The New Testament Doctrine of Grace

[Drew]

Paul, the Apostle of Grace does a concise, almost personally surgical job in his dissections of these matters, showing for example that God Himself blinded the unbelievers of Israel in Romans 11:8, yet ends up saving them all anyway by Romans 11:25-32.

I certainly agree that Romans 9 -11 make a clear and inarguable case that God has indeed "hardened" most people in the nation of Israel. I believe, against most, that the "vessels of destruction" in Romans 9 are the unbelieving Jews (only) whom God has hardened. But I see no Biblical warrant to conclude that anyone is "pre-destined from birth" to ultimate loss. One can as I believe Vince has argued, assert that God hardens those who otherwise have freely chosen to reject God.

By the way, I disagree with your take on 11:25-32. I believe that, in verse 26 of that text, he uses the word "Israel" to actually refer to the church, not the nation of Israel. I say this will knowledge that in verse 25, he has used the word "Israel" to clearly refer to the nation of Israel. We can talk about that if you really want to, but I think its a bit of a peripheral issue.

 

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I certainly agree that Romans 9 -11 make a clear and inarguable case that God has indeed "hardened" most people in the nation of Israel.

No doubt. Jesus gave us clear teachings on this exact matter and 'how' that hardening transpires. It seems so simple, yet 'anyone' who says in their own heart, 'this does not happen to me' has MORE than likely had these facts already stolen from within them:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


IF we 'see' the above it is not difficult to see HOW the people of Israel are blinded or hardened and more importantly BY WHOM.

Paul states this principle concisely in Romans 11:8 where he says outright that it was GOD Himself who placed a SPIRIT OF STUPOR or SLUMBER upon them and that SPIRIT blinded them. The fact that the spirit was placed upon them makes that spirit NOT them, but that of the BLINDING ENTITY, Satan/the DEVIL.

So these matters are NOT just problems 'with the people' but the FAULT with the people, which is satan/devils.

Jesus statements are fully true and fully applicable, and NOT just to the people of Israel, but in ANY who hear Gods Words:

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Paul himself admitted that prior to his own experience, even though he was in his own mind APPROVED by God using the establishment of Israel's measures from their system, he actually was totally VOID. And he was so because of the FACTS above that Jesus taught. The SCALES of BLINDNESS literally fell from his own eyes as a testimony to the SERPENTS INDUCED BLINDNESS.

Paul's call from that point onward was to DIVIDE the people from the POWERS OF SATAN, which are a present REALITY exactly as WE SPEAK.

One may hear IF God allows them to hear. BUT most will not because of the BLINDING POWER of Satan who is stealing WORD from their hearts/minds, BLINDING them and SINNING in them in the process.

I believe, against most, that the "vessels of destruction" in Romans 9 are the unbelieving Jews (only) whom God has hardened.

Christians are way to APT to 'excuse' the intrusions OF SATAN into their OWN MINDS. Paul was clear in his depiction of the vessels of dishonour and destruction in relation to Gods Election:

"Why have you made ME thus."

Paul elaborates this fact to himself in Romans 7:17-21 where he says that EVIL was present with him when he desired to do good, that the indwelling sin was NO LONGER I and that he even had A DEVIL put upon his flesh in 2 Cor. 12:7.

Now if that is not a CLEAR representation that Paul himself was in his own lump carrying a VESSEL OF HONOUR and a VESSEL OF DISHONOUR I don't know how clearer he could have been about it.

It's just a FACT for 'everyone.'

Paul again elaborates this identical principle in 2 Tim. 2 where he states that 'believers' must PURGE THEMSELVES from the VESSEL OF DISHONOUR in order to be fit for use of God.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

One cannot 'purge themselves' from a VESSEL of dishonour if they can't even honestly acknowledge they HAVE ONE.

Paul AGAIN elabortes this IDENTICAL FACT in 1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Paul was clear that the 'purpose' of having that messenger of Satan put upon him was to INTENTIONALLY make him WEAK so that the POWER OF GOD would be upon him. Paul says again in the above that we are PLANTED IN CORRUPTION, WEAKNESS AND DISHONOUR. So no, it is NOT the 'other blinded unbelievers' or the JEWS or the whoever BUT US, it is ALL OF US as MANKIND.

To drive home the point, we know that all both SIN and HAVE SIN.

John the Apostle says this about the connection of SIN to the DEVIL:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

Believers first and foremost seem almost COMPELLED to DENY this connection and they do so BECAUSE of the fact of that OTHER POWER that IS working in them.

