignoring arguments about this and I am quite convinced that they are intentionally screening arguments that would challenge their position on how we are ultimately saved. The material in this thread should give these evaders “no place to hideâ€. However, let the reader not take my word for this. Let the reader consider the arguments I put forward and carefully watch how these arguments are ignored and / or side-stepped. Because I am 99 % certain that this is indeed what will happen.

Here is the text in context:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Now if you have read this text carefully, you may already have discerned what “works†Paul is really talking about in verse 9. Please consider reading future posts.

 

[LaCrum]

Now if you have read this text carefully, you may already have discerned what “works†Paul is really talking about in verse 9. Please consider reading future posts.

Um, Paul is speaking about the New Covenant and how through it Gentiles are brought into God's family.

 

[Drew]

There is clear scriptural precedent for Paul to use the term “works†in a context where he is specifically focused on the Law of Moses. Readers need to be aware that to read “works†and automatically substitute this with “good works†is not Biblically legitimate. The use of the term “works†can be used to refer to “good worksâ€, but, as the following text shows, Paul also can use the term “works†when he is talking about the Law of Moses:

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

There is no dispute – in this text, it is the works of the Law of Moses that are in view.

So, to summarize: When Paul writes this:

9not by works, so that no one can boast

….one cannot simply assume that he is talking about good works – he could be talking about the works of the Law of Moses. Which one he is really talking about is determined by context.

And, as we shall see, the context clearly points to the conclusion that, in verse 9, Paul is denying that the works of the Law of Moses save.

Which is a good thing. Because if he were saying that good works do not save, he would be directly contradicting what he writes in Romans 2:6-7 and in Romans 8.

 

[Drew]

Now if you have read this text carefully, you may already have discerned what “works†Paul is really talking about in verse 9. Please consider reading future posts.

Um, Paul is speaking about the New Covenant and how through it Gentiles are brought into God's family.

This is actually part of my argument.

Yes this is what he is talking about. And to say that people are not saved by the works of the Law of Moses - which would limit salvation to the Jew - is precisely what Paul should say if he is making the point you assert he is making.

So this is futher evidence that, in verse 9, Paul is making a statement about how the works of the Law of Moses do not justify. He is not making the entirely different claim that good works do not justify.

And that's good news for those of us who consider all of Paul's statements. Because, as you have been shown, Paul affirms ultimate justification by good works in Romans 2 and Romans 8.

 

[RichardBurger]

Romans 3:21-24
God's Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
NKJV

Not by our own efforts, but a work of God.

Romans 4:1-5
Abraham Justified by Faith (Genesis 17:10)
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
NKJV

Justification is a work of God.

Romans 8:30
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
NKJV

Justitfication is a work of God.

We are not justified by our works, period.

 

[Drew]

“Aren’t the ‘works’ of verse 9 the ‘good works’ of verse 10?â€

No, they are not (although I will not fully make the case here in this post).

Paul makes his statement about how we are not justified by works in verse 9 and then adds a statement about how we are ‘prepared unto good works’. Note that one cannot simply assume that since “good works†are in view in verse 10, that Paul is talking about good works in verse 9. I can understand that it is easy to think that way, but it is not a valid line of thinking. Consider this statement from Paul in Romans 9:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Here, in the context of the very same verse yet, Paul uses the same word “Israel†to denote two entirely different sets of people – the first Israel is a reference to ethnic Jews and the second Israel turns out to be a reference to the Jew + Gentile church. In any event, the point is that it is simply over-simplistic reasoning to conclude that the “works†in verse 9 are the “good works†in verse 10.

Think of it this way. Imagine that Paul wants to say this: salvation is not limited to the Jews, and the Jew cannot boast before God “I followed your Law of Moses, so You owe me salvationâ€. Furthermore, salvation is not based on what we do under our own power anyway – any good works that any person, Jew or Gentile, might do are empowered by God .

