The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Alabaster]

Quite certainly Christ did not bear the sins of them He never Knew.

He bare the sins of many heb 9:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It does not say " to bear the sins of all without exception "

You are arguing with the truth of the word of God:

1 John 2:2
He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.


You need to stop, now that you have been corrected.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Those who teach that Christ died for all without exception, they are teaching the lie, that even those he became a curse for as per gal 3:

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.â€[a]

That some of them he will yet pronounced cursed before ordering them into everlasting fire matt 25:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


That's a false teaching..For Christ did not die for such ones..
​

 

[Alabaster]

Those who teach that Christ died for all without exception, they are teaching the lie, that even those he became a curse for as per gal 3:

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[a]

That some of them he will yet pronounced cursed before ordering them into everlasting fire matt 25:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


That's a false teaching..For Christ did not die for such ones..
​

Defeat this verse--prove it is false!

1 John 2:2
He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

CASE CLOSED.

 

[Strangelove]

Defeat this verse--prove it is false!

1 John 2:2
He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

CASE CLOSED.

BOOM!

You just got Alabastered!

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: The Myth of saying that God Loved everyone without exception !

Jn 3 16 tells us of God's Love for the world, but never specifically states that God loved all mankind as individuals without exception, that has been read into the text by those who care little about the Truth of God.

And such a verse as Jn 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Must and should be explained by other verses of scripture that speaks on the same subject as God's Love of People.

First lets look at at an OT scripture that speaks to God's Love to a People deut 7:

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

We find here something extremely important about an immutable God and His Love. That God's Love is set upon a people He chooses look at deut 7:

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Notice too that His Love is set upon the fewest of all people.. This should be a big eye opener for us, God Loves not the masses of mankind, for those He Loves are the few of mankind.

Remember Jesus stated about finding the road that leads to life that few find it Matt 7:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Those few, are and will be those God Loved.. So God so loved the world, means He loved a few , chosen ones in the world, His own special ones.

Jn 13:1

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

The jews would have known from deut 7 that God's Love was exclusive for only some, but what they did not know was that some was not limited to them, for God loved some as well of different people groups, outside of their race; but His Love was nevertheless limited to a certain people, but just not to a limited location or race, it was the world at large that this special loved and certain people would be located..
​

 

[Strangelove]

Sounds like salvation by works, no? How can any man do "good?"

On the other hand, men are not as evil as they could be. God restrains sin, even the sin of those not predestined, and that is "good."

He's not getting saved. He's not predestined. We've established that. He's just loving his wife more becasue he thinks Jesus is cool...and a good example. Has Jesus's death ahd a positive effect on his life yes or no?

If an unsaved man proclaims a gospel he does not believe, how is that the effect of the atonement?

It isn't. It's got nothing to do with atonement. Jesus died. The Gospels were written, and this guy happens to be preaching them....even though he's not pre-destined for salvation. None of this would have happened if Jesus hadn't died.

Is this a good or a bad thing? That this man is preaching the Word of God due to Christs death?

Is it possible that Christs death can have a positive effect on those who are not His sheep. Can you just answer that?

If you duck my questions again I'm gonna bail on this thread for the second time.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God's Love exclusive to His Chosen in Christ !

Its God's Love that moved Him to choose His People in Christ and make them a special people above all others deut 14:

2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

This is a exclusive Love for His chosen ! The Chosen are all those regardless of race, who were Chosen in Christ before the foundation eph 1:


4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God Loved His People so much, He ensured that they will be made Holy and Without blame before Him in Love.. Thats what God's Love does, it ensures this outcome..

 

[mondar]

He's not getting saved. He's not predestined. We've established that. He's just loving his wife more becasue he thinks Jesus is cool...and a good example. Has Jesus's death ahd a positive effect on his life yes or no?



It isn't. It's got nothing to do with atonement. Jesus died. The Gospels were written, and this guy happens to be preaching them....even though he's not pre-destined for salvation. None of this would have happened if Jesus hadn't died.

Is this a good or a bad thing? That this man is preaching the Word of God due to Christs death?

Is it possible that Christs death can have a positive effect on those who are not His sheep. Can you just answer that?

If you duck my questions again I'm gonna bail on this thread for the second time.

I am not ducking your questions. However, you completely ignored the first questions I asked and just asked questions of your own. Worse, your questions seem to muddy the waters of the conversation. I cannot help but think that you do not understand the conversation. We are talking about the "benefits of the atonement. By the term, I am not talking about some person that "thinks Jesus is cool...and a good example." I am talking about something that God does does for man based upon the shed blood of Christ. You want to look at the term "benefits" as something that just kinda happens by coincidence when an unbeliever does something that you call "good."