But I see no Biblical warrant to conclude that anyone is "pre-destined from birth" to ultimate loss. One can as I believe Vince has argued, assert that God hardens those who otherwise have freely chosen to reject God.

No DEVIL in and with MAN is going to be making a FREE WILL CHOICE to 'believe God in Christ and be TRUTHFUL.' That simply CAN NOT happen.

And no person can come OUT from UNDER that blindness unless GOD ALLOWS them to. In this present life who sees and who does not is SOLELY A MATTER OF PRESENT ELECTION.

Paul elaborates on 'present' election in Romans 11:

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It really is GODS CHOICE as to WHO will hear and the OTHER POWER will not hear no matter what. Only believers who are elect in this present life can SPEAK these facts and acknowledge them. BLINDED PEOPLE will deny to their DEATHS that 'they' have any issues with THE DEMONIC as that power IN THEM remains HIDDEN to them. Such could not show a SHRED of honesty for all the tea in china. Even as I write this I KNOW that many who read WILL SEETHE in ANGER within as that blinding power is aroused in them BY THE TRUTH OF GOD. And this too is BY DIVINE ELECTION of God raising the VESSEL OF DISHONOUR in that LUMP. There is absolutely NOTHING any man can do about this. It's a DIVINE FACT.

By the way, I disagree with your take on 11:25-32. I believe that, in verse 26 of that text, he uses the word "Israel" to actually refer to the church, not the nation of Israel.

All of Israel is noted therein, and in particular as the ENEMIES of the GOSPEL.

Romans 11:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Now one can put up this text in front of MANY and MOST will never be able to see or acknowledge that it says that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved, even those who are ENEMIES of the GOSPEL.

God in Christ CAME TO SAVE THE BLINDED, THE DEAF, The CAPTIVES. Can it be any clearer that HE ALONE is successful in the BATTLE with SATAN and DEVILS, THE blinding entities?

I say this will knowledge that in verse 25, he has used the word "Israel" to clearly refer to the nation of Israel. We can talk about that if you really want to, but I think its a bit of a peripheral issue.

Yeah, there is no sense getting into that. I believe that a true Jew is one 'in heart' whom GOD has circumcised and divided from the POWER OF EVIL, even while we are CARRYING same, JUST AS PAUL truthfully admitted for himself.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

Paul teaches in His doctrne of Grace, that it has been given some, in Christ before the world began !

2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

And that time salvation and Gods call in time depends on that fact !

 

[savedbygrace57]

chester:

I don't think that follows.

Grace teaches us, it doesn't force us.

Who is the us that grace teaches ? Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

It teaches God's elect.

 

[Drew]

IF we 'see' the above it is not difficult to see HOW the people of Israel are blinded or hardened and more importantly BY WHOM.

Well, we certainly agree that Israel was blinded and that God did it. But I suspect that I see this focused specific argument about Israel. In Romans 9 to 11, Paul is faced with the task of explaining the covenant faithfulness of God. God made all these promises to Abraham, and now it seems that the vast majority of Israel are still "on the outside", having rejected Jesus as Messiah.

Romans 9 to 11 is Paul's "defence" as to why God has indeed been faithful to his promises even though it might seem otherwise.

And one of the pillars of Paul's argument is that the way that God has fulfilled His promise to Israel is a strange and "dark" one - Israel has been hardened so that salvation can be extended to Gentiles:

Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

Now I do not deny that Paul believes that non-Jews are also hardened (Pharaoh is a clear example). But that is not what Romans 9 to 11 is about. As far as the issue of hardening is concerned, Romans 9 to 11 is focused specifically on Israel. The "vessels of destruction" are hardened Jews, and only hardened Jews.

I can provide Biblical arguments to support this take on the "vessels of destruction" -the potter metaphor is not a timeless generalization about God and human beings, it is a specifically historical argument as to how God has used a strange means to fulfill his promise that Israel will be a blessing to the nations.

 

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Well, we certainly agree that Israel was blinded and that God did it. But I suspect that I see this focused specific argument about Israel. In Romans 9 to 11, Paul is faced with the task of explaining the covenant faithfulness of God. God made all these promises to Abraham, and now it seems that the vast majority of Israel are still "on the outside", having rejected Jesus as Messiah.

Paul was clear enough about how these matters worked in relationship with himself and the Law as well. That relationship exists to this day with ANY who pick up the law. The power of SIN is proven by the LAW to exist in and with ALL mankind regardless of our 'status' of belief or non-belief and when that fact is admitted, then the fact of the involvement/connection with THE DEVIL and SIN is automatic in believer or unbeliever.