One acceptable way to make such a claim is to say this:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I trust the point is clear: It is perfectly possible for Paul to make such a statement and intend the reader to see that the “works†of verse 9 are the works of the Law of Moses, while the works of verse 10 are (clearly) “good worksâ€. Remember, and this is absolutely vital, the single term “worksâ€, for Paul anyway, can indeed be a shorthand way to the refer to practices of the Law of Moses. Let’s be even-handed here: If Paul had written “works of the Law†in verse 9, we would hopefully not be having this discussion since such an expression is a clear reference to the works of the Law of Moses (I suspect that some would deny this anyway, but that only shows how motivated some people are to revise what Paul has written to fit their own schemes). And if Paul had written “good works†in verse 9, then I would clearly have no case.

But he did neither – he used the naked, unqualified term “worksâ€. So the honest exegete will remain open-minded as to whether this is a reference to good works or to the works of the Law of Moses. And, as we will see, context settles the matter – it is the Law of Moses whose power to save is being denied in verse 9.

Another important point: It is manifestly wrong to pre-suppose that “salvation by grace†precludes “salvation by good worksâ€. That would only be true if the good works were produced by unaided self-effort. However, if, as Paul says in Romans 8, these good works that lead to salvation are generated by the Holy Spirit, this is still salvation by grace. Do I really need to explain why?

 

[Drew]

Justitfication is a work of God.

We are not justified by our works, period.

Yes and no.

Justification is indeed a work of God. But as Paul says in texts that many simply ignore, that justification is based on the good works that God has produced in our lives.

 

[glorydaz]

There is clear scriptural precedent for Paul to use the term “works†in a context where he is specifically focused on the Law of Moses. Readers need to be aware that to read “works†and automatically substitute this with “good works†is not Biblically legitimate. The use of the term “works†can be used to refer to “good worksâ€, but, as the following text shows, Paul also can use the term “works†when he is talking about the Law of Moses:

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

There is no dispute – in this text, it is the works of the Law of Moses that are in view.

So, to summarize: When Paul writes this:

9not by works, so that no one can boast

….one cannot simply assume that he is talking about good works – he could be talking about the works of the Law of Moses. Which one he is really talking about is determined by context.

And, as we shall see, the context clearly points to the conclusion that, in verse 9, Paul is denying that the works of the Law of Moses save.

Which is a good thing. Because if he were saying that good works do not save, he would be directly contradicting what he writes in Romans 2:6-7 and in Romans 8.

Your saying there is no dispute does not make it so. Of course there's dispute...how could there not be? The Law of Moses has nothing to do with this portion of Scripture.

No, Drew...you take a leap too big. Paul is not talking about the Law of Moses. He is speaking to..."Ye being in time past Gentiles...at that time ye were without Christ...being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel". I don't see how you can claim Paul is talking about the Law of Moses. These people have been saved by grace....aliens to the "Law of Moses". Because Paul has spoken of the law of Moses before does not mean it applies every time works or law are brought up. You see here...ANY MAN...no one can boast of their works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[glorydaz]

Justitfication is a work of God.

We are not justified by our works, period.

Yes and no.

Justification is indeed a work of God. But as Paul says in texts that many simply ignore, that justification is based on the good works that God has produced in our lives.

We aren't justified by the good works God has produced either...we are justified by faith and then God produces good deeds...the fruit of the Spirit, actually. What of the man that believes on his death bed? He has no time to produce anything. What about those who don't mature the way all believers should? Why are we to come as "little children"? Justification comes by faith...plain and simple. After we are justified, then Christ can work through us and the love of God is manifest in our lives.

Sanctification is the perfecting of the saints...that comes after salvation. Now that I think of it, I can see you're confusing justification with sanctification. Read this...it may clear things up.

Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?
Understanding the difference between justification and sanctification can be as important as understanding the difference between salvation and damnation. Rightly dividing between the two is of crucial importance. When you understand what they are, you can then draw a line in the sand and say, "This is what saves. This is not what saves."

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.

Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.
http://www.carm.org/justification-and-sanctification

 

[Drew]

Your saying there is no dispute does not make it so. Of course there's dispute...how could there not be? The Law of Moses has nothing to do with this portion of Scripture.

