The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

where is the limitation here.

Its limited to those in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Everyone in the World without exception are not God's Chosen. God has only had One Chosen People, and he speaks of their Redemption here also

That this Redemption God provides is for only for a Elect People is seen in the OT Scriptures, which gives a Divine Command Ps 130:7-8

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

This is the Redemption the old Saint referred to here Lk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

 

[Cassian]

Its limited to those in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Everyone in the World without exception are not God's Chosen. God has only had One Chosen People, and he speaks of their Redemption here also

You are right, scripture teaches that all men were redeemed so that God could call out everyone. Everyone would have the opportunity to believe, to accept that call.

That this Redemption God provides is for only for a Elect People is seen in the OT Scriptures, which gives a Divine Command Ps 130:7-8

It's purpose is to have the elect. But in order to have even ONE elect, ALL MEN, must first be given life, be given an eternal existance. Man lost that eternal existance through the fall. It would be absurd that God would only have a union with man on this earth and then man would die and cease to exist. God created man to have an eternal union with Him. All men. God is not a respector of persons. God created all men to have and eternal union with Him. But God did not create man to be IN Him. God created man free, able to freely choose to return His love, to freely obey Him, freely commune with Him.

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

Yes, God had mercy upon all, Rom 11:32, and indeed has plenteous redemption. Complete redemption of His created order from death. You seem to constantly forget what Christ's purpose was in the first place.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

This is the Redemption the old Saint referred to here Lk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

He atoned for the sin of the world. The sacrifice of Christ cannot differentiate sin. If Christ atoned for one sin, He atoned for all sin. Never does scripture ever put a limitation on that atonement. There is never a list of kinds of sin, or only some sin, or only some select groups sin. It is all sin period.

Again, the purpose was for God to again have union with man, but to do so, Christ needed to overcome death and sin. He did it for everyone. But it is the sole choice of each individual to respond to the call that God gives to every man.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God only pardons those He has reserved !

Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

This also speaks to Particular Redemption, for Pardon comes through Redemption as Per Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

The word forgiveness is the greek word aphesis:

release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

And of course we know Eph 1:7 is speaking of the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4

Mich 7:18

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

You see, pardoneth of the remnant, not all mankind, and this is speaking of God's Mercy, but its restricted, and so Paul writes Rom 9:18

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

He is particular about who He has mercy and pardon on !

Rom 11:4

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

You see that ? I have reserved to myself ! Thats God's Freewill doing that !

We never truly worship the True God of Heaven until we understand this !

 

[Cassian]

savedbygrace57,

Jer 50:20
In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
This also speaks to Particular Redemption, for Pardon comes through Redemption as Per Eph 1:7
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The word forgiveness is the greek word aphesis:
release from bondage or imprisonment

Pardon does NOT come through redemption. Pardon comes as a result of redemption and because of repentance..

vs 7 is tell us that all men have redemption through His Blood and the forgiveness of sin, all because of his grace. Because God redeemed all men, atoned for sin, God can call all men to repentance. If they repent, He will pardon them or forgive them their sin. NO sin is pardoned unilaterally by Christ. It is ONLY by repentance and confession.

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
And of course we know Eph 1:7 is speaking of the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4

Paul is directing the statement to believers but Christ did not just redeem some men, nor atone for some sin. All men can believe and become part of the elect. They become part of the elect by faith, repentance and baptism.

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

You see, pardoneth of the remnant, not all mankind, and this is speaking of God's Mercy, but its restricted, and so Paul writes Rom 9:18

nobody has claimed God pardoned all sin or all sin of all of mankind. Pardon only occurs if one repents and then is pardoned of those sins.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
He is particular about who He has mercy and pardon on !

again you lift a verse out of context to seemingly support and errant view again. Paul is making a point in his argument with the Judaizers that it is not they that determine who Christ would saved. That choice is all of God. But the actual mercy that God gave in that context is all men were given mercy. Rom 11:32. God chose to show mercy to all men.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
You see that ? I have reserved to myself ! Thats God's Freewill doing that !
We never truly worship the True God of Heaven until we understand this !

you are taking contexts that have nothing to do with individual salvation. YOur error is doing so is to think that scripture has Christ saving individuals from the cRoss. Christ does not save a single individual soul from the Cross. He abolishes death for the world, and atoned for sin.

Individual salvation is by and through faith. The Cross makes the relationship between God and man possible again, man lost that possibility with the fall of Adam.

