The Meaning Of Justified

[dadof10]

I think there was a lot of good stuff on the other thread, before it was closed. Let's try again. Here is the old OP. Let's try to be civil to one another and learn from each other.

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2)

I usually don't start threads, but I have been looking for some feedback on this topic on a couple of other threads, to no avail.

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents. The way it has been explained to me is, when a person HAS "saving faith" he WILL do "good works" to "show" or prove or demonstrate or any other verb you want to use, his "true faith". What he does, doesn't actually save him, but only demonstrates what KIND of faith the person has.

There are two points I want to touch on if you hold this interpretation of James and hold OSAS.

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The standard OSAS line for people who revert back to their previous lives after conversion is "he was never really saved in the first place". The above interpretation of James 2 really destroys this argument because "never really saved..." assumes we CAN'T know, and this interpretation of James says we can.

I don't think a person "showing" their "saving faith" is rare at all. All "born-again Christians" I have ever run across have shown their love for Jesus by CONSTANTLY (nauseatingly so, to some) speaking His Name, reading Scripture, helping at homeless shelters (as in James 2:15-16), volunteering within the community, refraining from sin, changing their "evil ways", etc. Most (all?) newly born-again Christians perform most of these "works" and thus, "show" their "saving faith".

It is also not rare for some who show this faith, to revert back to their previous lives. Some people take years, others months, but there are those who perform all the "works" I listed above (and then some) then, after a certain amount time has past, revert to apathy, or worse, atheism.

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

 

[smaller]

Why some sect members continually insist on the promotion of salvation by works is the real question.

Did any believer stop sinning? No.

Are we saved by being 'a less sinner?' No.

Do we become 'sinless' by rituals and incantations or sacraments? No.

In fact the last place one will actually hear the above would be 'in church.' Everyone there likes to pretend we're sinless.

The essence of Grace is 'unmerited' favor.

Some sects have merely equated God to 'external human morality.'

My 'ethical neighbors' are just as 'externally moral' as I or any other believer is without a wiff of God in Christ.

I would say their external morality is a much higher standard because they are not trying to burn me alive forever for not cottoning up to their sect and their standards of hypocrisy.

How moral is it for one believer to try to promote another believer to burn alive forever for sin? When you too are supposed to STAND on UNMERITIED FAVOR what makes you think you merit any more favor than another believer?

IF a person doesn't believe because they have not heard of God in Christ, in 'some sects' their GOOD WORKS will save them. For these preaching the Gospel to them could actually be a detriment because then they have to worry about the insufficiency of their works.

s

 

[reba]

By Birth we will always be the offspring of our parents...their deaths, adoption etc does not change the biological fact.

Jesus used the term 'born again'.... When are we not God's kids?

This sounds like I am osas ... In realty I am on the fence... is it a matter of degree ?...

What does the term 'backslide' mean... IMO it means " I missed up " it does not mean I turned my back God......

If my salvation depended on me I would be doomed ... Salvation is not ours ..Salvation belongs to the Lord

Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Good works, we should do, are not unto salvation ... Salvation is only by His shed Blood .. When The Almighty applies that Blood can lowly man remove it?

 

[reba]

Having said my piece I will not be posting again here...

Please keep this thread civil make your points to the subject and not the persons....... This spinning in circles is getting very tiresome .... How many times do we need to be reminded we are grown-ups? Moderator

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

You can't reconcile it. I mean if you want to insist that once a person believes and is saved and shows the evidence of that salvation, but then loses their faith was never really saved to begin with. In which case you have no choice but to conclude that 'justify' in James' letter means to 'make' one righteous by what they do, instead of 'show' oneself to be righteous.

To me, a loss of faith means one simple thing...you lost your faith, the condition upon which justification--both definitions--rests. Without faith you can not be made legally justified before God in heaven, nor can you show yourself through your actions to have a legal declaration of righteousness before God that only comes by faith.

It's all about faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By Birth we will always be the offspring of our parents...their deaths, adoption etc does not change the biological fact.

Jesus used the term 'born again'.... When are we not God's kids?

This sounds like I am osas ... In realty I am on the fence...

Me and you both, but I seem to be facing toward the non-OSAS side.

is it a matter of degree ?...

What does the term 'backslide' mean... IMO it means " I missed up " it does not mean I turned my back God......

If my salvation depended on me I would be doomed ... Salvation is not ours ..Salvation belongs to the Lord

Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Good works, we should do, are not unto salvation ... Salvation is only by His shed Blood .. When The Almighty applies that Blood can lowly man remove it?