Look gd, I said that there was no dispute that this verse, this verse, gd, is about the Law of Moses:

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

The "book of the law" is the Law of Moses. There is no doubt about this. None.

 

[Drew]

We aren't justified by the good works God has produced either..

I doubt you will answer this question but here goes. Why would Paul write this if, as you say, ultimate justification is not based on good works?

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. "

Why gd, why, why, why, would Paul make a statement that he knows to be false?

Where gd, where, where, where, does Paul say "I am describing what is only a hypothetical possibility?

 

[Drew]

Paul is not talking about the Law of Moses.

Please gd:

15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

What is Paul talking about? He is talking about the abolition of the Law of Moses.

 

[glorydaz]

We aren't justified by the good works God has produced either..

I doubt you will answer this question but here goes. Why would Paul write this if, as you say, ultimate justification is not based on good works?

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. "

Why gd, why, why, why, would Paul make a statement that he knows to be false?

Where gd, where, where, where, does Paul say "I am describing what is only a hypothetical possibility?

Why, why, why, why, Drew, does Paul say, "why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" He knows that to be false, too, since he has been justified and saved.

Paul is presenting an argument...he is asking questions as if he were a Jew and then answering the question he'd been asked. His whole style of writing in Romans is in dialogue form. The book of Romans is famous for the way it's written and the way Paul lays out the plan of salvation. I have tried to explain this to you before. You cannot take one verse, in the middle of Paul's argument, and claim a great truth which Paul isn't making when it's a "part" of his argument. In the first place...the "he will give" portion of that verse has been added by the translators. It is not said that way by Paul and it totally misleads anyone who hasn't been paying adequate attention to the argument in progress. Paul spends the first 2 1/2 chapters showing that man is not righteous and deserves judgment from a righteous God. The whole entire 2 1/2 chapters....if you fail to see that, you will never understand Romans.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul is not talking about the Law of Moses.

Please gd:

15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

What is Paul talking about? He is talking about the abolition of the Law of Moses.

He was not talking about the law when he was speaking to the Gentiles from the first of chapter one through to the end of two when he speaks of the enmity between them and the Jews. "Ye being in times past Gentiles", "At that time ye were without Christ...being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel."

"But now"...he goes on to speak of the middle wall of partition being broken down and mentions the commandments and the law the Jews were under. The Gentiles were not under the law of Moses themselves, which is when he was talking about the "works" the Gentiles were doing. He's simple saying the enmity has been removed. You're putting the law on the Gentiles when they were never ever under it, and claiming it applies to them.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[stranger]

Drew wrote:

But he did neither – he used the naked, unqualified term “worksâ€. So the honest exegete will remain open-minded as to whether this is a reference to good works or to the works of the Law of Moses. And, as we will see, context settles the matter – it is the Law of Moses whose power to save is being denied in verse 9.

Hi Drew,

The honest exegete would presumably recognise the distinction between what is revealed and where interpretation begins.

In regard to the power of the Law of Moses to save.... There was/is also another power at work called 'the law of sin and death.' This needs to be figured into the broader context of the discussion since it was this law that found opportunity in the commandment... and caused the Jews, as a nation, to fail to obtain the salvation they sought. Wording it this way allows for individuals to have found that salvation.

But getting back to your argument there is a relation between justification and good works. This is already spelt out in Rom 2:13 NASB

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Consider 10 men who consider themselves to be saved. 10 believe they are justified, but only 5 can be described as 'doers of the law' according to Rom2:13. The 'doers of the law' are those who have entered into 'good works'.

Based on Rom 2:13 The prognosis for the justified 'doers of the law' is life; the prognosis for the justified 'sinner and remaining a sinner until death' is death. Bear in mind that I am calling this 'a prognosis.' What do you think? You are affirming that only or ultimately the doers of good works are justified. So 'faith alone for justification' as it stands seems to be a premature declaration?


blessings brother

 

[Drew]

The honest exegete would presumably recognise the distinction between what is revealed and where interpretation begins.

I am not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

In regard to the power of the Law of Moses to save.... There was/is also another power at work called 'the law of sin and death.' This needs to be figured into the broader context of the discussion since it was this law that found opportunity in the commandment... and caused the Jews, as a nation, to fail to obtain the salvation they sought.