If Paul, an Apostle, had evil present, indwelling sin that was not him and even a devil then that is a clear indication of TWO VESSELS, Paul and the DEVIL.

But of course to be even able to see this with Paul means that FACT comes home to roost in EVERY person who 'can be' truthful about what they are reading. For most this will not be possible because of the FACT of the other party.

Jesus was very clear about what happens. We have Gods Words, we have mankind in whom such are sown, and we have the reactions of Satan, the Devil who enters therein to STEAL. Since we all see only IN PART and do not have 'complete' understanding, it is at the very minimum likely that ALL of us have been STOLEN from, even as believers. In addition we have John the Apostle making a very clear connection with SIN and THE DEVIL.

Make of it what you will, or should I say 'what you can?' I cannot honestly say that the TEMPTATION THOUGHTS that come into my own mind are NOT from the TEMPTER, that being THE DEVIL. So that puts the tempter WITH ME as well. I find zero value in not being truthful in this matter IF it's a fact, and I believe it IS from the testimony of THE WORDS of God in Christ.

There is no shame involved if IT'S THE TRUTH is there? I have nothing to hide from GOD. He knows what is going on.

Now I do not deny that Paul believes that non-Jews are also hardened (Pharaoh is a clear example). But that is not what Romans 9 to 11 is about. As far as the issue of hardening is concerned, Romans 9 to 11 is focused specifically on Israel. The "vessels of destruction" are hardened Jews, and only hardened Jews.

Paul was very clear in 2 Cor. 4:4 that the BLINDING comes upon ANY unbeliever by the 'god of this world' again showing the DEADLY ACCURACY of Jesus' teachings on this matter. So no, it is NOT a matter of Israel only.

IF you can place the BLINDING OF SATAN upon them, then that dictates they are NOT alone in this matter and ANOTHER entirely different entity was PUT UPON them simply by having Gods Words sown in them.

WHY do you think it is that the PHARISEES received so much SCORN from Jesus? Can't you see that it was THERE, IN THE TEMPLE where the WORD was sown? And that THEY were the FIRST TO FALL as BLINDED SLAVES?

Jesus outright addressed CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL in those men. I believe Jesus' statements there were ALSO deadly accurate. He was SPEAKING TO DEVILS in them. Satan also spoke from PETER and even ENTERED Judas. There is abundant evidence of the workings of SATAN in MANKIND and ISRAEL is our picture of these facts.

I can provide Biblical arguments to support this take on the "vessels of destruction" -the potter metaphor is not a timeless generalization about God and human beings, it is a specifically historical argument as to how God has used a strange means to fulfill his promise that Israel will be a blessing to the nations.

Spin it how you please. No one can admit the presence of a VESSEL OF DISHONOUR with themselves unless and until GOD SHOWS THEM and they believe THE WORDS OF HIS SON in these matters.

I do not deny the salvation experience of ANY BORN AGAIN claimant, but that is not ALL that goes on with 'any' person.

What was true for Paul is TRUE FOR ME. What Jesus taught is TRUE FOR ME, as distasteful as it may be. It is futile to run from facts.

s

 

[Drew]

Spin it how you please. No one can admit the presence of a VESSEL OF DISHONOUR with themselves unless and until GOD SHOWS THEM and they believe THE WORDS OF HIS SON in these matters.

This is not a question of me "spinning" anything - it is a question of honouring Paul's argument and not super-imposing our systems on what he writes.

Since you seem to think that the "vessels of destruction" are not limited to Jews, I will provide the relevant arguments.

The chapter begins with an expression of despair about Israel. Paul laments the sad state of his Jewish kinsmen:

who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and (the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5whose are (L)the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, (O)God (P)blessed forever. Amen. 6But it is not as though the word of God has failed…

The implied question through the reference to the word of God is this: “Has God failed to live up to His promises to national Israel, given that their present rejection of Jesus places them outside the new covenant family?â€. This is clearly a question about Israel - Paul is observing that despite the many promises made to the Jewish nation, they largely sit outside the covenant family.

Note that the questions of verses 14 and 19 can been seen as re-formulation of precisely this question, expressed in the context of examples about God making choices, and leading back to a conclusion about the Israel problem. On such a view, the basic template of what Paul is doing is this:

1. Introduce the problem – the sad state of Israel;

2. Point out that all these promises were made to Israel, literally begging the reader to ask: “Has God been fair to Israel?â€

3. Give some examples of God making choices (Jacob, Esau, Pharaoh) to illustrate that God has the right to make the choices He makes even if they do not seem fair.