 

[savedbygrace57]

That Jesus did not come to save all men without exception, nor to call them to Himself, is plainly intimated here Lk 5:32

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

There is a certain segment that He did not come to call to Himself. His Purpose for them was to make blind, or to confirm them in their delusions John 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

This verse alone should convince us that some are made vessels of wrath to be fitted for destruction ! The others, He came that they might see, in other words, the Children of the Covenant will have their blind spiritual eyes opened to See Jesus as their Saviour ! Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

 

[Cassian]

That Jesus did not come to save all men without exception, nor to call them to Himself, is plainly intimated here Lk 5:32

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

There is a certain segment that He did not come to call to Himself. His Purpose for them was to make blind, or to confirm them in their delusions John 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

This verse alone should convince us that some are made vessels of wrath to be fitted for destruction ! The others, He came that they might see, in other words, the Children of the Covenant will have their blind spiritual eyes opened to See Jesus as their Saviour ! Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Your comments are again directed at the incorrect aspect of our salvation. The topic at hand is about what Christ did on the Cross, not the purpose of that work.

These texts you are quoting are all about the result of His work on the Cross respective of how man sees Him. Christ came to give light, illumination. All men will be so illumined, John 1:9. What does light do? For some it clears vision and they see, in this case see and believe as the blind man saw both physically and spiritually.

But for others the light is to bright, they prefer darkness. In other words man will also close his eyes to the Truth. Does Christ close their eyes, NO, but did He give light that caused men to close their eyes. Yes. Now, read the texts again with the correct suppositions and meaning.

this is the meaning of the word "judgement" in vs 39. God gives to every man all the chance, every tool needed, to see and believe. But man makes the choice. Some see and beleive, others desire darkness, cannot stand the light, it becomes blinding. The same will be the perception of God's love between those in heaven and those in hell.

No matter how much you twist and redefine scripture you cannot change it. Christ died for all men, saved all men from death, the condemnation we all received through Adam. Christ is not a respector of persons. That God actually chose some to be saved and all others to be dammed is a myth in scripture, though your theology teaches it.

 

[BornAgain]

No matter how much you twist and redefine scripture you cannot change it. Christ died for all men, saved all men from death, the condemnation we all received through Adam. Christ is not a respector of persons. That God actually chose some to be saved and all others to be dammed is a myth in scripture, though your theology teaches it.

Cassian,

It is based on Calvanism a man made doctrine by John Calvin.

BA

 

[Cassian]

Cassian,

It is based on Calvanism a man made doctrine by John Calvin.

BA

Correct, but in this case it is a very extreme application of predestination and its corresponding tenents.

 

[BornAgain]

Correct, but in this case it is a very extreme application of predestination and its corresponding tenents.

There is an entire thread on predestination which I am currently researching...I think I saw you on there?

 

[savedbygrace57]

One of the many scriptures that the antichrist crowd twist to teach that Jesus Christ did die for the sins of every single individual in the world without exception is this one Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

But this scripture says nothing of the sort.

When John here spoke of Christ being that Lamb that taketh away the sin of the World, He was speaking of an Elect World, the Church of Christ in Fact of Eph 5:25, and that according to promise. Its the World of God's Elect Israel and Judah as Per Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

The World of His New Covenant People of which Christ is the Mediator of Heb 8:6-12

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Vs 12 here confirms what is promised in Jer 50:20, Their sins and iniquities will not be found, the reason why, they have been taken away by the Lamb of God Jn 1:29, the Mediator of the New Covenant Heb 8:6

The House of Israel and Judah in Heb 8:8 and Jer 50:20 are spiritually referring to the elect jews and elect gentiles, and that constitutes the World of Jn 1:29 !

 

[Cassian]

Beloved57,

If you need your theology to succeed, regardless what scripture even states, you need to develop a theory that will show that a death cannot be complete. YOu need to show that Christ's death, which was for sin, could not possibly be a complete death since you claim that Christ did not die for all sin. Can you prove that Christ died only partially, thus only some sin would have been atoned. Then you have the added predicament to show what kinds of sins He might have died for, the number of sins, and whose sins in particular. I don't see any of that evidence in scripture.

It simply states that Christ atoned for the sin of the world. He died, shed blood, to atone for sin. There is NEVER a hint of particularization of sin, or partial sins anywhere in scripture.

If you canoot do this, then it is quite obvious your whole theological perspective is false.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In Jn 17:9


Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

In and throughout this prayer of intercession, it is Christ praying to the Father, that as many as He has been given, and that He should lay down His Life in behalf of, that they receive the full benefit of it; for He having on their behalf, satisfied all of God's Law and Justice, for all their Transgressions Isa 53:5 against His Holy Law; and so it is, when He says in Jn 17:9, " I pray not for the World", meaning all mankind without exception, He is openly acknowledging that it is not for the world of mankind in general that He is to die for, and so it was not for mankind in general that He prayed that it would receive the Redemptive benefits of His Death !