Seems possible to me since that blood is applied by faith. And the Bible warns us to not lose our faith.

The Galatians were warned of the dire consequences of turning from their faith in Christ for justification, and back to the ceremonial law for justification. So it seems one can really lose their confidence in the blood of Christ for justification (and not stay in that justification). The same warning went out to the Hebrew church.

 

[farouk]

Jethro:

...but you somehow assume that those who end up continuing to live and die in sin were once believers? Why? Just because they once professed, does this make them true, born again believers?

For me the promise at the end of Romans 8 to the believer is very clear.

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

Just look at the first time the word was used. I think Genesis 38:26 is the first time the root word is used. Could be wrong. Then work your way forward.

http://studybible.info/strongs/H6663

 

[Ryan]

Just look at the first time the word was used. I think Genesis 38:26 is the first time the root word is used. Could be wrong. Then work your way forward.

http://studybible.info/strongs/H6663

צְדָקָה (tse-da-qah)​

1. The Hebrew word צדקה (tsedeqah) comes from the root word צדק (tsadaq) literally meaning "to be straight". This word is in contrast to another Hebrew word meaning crooked. The word meaning "crooked" is usually translated as "perverse" and the word צדקה is usually translated as "righteous". Notice the original concrete understanding of these words (straight and crooked) compared to the western abstract concepts (perverse and righteous). One who is "righteous" is one who walks a straight path (moral and upright). One who is "perverse" is one who walks a crooked path (immoral and crawling).

www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/012.doc

Go to the middle of the e-magazine to "Verse of the Month – Genesis 15:6" and it has a run down of the Hebrew words and their function that will shed light and maybe bring a different perspetive to this topic.​

 

[chessman]

Let's try to be civil to one another and learn from each other.

On the other threads I may have come across "snarky" or even misrepresentative at times toward your position. Honestly, that's not my intention. I truly want to understand how other people that disagree with me find proof texts in the Bible for OSAS=no. If it's there, I have no problem believing them. I could discuss this issue further with you one-on-one, it really doesn’t matter to me. However, I do find it easier in some respects to at least have moderation that weed’s out the obviously disrespectful and misrepresentative comments by all parties. The one-on-one debates could just make it that much worse in that respect.
But first, it should be considered acceptable to disagree and even debate with anyone’s specific interpretation and point out logically and Biblically the reasons why someone’s interpretations are not correct or where those interpretations conflict with other Scriptures, without being un-civil in the process. But, yes, it’s a fine-line sometimes, both with disagreeing and defending our beliefs.
Again, I see your point about James 2:21 and 2:25 (and I’ll be glad to get to how I see “The meaning of Justified†in James and every other Scripture.
But just to be clear on my position, I read the whole message of James (including these particular verses) as supporting OSAS, not against it.
Your point is (and I’m not intentionally misrepresenting it):

2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

So obviously you are claiming that James’s use of the word “justified†in 2:21 and 2:25 and then later “backsliding†in life (I assume) proves OSAS=no. Is that basically correct?

Just a stipulation here is that “works†equaling “salvation†would be a much, much broader topic and obviously one that couldn’t be resolved without the whole protestant movement and Catholic church agreeing (else there might not even be division on that doctrine in the first place). I’m just avoiding that whole discussion and trying to understand your specific argument for OSAS in James 2, without discussing that issue at all (politely or otherwiseJ), and looking at this from your perspective on that issue. So:

The above interpretation of James 2 really destroys this argument because "never really saved..." assumes we CAN'T know, and this interpretation of James says we can.

With “the above interpretation†basically being the two “pointsâ€:

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The first problem (the feedback you’ve requested) with your proof is that Abraham and Rahab are obviously saved people. It’s called Abraham’s bosom for a reason and Scripture certainly implies Rahab was saved. Therefore, even if they did “backslide†out of salvation, they must have “slid†back into it later.

Can we first agree on that basic point, since OSAS is still part of your OP reposted here with the specific Title of “The Meaning of Justified�

That is, they were once saved and now currently “saved�

Then I’ll eplain how I view “justified†in verses 21 and 25 toward your view of it’s meaning.

 

[smaller]

Ignoring, and hoping others here will do the same.

Well, you just keep trolling for believers to believe our Savior won't save them.

 

[dadof10]

By Birth we will always be the offspring of our parents...their deaths, adoption etc does not change the biological fact.

Jesus used the term 'born again'.... When are we not God's kids?