Wow. I entirely agree with this analysis. I agree that there is indeed the "law of sin and death" that is actually empowered by the Law of Moses - as you point out (you have obviously thought about Romans 7 and correctly discerned that it does not describe the struggles of the Christian, but rather of the Jew under the Law of Moses. But I think this does not really change what is otherwise clear: people (intentionally or otherwise) transform Paul's denial of justification by the Law of Moses into a denial of justification by good works, thereby forcing us to conclude that Paul has made an error in Romans 2.

But getting back to your argument there is a relation between justification and good works. This is already spelt out in Rom 2:13 NASB

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Well, of course, Can you explain the thinking of those who deny the truth of this? I cannot, and am mystified by the "arguments" of gd and MM.

 

[Drew]

Consider 10 men who consider themselves to be saved. 10 believe they are justified, but only 5 can be described as 'doers of the law' according to Rom2:13. The 'doers of the law' are those who have entered into 'good works'.

Based on Rom 2:13 The prognosis for the justified 'doers of the law' is life; the prognosis for the justified 'sinner and remaining a sinner until death' is death. Bear in mind that I am calling this 'a prognosis.' What do you think? You are affirming that only or ultimately the doers of good works are justified. So 'faith alone for justification' as it stands seems to be a premature declaration?

I basically agree with this, but I would put things this way (as I have said in the past): The person who, by faith alone, becomes a Christian is given the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then transforms that person into one who will become the kind of person who will pass the Romans 2 "good works" judgement.

This way, we affirm all that Paul says, and screen out nothing. We affirm that salvation is by grace through faith. But we also affirm that one manifestation of this grace is that the Spirit transforms us into people who do good works. And that is indeed how we are "judged" at the end in respect to ultimate salvation.

So yes, I take Paul at his word - ultimate justification is indeed "by good works". And despite what others will say, this denies not one iota of "salvation by grace through faith", as understood as what can be predicated of the believer in the present. Note how this view also honours Paul's references as to how "Christians are being saved" - I read this very phrase in 1 and / or 2 Corinthians just yesterday.

Again, the "works" that do not justify in Eph 2:8-9 are, by context, clearly the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[stranger]

stranger wrote: The honest exegete would presumably recognise the distinction between what is revealed and where interpretation begins.

I am not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

Hi Drew,

The distinction I am referring to is between a text of scripture (or written revelation - what is revealed) and our interpretation of that text. The distinction becomes apparent when the text and my interpretation are compared side by side. Here is a simplified example using Eph 2: 8,9 (NASB)

text: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

interpretation: For by grace you have been saved through faith alone; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I did the same thing on the tread about the Lord's supper:
text: this is My body

interpretation: this represents My body.

The words 'alone' and 'represents' are interpretative comments not found in the contexts they are (often) associated with.

stranger wrote: But getting back to your argument there is a relation between justification and good works. This is already spelt out in Rom 2:13 NASB for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Well, of course, Can you explain the thinking of those who deny the truth of this? I cannot, and am mystified by the "arguments" of gd and MM.

No disrespect to gd and MM - so my following comment applies to the Protestant 'sola justification'. Rom 2:13 is hardly a proof text for justification alone or justification by faith alone, is it? Perhaps there is a perception that all this distorts the gospel.

blessings brother:

 

[glorydaz]

stranger wrote: But getting back to your argument there is a relation between justification and good works. This is already spelt out in Rom 2:13 NASB for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Well, of course, Can you explain the thinking of those who deny the truth of this? I cannot, and am mystified by the "arguments" of gd and MM.

No disrespect to gd and MM - so my following comment applies to the Protestant 'sola justification'. Rom 2:13 is hardly a proof text for justification alone or justification by faith alone, is it? Perhaps there is a perception that all this distorts the gospel.

blessings brother:

I'm not putting faith alone in that verse, although it is clearly stated in the Word that salvation is not by works. In fact, the Bible is clear it's by grace through faith that we are saved. The problem arises when someone claims it's only the works of the Jews that don't save, but other works do.