 

[ezra]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the children of the devil Jn 8:44 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

ok let me guess your a Calvinist ? i guess john 3:16 has no merit either fact is he did die for all that not willing Any should perish

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by savedbygrace57,

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME"


1 Timothy 4:10 "For this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of ALL MEN - especially (Gk.=malista) of those that believe."


1 Timothy 2:2-6. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL to be testified IN DUE TIME."


1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."


1 John 4:10; 2:2 "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD"


Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL MEN."


John 1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD."


John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that THE WORLD through Him might be saved."


Colossians 1:16, 20 "For by Him were ALL THINGS created, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS: ALL THINGS were created by Him and FOR HIM: and, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be THINGS IN EARTH, or THINGS IN HEAVEN"


Acts 3:20,21 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, since the world began."

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME"


1 Timothy 4:10 "For this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of ALL MEN - especially (Gk.=malista) of those that believe."


1 Timothy 2:2-6. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL to be testified IN DUE TIME."


1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."


1 John 4:10; 2:2 "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD"


Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL MEN."


John 1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD."


John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that THE WORLD through Him might be saved."


Colossians 1:16, 20 "For by Him were ALL THINGS created, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS: ALL THINGS were created by Him and FOR HIM: and, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be THINGS IN EARTH, or THINGS IN HEAVEN"


Acts 3:20,21 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, since the world began."

You have failed to address any of the points I made, why is that ? Lets start with post 1430 and 1432 ! Please address each point and rehearse them with me !

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by savedbygrace57,

You have failed to address any of the points I made, why is that?

Well, let's look at the sequence:

Originally posted by savedbygrace57,

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof? Because it is a Myth.

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME"


1 Timothy 4:10 "For this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of ALL MEN - especially (Gk.=malista) of those that believe."


1 Timothy 2:2-6. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL to be testified IN DUE TIME."


1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."


1 John 4:10; 2:2 "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD"


Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL MEN."


John 1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD."


John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that THE WORLD through Him might be saved."


Colossians 1:16, 20 "For by Him were ALL THINGS created, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are IN EARTH, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS: ALL THINGS were created by Him and FOR HIM: and, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be THINGS IN EARTH, or THINGS IN HEAVEN"


Acts 3:20,21 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, since the world began."

Originally posted by savedbygrace57,

You have failed to address any of the points I made, why is that?

Your POINT in the post I referenced was that there was NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF. I simply provided passages from Scripture to show that your statement was inaccurate; as you, and everyone else who reads this, can clearly see.

 

[savedbygrace57]

os

Well, let's look at the sequence:

Thats not sufficient, if you cannot do better than that, keep it moving. All you did was quote something I stated, then gave me a bunch of scriptures I need to explain to show you your error. You need to start explaining the Things I have posted already, I have put in the work, you have not !

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by savedbygrace57,

Thats not sufficient

If these TEN passages from Scripture are not sufficient for you, there's nothing more I can say or do. And there's nothing "savedbygrace57" can say that will negate what the Scriptures plainly say. A five year old can understand these passages. If you insist that these verses DO NOT mean what they say; explain each verse, one by one. If not, carry on......

Cheerio

 

[savedbygrace57]

If these TEN passages from Scripture are not sufficient for you, there's nothing more I can say or do. And there's nothing "savedbygrace57" can say that will negate what the Scriptures plainly say. A five year old can understand these passages. If you insist that these verses DO NOT mean what they say; explain each verse, one by one. If not, carry on......

Cheerio

No, you have evaded my points, so you have not done what I asked, so later !

 

[Cassian]

savedbygrace57,

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof? Because it is a Myth.

They claim it because that is what has always been taught, believed, and understood from the very beginning.
You are the one that is trying to make it a myth and after a couple of years all you got so far is a statement with no evidence to prove your point. Everyone else has shown your premise is false.

No, you have evaded my points, so you have not done what I asked, so later !

You are the only one evading the points. They have all shown that the points you make are very unscriptural. YOu may not agree with them, but that does not make them evasive.
The only thing that is evasive is you. YOu are unable to directly respond, interact with anyone on your posts.
YOu cannot prove your point, nor can you make an effective refution of their counterpoints.
As another poster stated, anyone, even a child can see the error of your premise when given the refuting texts of scripture.