We do not even agree on the term "good." Something good has merit in the sight of God. There is nothing that man does that is good in the sight of God. This is not to say a mother does not love her children, and there is a sense that such behavior is natural. I do not say we are raving beasts who run the woods and kill each other. We are not that evil, but we are not "good."

The man who witnesses and testifies of Christ is evil. He is testifying of something he does not believe is a hypocrite. How can I call that good?

As far as you wanting to quit the conversation. Please feel free. I see no sense in anything you are asking. It is just a dog trail getting off the subject.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God does not Love all men without exception ! He Loved His Church World !

So, we see specifically that God's Love causes Him to choose a people. That would lead us to understand, that the world of Jn 3 16 consist of those so loved and Chosen of God..

Gods Love = Chosen ones to be recipients and benefactors of it.

Those God Loved, also is specifically designated His Church eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now, is the church everyone in the world without exception ? It would be foolish to say yes to that question..

The word church is the greek word

ek klēsia:

It simply means to call out, the called out ones..

1 pet 2:

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The church has been called out of darkness, and secondly, into His Marvelous light..

Its not a half done process. Its a calling out of and into.

These are the objects of God's Love in the world, the called out ones, the Church of Jesus Christ.

Paul calls them the called as in ROM 1:6

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

ROM 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

ROM 9:24

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Now nowhere in scripture can these things apply to all mankind without exception.

The world that God Loved is a called world. Remember one of the definitions for the word world kosmos is:

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

So the called of Jesus Christ as in ROM 1:6

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

So the collection of the called of Jesus Christ is a world !

This just simply cannot be denied !​

 

[mondar]

Some would not consider themselves to be "a rebel", if they just disagree with what some men claim as being "a reality". This is my main point of several topics I've been on. IF your interpretation of god is actually correct, I may be punished for my inability to see value in creating vessels of destruction that have no say in it. However, I would choose to believe that if a truly righteous judge [one who judges fairly] listened to my case, this judge would see that see the heart of one who is being honest with true feelings, and take that into account.

Excuse me for talking like a teenager here, but I was just listening to Phil Colins old song, "another day in paradise."
--- It is about a woman who cries out, "sir, can you help me....its cold outside and there's no place to sleep..... he walks on and does not look back, he pretends he cannot hear her."

Was the man evil? Could he harden himself to the suffering of others in a chance meeting on the street? Phil Colins song makes me think of the parable of the good Samaritan. It was the self-righteous priest that walked past the Samaritan. Yes, the priest was a "good man." But he had the hardness of heart to walk past as though he could not hear.

Deavonreye, one of the things happening, is you and I will never agree on the nature of man. There are no good men. The so called "good men" are the priest in the parable, and the man in paradise in Phil Colins song. Yes, we are not all raging beasts there are some that are only a little bad. There are some very evil men, and some that only harden there own hearts when they are inconvenienced by someone the need of someone else (such as the woman who was cold). You will always have your Hitlers, your Stalins, your very evil men to look at and say "I am not that bad." Maybe your not that bad, but you are not good. There are no good men, only varying shades of bad.

Oh yes, you a rebel, yes you are. You can do those small little things, those harsh words, those things motivated by selfishness. Yet you will go on and presuppose the nature of man as innocent? Why will you do this? Your a rebel. We all have our rebellion, our defiance of God and his will. We all need forgiveness. Some for great things, some for that small hardness of heart. God will judge us all. We are all guilty. Rebellion? Your rebellion might not be like Hitlers, maybe you just walk past the woman on the street.

I happen to disagree with an ideology of man that CLAIMS to have come from god. I've not seen good reason to believe that TO be the case, and to be honest, most of the things found in the bible seem more akin to human thoughts.

I am not sure what you mean.... "come from God." We are a creation of God, like the rest of the universe, like the angels. In that sense we all "come from God." But we are not all sons of God, or are directly related to him.

And yes, I know you don't believe the bible and claim to be an atheist. Of course you must say that... if you are an atheist, your naturalistic philosophy does not allow for the supernatural. If you are a true atheist, your consider anti-super-naturalism to be an axiomatic truth.

Of course, the obvious question is how can you know that there is no supernatural? We can talk more about that later, I have to go.

 

[Strangelove]

I am not ducking your questions. However, you completely ignored the first questions I asked and just asked questions of your own. Worse, your questions seem to muddy the waters of the conversation. I cannot help but think that you do not understand the conversation. We are talking about the "benefits of the atonement. By the term, I am not talking about some person that "thinks Jesus is cool...and a good example." I am talking about something that God does does for man based upon the shed blood of Christ. You want to look at the term "benefits" as something that just kinda happens by coincidence when an unbeliever does something that you call "good."

We do not even agree on the term "good." Something good has merit in the sight of God. There is nothing that man does that is good in the sight of God. This is not to say a mother does not love her children, and there is a sense that such behavior is natural. I do not say we are raving beasts who run the woods and kill each other. We are not that evil, but we are not "good."

