The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Deborah13]

mark



And the all men God desires to be saved shall be saved !

So let me ask you a question.

If God created ALL men but has only chosen some to be saved and the others He created to not be saved...then how could He judge those unchosen ones who He made to be unchosen?
He would be judging Himself?

Therefore, a just God could not judge a evil man because God created him without the ability to choose to be any different? Therefore, ALL men must be saved?

I see this doctrine promoting ....guess what?

 

[Agape]

If God created ALL men but has only chosen some to be saved and the others He created to not be saved...then how could He judge those unchosen ones who He made to be unchosen?
He would be judging Himself?

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.†16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.†18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
(Romans 9:14-21)

 

[savedbygrace57]

deb

So let me ask you a question.

No, you are evading my points that I have made. You first address my points made in posts 1449, and 1487. Please explain my points and why you obviously disagree with them, for they are founded upon scripture !

 

[ezra]

jc



Yes it is, and I have given ample evidence in this thread !

yes you have given us YOUR scriptures i will say one thing you been taught well as everybody who believes in Calvinism .uses the same scripture the same answer every time....but here is the deal i have given scripture along with how i believe.. yet you say Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception. i really have a hard time understanding how you can over look the words who so ever or all or how God so Loved the World.. you take grace and make it sound like the lottery or the price is right. which in reality the price has been fully paid. the divine invitation stands for all who will accept. no its not a pick or choose like when we go to burger king. the Holy Spirit is drawing all men to Christ. problem is in our world today not many are willing to accept.

 

[Deborah13]

Good post Mark

 

[Agape]

but here is the deal i have given scripture along with how i believe.. yet you say Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception. i really have a hard time understanding how you can over look the words who so ever or all or how God so Loved the World..

Ezra, if you say that you will hire whoever is most qualified, does that mean you are hiring everyone?
"Whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish" cannot possibly be replaced by "all will not perish". Only those who believe in Jesus will not perish and Christ died for them, who believe in Him.
Therefore the scriptures you quoted do not support the doctrine OP has been countering in this thread. We need to acknowledge all that the Bible teaches. We cannot possibly ignore certain scriptures because we don't like'em or it may contradict the point we want to make. Savedbygrace did not use HIS scriptures as you stated in your post, but The Scriptures, the Word of God.

Teaching that Christ died for all is not really a myth but a doctrine, namely the doctrine of unlimited atonement (http://www.gotquestions.org/unlimited-atonement.html)
Teaching that Christ died for all means that His death was a potential atonement that becomes actual when we repent and believe. So, the atonement is "up to us". We become the "decision-makers". It also means that non-believers go to hell with sins actually atoned for. This I cannot accept.

 

[ezra]

Ezra, if you say that you will hire whoever is most qualified, does that mean you are hiring everyone?
"Whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish" cannot possibly be replaced by "all will not perish". Only those who believe in Jesus will not perish and Christ died for them, who believe in Him.
Therefore the scriptures you quoted do not support the doctrine OP has been countering in this thread. We need to acknowledge all that the Bible teaches. We cannot possibly ignore certain scriptures because we don't like'em or it may contradict the point we want to make. Savedbygrace did not use HIS scriptures as you stated in your post, but The Scriptures, the Word of God.

Teaching that Christ died for all is not really a myth but a doctrine, namely the doctrine of unlimited atonement (http://www.gotquestions.org/unlimited-atonement.html)
epent and believeTeaching that Christ died for all means that His death was a potential atonement that becomes actual when we r. So, the atonement is "up to us". We become the "decision-makers". It also means that non-believers go to hell with sins actually atoned for. This I cannot accept.

i been down this road many times --i don't need a Webb page to explain to me. the decision to accept when he calls is up to us to accept. if i invite you to supper. you have to accept. when Christ calls us you either except or reject the invitation . " So, the atonement is "up to us"." your words not mine.............

It also means that non-believers go to hell with sins actually atoned for. This I cannot accept

i doubt i lose sleep over this. as i said i been down this road before ..i stand my ground

Ezra, if you say that you will hire whoever is most qualified, does that mean you are hiring everyone?

Grace is not hiring its the free gift

 

[Agape]

Grace is not hiring its the free gift

That's right, but the reason why I gave you that example was that I was under the impression that you did not make a distinction between the scripture you quoted and that reads "whosoever" and your interpretation that says "all". I was contrasting "all" with "whosoever", not suggesting that grace was like hiring.

if i invite you to supper. you have to accept

Of course not! And that's the difference between us and the Lord. We are the clay, He is the potter.

when Christ calls us you either except or reject the invitation

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (2 Timothy 1:8-9)

i doubt i lose sleep over this. as i said i been down this road before ..i stand my ground

God bless!

 

[JLB]

Ezra, if you say that you will hire whoever is most qualified, does that mean you are hiring everyone?
"Whosoever believes in Jesus will not perish" cannot possibly be replaced by "all will not perish". Only those who believe in Jesus will not perish and Christ died for them, who believe in Him.
Therefore the scriptures you quoted do not support the doctrine OP has been countering in this thread. We need to acknowledge all that the Bible teaches. We cannot possibly ignore certain scriptures because we don't like'em or it may contradict the point we want to make. Savedbygrace did not use HIS scriptures as you stated in your post, but The Scriptures, the Word of God.

Teaching that Christ died for all is not really a myth but a doctrine, namely the doctrine of unlimited atonement (http://www.gotquestions.org/unlimited-atonement.html)
Teaching that Christ died for all means that His death was a potential atonement that becomes actual when we repent and believe. So, the atonement is "up to us". We become the "decision-makers". It also means that non-believers go to hell with sins actually atoned for. This I cannot accept.