This sounds like I am osas ... In realty I am on the fence... is it a matter of degree ?...

What does the term 'backslide' mean... IMO it means " I missed up " it does not mean I turned my back God......

If my salvation depended on me I would be doomed ... Salvation is not ours ..Salvation belongs to the Lord

Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Good works, we should do, are not unto salvation ... Salvation is only by His shed Blood .. When The Almighty applies that Blood can lowly man remove it?

What about if I substituted the word "apostasize" for "backslide" above? Would it change your view? That's more in line with what I mean. I don't mean that when we commit sin we have lost salvation, but that IF we show ourselves to be "righteous" then reject Christ, we lose it.

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[dadof10]

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

You can't reconcile it. I mean if you want to insist that once a person believes and is saved and shows the evidence of that salvation, but then loses their faith was never really saved to begin with. In which case you have no choice but to conclude that 'justify' in James' letter means to 'make' one righteous by what they do, instead of 'show' oneself to be righteous.

To me, a loss of faith means one simple thing...you lost your faith, the condition upon which justification--both definitions--rests. Without faith you can not be made legally justified before God in heaven, nor can you show yourself through your actions to have a legal declaration of righteousness before God that only comes by faith.

It's all about faith.

Excellent, Jethro.

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[dadof10]

On the other threads I may have come across "snarky" or even misrepresentative at times toward your position. Honestly, that's not my intention. I truly want to understand how other people that disagree with me find proof texts in the Bible for OSAS=no. If it's there, I have no problem believing them. I could discuss this issue further with you one-on-one, it really doesn’t matter to me. However, I do find it easier in some respects to at least have moderation that weed’s out the obviously disrespectful and misrepresentative comments by all parties. The one-on-one debates could just make it that much worse in that respect.
But first, it should be considered acceptable to disagree and even debate with anyone’s specific interpretation and point out logically and Biblically the reasons why someone’s interpretations are not correct or where those interpretations conflict with other Scriptures, without being un-civil in the process. But, yes, it’s a fine-line sometimes, both with disagreeing and defending our beliefs.
Again, I see your point about James 2:21 and 2:25 (and I’ll be glad to get to how I see “The meaning of Justified†in James and every other Scripture.
But just to be clear on my position, I read the whole message of James (including these particular verses) as supporting OSAS, not against it.
Your point is (and I’m not intentionally misrepresenting it):


So obviously you are claiming that James’s use of the word “justified†in 2:21 and 2:25 and then later “backsliding†in life (I assume) proves OSAS=no. Is that basically correct?

Just a stipulation here is that “works†equaling “salvation†would be a much, much broader topic and obviously one that couldn’t be resolved without the whole protestant movement and Catholic church agreeing (else there might not even be division on that doctrine in the first place). I’m just avoiding that whole discussion and trying to understand your specific argument for OSAS in James 2, without discussing that issue at all (politely or otherwiseJ), and looking at this from your perspective on that issue. So:

With “the above interpretation†basically being the two “pointsâ€:

1) It is possible to outwardly prove to others that you are really, truly saved.
2) Once it has been satisfactorily shown that the person HAS "saving faith", he can NEVER backslide, or OSAS is false.

The first problem (the feedback you’ve requested) with your proof is that Abraham and Rahab are obviously saved people. It’s called Abraham’s bosom for a reason and Scripture certainly implies Rahab was saved. Therefore, even if they did “backslide†out of salvation, they must have “slid†back into it later.

Can we first agree on that basic point, since OSAS is still part of your OP reposted here with the specific Title of “The Meaning of Justified�

That is, they were once saved and now currently “saved�

Then I’ll explain how I view “justified†in verses 21 and 25 toward your view of it’s meaning.

I'm on my phone and can't comment on all your points. The heart of our conversation seems to be what do Abraham and Rahab show? Do they show what they truly HAVE? That's my point. They are showing that they truly have "saving faith". Do you agree? This is what my entire argument hinges on.

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[chessman]

They are showing that they truly have "saving faith". Do you agree?

I'll asnwer your question and condense mine done to one question.

That is, they [Abraham and Rahab] were once saved and now currently “saved”?