The man who witnesses and testifies of Christ is evil. He is testifying of something he does not believe is a hypocrite. How can I call that good?

As far as you wanting to quit the conversation. Please feel free. I see no sense in anything you are asking. It is just a dog trail getting off the subject.

I don't care if you are talking about atonement. The title of the thread is 'The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception!'.....Theres no mention of atonement or Salvation there.....and I'm proving the title WRONG because if Jesus' death can have a positive effect on any man then He died for all men. Full stop. End of story.

You don't want to answer the questions coz you know I'm right.

Yet again the super-elitist-Hyper-Calvanists have proved that it's impossible to have a conversation with them.

Bye.

 

[mondar]

I don't care if you are talking about atonement. The title of the thread is 'The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception!'.....Theres no mention of atonement or Salvation there.....and I'm proving the title WRONG because if Jesus' death can have a positive effect on any man then He died for all men. Full stop. End of story.

You don't want to answer the questions coz you know I'm right.

Yet again the super-elitist-Hyper-Calvanists have proved that it's impossible to have a conversation with them.

Bye.

So the phrase "Jesus Christ died" as nothing to do with the atonement? I believe the person that created the OP was SBG. So you think when he made the title, and posted the OP, in his mind it had nothing to do with Salvation or Atonement?

 

[Strangelove]

So the phrase "Jesus Christ died" as nothing to do with the atonement?

Well it has nothing to do with atonement for the non-predestined does it! Lolz.

Yet the fact that he died still has an effect on those people. In many instances a very positive effect. For example those non-believers who use Christs teachings as a template of how to live their life. And those teachings would never have been so widespread had Jesus not died on the cross the way he did.

So Jesus DID die for all people. So the title of the thread is wrong. It's not a myth.

So you can either agree to that and go off and make a thread called 'The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for the Salvation of all men without exception!' (and as a Hypo-Calvinist I would be the first person to drop in with supporting comments) or you can continue to dodge the obvious truth that I'm presenting you with.

Doc.

I believe the person that created the OP was SBG. So you think when he made the title, and posted the OP, in his mind it had nothing to do with Salvation or Atonement?

P.S. I'm not a mind reader.

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

So Jesus DID die for all people.

No He did not. For all the people Christ died for, shall be made righteous ! rom 5:

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Certainly these will not have been made righteous 1 cor 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

So Christ death did absolutely nothing for them..

 

[Strangelove]

No He did not. For all the people Christ died for, shall be made righteous ! rom 5:

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Certainly these will not have been made righteous 1 cor 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

So Christ death did absolutely nothing for them..

Just because His obediance (which is not even His death) didn't make some righteous, doesnt mean it didn't do anything for them.

Tell me something. Are unsaved people even capable of loving, in your opinion?

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

Just because His obediance (which is not even His death)

It is His death phil 2:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And His death did nothing for them..

 

[Strangelove]

It is His death phil 2:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And His death did nothing for them..

So you think by underlining two words it makes those words the same?

obedient unto death.

That means obedient till death.

Are non-predestined people even capable of loving, in your opinion?

 

[savedbygrace57]

strange:

So you think by underlining two words it makes those words the same?

Its not what I think, its what I showed you the bible says. Now you show me otherwise, show me in the bible where it says Christ death does not mean His obedience. I'll be waiting..

 

[Strangelove]

Its not what I think, its what I showed you the bible says. Now you show me otherwise, show me in the bible where it says Christ death does not mean His obedience. I'll be waiting..

Oh so again your demanding EXACT wording (of your choice) in the bible! Lolz! Playing the same game as the start of the thread.

Show me in the bible where it says Christs death means obedience. I want these exact words. Not obediance unto death. 'Unto' doesnt equal 'means'. I'll be waiting too.

Are non-predestined people even capable of loving, in your opinion?

Still waiting for an answer on that one.

 

[Alabaster]

Oh so again your demanding EXACT wording (of your choice) in the bible! Lolz! Playing the same game as the start of the thread.

Show me in the bible where it says Christs death means obedience. I want these exact words. Not obediance unto death. 'Unto' doesnt equal 'means'. I'll be waiting too.

Philippians 2:8
he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

Jesus' death on the cross was a supreme act of obedience.

Are non-predestined people even capable of loving, in your opinion?

Still waiting for an answer on that one.

Those whom God knows beforehand who will reject His offer of salvation can certainly love. It is a function of our psyche. However, unbelievers int heir great capacity for human love cannot love the way God does, which is a dimension of our life in Christ that they cannot share.

The kind of love that comes out of knowing God is effortless. It is actually Jesus Christ loving others through us. He cannot do that through a heart that is closed to Him.