Romans 2 is not a "proof text" for justification at all. Nor is it a "proof text" for salvation by works.
It is an explanation of how man will be judged, and God's call to repentance.

In fact, this first portion of Romans 2 that immediately precedes the "contested verse" is never taken into consideration at all, and it should be. This is not speaking just to the Jews...they are not the only ones who judge others. I've been accused of lying and misrepresenting...those accusing me of that have condemned themselves as they do exactly what they accuse me of. All men are guilty of this...not just the Jews.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Do good deeds save man....when all have sinned?
Do good deeds justify man's sin?
Do good deeds cover man's sin?
Do good deeds keep sin from being imputed unto man?

What Paul is doing is explaining the condition of mankind...they all sin and fall short. There is no difference between Jew and Greek. They all sin...either under the Law of Moses or under the law written on their conscience. All of mankind is without excuse. They all see sin in others and none in themselves. They will all be JUDGED by the deeds they have done in this life. The question isn't how man is judged, it's how men are saved. Changing a comma in verse 7 to the words..."God will give" proves nothing except the verse has been mistranslated in some Bibles. We can know this because of what follows in the rest of Romans.

There's no denying ALL MEN SIN...but some deny that.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

There's no denying the Lord does not impute sin to some people. (Sounds like grace to me.)

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[stranger]

stranger wrote:

No disrespect to gd and MM - so my following comment applies to the Protestant 'sola justification'. Rom 2:13 is hardly a proof text for justification alone or justification by faith alone, is it? Perhaps there is a perception that all this distorts the gospel.

glorydaz wrote:

I'm not putting faith alone in that verse, although it is clearly stated in the Word that salvation is not by works. In fact, the Bible is clear it's by grace through faith that we are saved. The problem arises when someone claims it's only the works of the Jews that don't save, but other works do.

Let me begin be commenting on this briefly. I came to this OP in the middle of a discussion that was well advanced. My question is: why is justification (justified by faith) so often mentioned, not only in the same context as 'good works', but also in the same verse? Romans 2:13 is an example of this.

A secondary issue concerns 'faith alone'. The words 'faith alone' only appear once in scripture in James 2:24 and there the Apostle denies that man is justified by faith alone: 'You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.' From this I can still infer that 'man is justified by faith, but not by faith alone'. The other examples include Rahab and Abraham - but I have not looked at these.

Romans 2 is not a "proof text" for justification at all. Nor is it a "proof text" for salvation by works.

It is an explanation of how man will be judged, and God's call to repentance.

In fact, this first portion of Romans 2 that immediately precedes the "contested verse" is never taken into consideration at all, and it should be. This is not speaking just to the Jews...they are not the only ones who judge others. I've been accused of lying and misrepresenting...those accusing me of that have condemned themselves as they do exactly what they accuse me of. All men are guilty of this...not just the Jews.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Do good deeds save man....when all have sinned?
Do good deeds justify man's sin?
Do good deeds cover man's sin?
Do good deeds keep sin from being imputed unto man?

What Paul is doing is explaining the condition of mankind...they all sin and fall short. There is no difference between Jew and Greek. They all sin...either under the Law of Moses or under the law written on their conscience. All of mankind is without excuse. They all see sin in others and none in themselves. They will all be JUDGED by the deeds they have done in this life. The question isn't how man is judged, it's how men are saved. Changing a comma in verse 7 to the words..."God will give" proves nothing except the verse has been mistranslated in some Bibles. We can know this because of what follows in the rest of Romans.

There's no denying ALL MEN SIN...but some deny that.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

There's no denying the Lord does not impute sin to some people. (Sounds like grace to me.)

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Calvin said that one or two exceptions does not abrogate a general rule. Over time I came across exceptions that didn't fit the 'miserable sinner' portfolio or the general rule. So I had to modify my beliefs according to the scriptural witness. Moses is a good example since we know of two transgressions and can assume many others. However, Moses also spent time in God's presence and would have died had he not been redeemed and sanctified from ALL sin during those times.

blessings brother