I would answer your question as, Yes. That's exactly James' point. That Abraham and Rahab SHOWED their true faith which was in their case a "saving faith". I stress, as I feel James was stressing, the word "showed" their saving faith in these passages. That's exactly how I view the word "justfied" (see analysis below). How could it be otherwise since James just got through saying:

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(James 2:18 ESV)


I’ve done a complete Bible search for the word “Justified” and it clearly indicates to me that this word’s biblical definition is often (if not always) used within the broader topic of salvation, true. However, “justified” does not totally encompass the word “salvation”.
When the Bible uses “justified” I see a clear aspect within its definition of acts of “sight” (versus belief, or inward faith). And ironically ( didn’t plan this) rather clearly within its the very first usage (Job) is where I get my definition of the meaning of “justified”. It’s largely used describing physical acts that are being viewed. Which is exactly how James ends the Bibles’ use of this word and having just discussed the “acts” of fine clothes versus dirty closes specifically and clearly says that you just cannot “judge a book by its cover”.
Anyway, here’s the listing:
Job 32:2 Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God.
Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.

Isaiah 45:25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.”
Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
Matthew 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Luke 7:35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Romans 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.” [From Ps 51]

Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being1 will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Footnotes: [1] 3:20 Greek flesh
Romans 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 4:1-2 Abraham Justified by Faith
What then shall we say was gained by1 Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 2:15 -17
Justified by Faith
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
yet we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Footnotes [1] 2:16 Or counted righteous (three times in verse 16)
Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”1
Footnotes[1] 3:11 Or The one who by faith is righteous will live
Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified1 by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Footnotes [1] 5:4 Or counted righteous
Titus 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't mean that when we commit sin we have lost salvation, but that IF we show ourselves to be "righteous" then reject Christ, we lose it.

Hi dadof10, I would like to answer this but could you clarify something for me first?

When you see the saving good works of someone that causes you to believe they are righteous, what is it exactly that you see?
There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what we see as righteous good works.

 

[dadof10]

They are showing that they truly have "saving faith". Do you agree?

I'll asnwer your question and condense mine done to one question.

That is, they [Abraham and Rahab] were once saved and now currently “saved�

I would answer your question as, Yes. That's exactly James' point. That Abraham and Rahab SHOWED their true faith which was in their case a "saving faith". I stress, as I feel James was stressing, the word "showed" their saving faith in these passages. That's exactly how I view the word "justfied" (see analysis below). How could it be otherwise since James just got through saying:

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.†Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(James 2:18 ESV)


I’ve done a complete Bible search for the word “Justified†and it clearly indicates to me that this word’s biblical definition is often (if not always) used within the broader topic of salvation, true. However, “justified†does not totally encompass the word “salvationâ€.
When the Bible uses “justified†I see a clear aspect within its definition of acts of “sight†(versus belief, or inward faith). And ironically ( didn’t plan this) rather clearly within its the very first usage (Job) is where I get my definition of the meaning of “justifiedâ€. It’s largely used describing physical acts that are being viewed. Which is exactly how James ends the Bibles’ use of this word and having just discussed the “acts†of fine clothes versus dirty closes specifically and clearly says that you just cannot “judge a book by its coverâ€.
Anyway, here’s the listing:
Job 32:2 Then Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned with anger. He burned with anger at Job because he justified himself rather than God.
Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.

Isaiah 45:25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.â€
Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.â€
Matthew 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.â€
Luke 7:35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.â€
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.â€
Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Romans 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.†[From Ps 51]

Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being1 will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Footnotes: [1] 3:20 Greek flesh
Romans 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 4:1-2 Abraham Justified by Faith
What then shall we say was gained by1 Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 2:15 -17
Justified by Faith
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
yet we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Footnotes [1] 2:16 Or counted righteous (three times in verse 16)
Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.â€1
Footnotes[1] 3:11 Or The one who by faith is righteous will live
Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified1 by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Footnotes [1] 5:4 Or counted righteous
Titus 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

OK great. Now, once a person shows his true faith, it can NEVER be said that "he was never saved in the first place" because he has shown his true faith. Do you agree?

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[chessman]

[MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION] Do you think Abraham is in Abraham's bosom? Rahab too?

 

[dadof10]

I don't mean that when we commit sin we have lost salvation, but that IF we show ourselves to be "righteous" then reject Christ, we lose it.

Hi dadof10, I would like to answer this but could you clarify something for me first?

When you see the saving good works of someone that causes you to believe they are righteous, what is it exactly that you see?
There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what we see as righteous good works.

I really don't know, Allen. James uses three examples, two pretty heroic and one pretty ordinary. I suppose its more of a lifestyle instead of counting good deeds. Like I said before. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

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[dadof10]

[MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION] Do you think Abraham is in Abraham's bosom? Rahab too?

I don't know that much about Abraham's bosom or whether it still exists after the resurrection. I'm traveling now so I can't look it up. Do you think it still exists?

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