It also means that non-believers go to hell with sins actually atoned for. This I cannot accept.

More correctly it means those who don't believe the price for their sins have been paid by Jesus Christ, don't call upon Him to save them and consequently they go to hell.

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? Romans 10:13-14


JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

ezra

yet you say Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without
exception.

Yes it is, and I have given reasons why all throughout this Thread ! Reasons you have not addressed at any time !

 

[ezra]

ezra



Yes it is, and I have given reasons why all throughout this Thread ! Reasons you have not addressed at any time !

Hebrews 2 : 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone .

Bringing Many Sons to Glory

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory , to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. call it myth call it what you want i call it fact

 

[ezra]

More correctly it means those who don't believe the price for their sins have been paid by Jesus Christ, don't call upon Him to save them and consequently they go to hell.

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? Romans 10:13-14


JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

ezra

Hebrews 2 : 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels,
for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace
of God, might taste death for everyone
.

He did Taste Death for everyone He died for. I have no problem with that verse !

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Neither view is correct. Those who insist that if Jesus died for all men refuse to consider that there is at least a portion of the salvation process dependent upon a true and sincere confession of Christ as Savior. That requires free will, though it will not be active (in my opinion) until the Holy Spirit opens the heart and mind to His truth.

Those who insist Christ's death on the cross was sufficient for all refuse to consider that there are those who will never, ever, in any way, shape or form, consider Christ, and God through the Holy Spirit knows there is no point in calling them.

 

[ezra]

Neither view is correct. Those who insist that if Jesus died for all men refuse to consider that there is at least a portion of the salvation process dependent upon a true and sincere confession of Christ as Savior. That requires free will, though it will not be active (in my opinion) until the Holy Spirit opens the heart and mind to His truth.

Those who insist Christ's death on the cross was sufficient for all refuse to consider that there are those who will never, ever, in any way, shape or form, consider Christ, and God through the Holy Spirit knows there is no point in calling them.

i have no problem with how you worded it.. i am in no way implying a universal salvation. the Bible plainly says not every one will be saved ...........

knows there is no point in calling them.

while there can be a point he will turn some over to a reprobate mind.. no body know when that is..i do believe in a death bed salvation..i call this the 11th hour salvation.. as long as there is breath and a mind of understanding there is hope till we draw our last breath. while i do not suggest this because some deaths are sudden .

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

i have no problem with how you worded it.. i am in no way implying a universal salvation. the Bible plainly says not every one will be saved ........... while there can be a point he will turn some over to a reprobate mind.. no body know when that is..i do believe in a death bed salvation..i call this the 11th hour salvation.. as long as there is breath and a mind of understanding there is hope till we draw our last breath. while i do not suggest this because some deaths are sudden .

Regardless, no one is created to perish. That is an errant assumption based on a biblical misinterpretation.

 

[ezra]

yes you are sooooooooooo right

 

[savedbygrace57]

thisn

Those who insist that if Jesus died for all men refuse to consider that there
is at least a portion of the salvation process dependent upon a true and sincere
confession of Christ as Savior.

Thats works salvation !

 

[Agape]

More correctly it means those who don't believe the price for their sins have been paid by Jesus Christ, don't call upon Him to save them and consequently they go to hell.

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? Romans 10:13-14


JLB

More correctly?

In Romans 10:13, Paul quotes Joel 2:32 and that verse starts with "for".

1) Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

2) Verse 13 starts with "For" and thus it refers back to verse 12

Romans 10:12 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him"

This verse 14 you partly colored in red begins a sequence of three questions and I don't understand why you dropped the other two? That changed the context again.

Let me quote Romans 10:14 in full.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?

-- We cannot call on Him whom we don't believe
-- We cannot believe in Him of whom we have not heard
-- We cannot hear about Him without a preacher

These steps (sending preachers, hearing and believing) are necessary for salvation. So, if there are no preachers so that men can hear and believe, they can't be saved!
In Romans 10:11-3, Paul emphasizes the universal offer of salvation (for both Jews and Gentiles). Then, from verse 14 thru 21 Paul demonstrates that there is no excuse for Israel’s unbelief.

But before quoting the first question in verse 14, you stated " More correctly it means those who don't believe the price for their sins have been paid by Jesus Christ, don't call upon Him to save them and consequently they go to hell."

Now, tell me please how did you get to that interpretation and what do you mean by "more correctly"?

 

[MarkT]

mark



And the all men God desires to be saved shall be saved !

That's right. God creates men for destruction and for salvation and those that are meant for salvation will be saved. God creates men for his own purpose and he can do anything he wants with them. However something very special has happened. Through Jesus Christ, we have gained access to the Father. Wow! We can actually petition God to save men. That's incredible if you think about it.

While anything is possible with God, I believe what Jesus prophesied is what will be. So I agree, Jesus died for his sheep and he will not lose any. That's certainly good to know that we are in our Father's hand and no one can snatch us away from him. However, if God and Christ are at home in you, it follows that you should have the desire to save all. As Paul said, 'God our Saviour desires all men to be saved.' So if that is true, the desire to save all men should be in you. If you are his sheep. Jesus even went down to preach to the spirits in prison ie. the Sodomites, presumably to save some of them.

That doesn't preclude my feeling like striking out when men trespass against me. But vengeance is the Lord's. Still I pray for those who have shown me kindness, that the Father will save them on my account. So we should do, so I believe, since we have access to the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ, if it be the Father''s will that he will save some of them. As Paul said, 'it is good and acceptable'.

If you are his, then remember, your righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and the Pharisees. Mt. 5:20 Don't start acting like them, boasting of your standing before God and saluting only your brethren. Our Father who is in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.