4. Having established (through these examples) that God has a right to make choices, return to the Israel problem and assert, through the potter metaphor, that God has the right to do what He wants with Israel, and explaining how the hardening of Israel has benefited the world.

Now, how would a potter metaphor addressing individual election, with no Israel specificity whatsoever, be any kind of answer to the Israel problem, the problem that Paul has actually raised, even though, mysteriously, many readers seem to think the question is one of personal pre-destination (in general). On the other hand, if the vessels of destruction is unbelieving Israel, the answer can be seen to be “God can do whatever He wants with national Israel, just like the potter has the right to mold a pot as he sees fitâ€. In this respect, a point that is often missed is that every single Old Testament use of the potter metaphors is specifically about God’s treatment of Israel, not humanity in general.

In conclusion, the view that the vessels of destruction are hardened Jews, and Jews only, is a perfectly coherent assertion given the questions and concerns that Paul has actually put on the table – questions and concerns about the sad state of Israel. A conclusion that the vessels are both Jew and Gentile – is entirely irrelevant to such questions. Unless we assume that Paul has lost control of his argument, the standard “pre-destination of individuals†interpretation of the potter metaphor is thrown into great doubt.

 

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The 'god of this world' is a mind blinder of both Jew or Gentile unbelievers Drew.

your formula above has exactly zero accounting for that working or the 'god of this world' who is obviously within the minds of those so blinded and is NOT THEM and is also obviously a 'vessel of dishonour.'

You can certainly be led to continue to blame only Jews. I have no need for such sights. They are all taught in the scriptures to be Gods children. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6 and Matt. 23:9 are the verifications. They are not 'vessels of dishonour, particularly when we see the blinder upon them.

And of course the connection of sin to the DEVIL in any believer can be denied as well. I have no use for such sights when the testimony of scripture is clear.

enjoy!

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[Drew]

The 'god of this world' is a mind blinder of both Jew or Gentile unbelievers Drew.

No one, least of all me, has stated otherwise.

But the fact that this is so does not mean that in Romans 9-11, Paul is necessarily making an argument about all people. As I think can be clearly shown, in Romans 9-11, he is specifically focused on the hardening of the Jew for the benefit of the Gentile. You have not engaged the content of my argument to this effect.

your formula above has exactly zero accounting for that working or the 'god of this world' who is obviously within the minds of those so blinded and is NOT THEM and is also obviously a 'vessel of dishonour.'

Again, the fact that God hardens people in general does not mean that Paul is prohibited from making an argument about how God has hardened Jews in order to save Gentiles - which is clearly what he is doing in Romans 9 to 11.

You can certainly be led to continue to blame only Jews.

Please read carefully. I never posted anything that suggested that Jews are being "blamed" for anything. I am only following Paul - in Romans 9 to 11 he argues that God has hardened the Jew for the benefit of the Gentile. There is mountains of exegetical evidence for this - the middle to later bits of Romans 11 are as about clear as one could want - Jewish "branches" have been broken off so that Gentiles can be grafted in:

You {***Gentiles by obvious context} will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted.

I do not think I can be more clear than I have already been: When I assert that, in Romans 9 to 11, Paul is making a case about the hardening of Jews, and invoking the potter image which in the Old Testament is always about God's right to "mold" Israel, I am not, repeat not, saying that never hardens other people.

Do you want more arguments as to why the "vessels of destruction" must be Jews and only Jews?

We should already suspect this based on the fact that Paul introduces the 9 to 11 block with a lament over, yes, Israel. So when Paul talks about vessels of destruction a few breaths later, there is every reason to suppose that these vessels are the very Jews over whom he laments.

 

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No one, least of all me, has stated otherwise.

Great. On that basis alone it shows mankind is not alone in their unbelief.

But the fact that this is so does not mean that in Romans 9-11, Paul is necessarily making an argument about all people. As I think can be clearly shown, in Romans 9-11, he is specifically focused on the hardening of the Jew for the benefit of the Gentile. You have not engaged the content of my argument to this effect.

Paul laid the groundwork on these matters in Romans in relation to Gods Words of Law and the relationship of indwelling sin. The identity of Jew or Gentile with indwelling sin is in fact 'universal' as so laid out by Paul. All have it regardless of their national origin. This is a christian universal principle, well accepted. And the connection of sin the EVIL/THE DEVIL is also unavoidable as are Jesus' statements about 'where the Word is sown, Satan enters.' Satan does not enter only JEWS to BLIND. The same principle applies to anyone who hears Gods Words and that relationship to the entrance of THE DECEIVER/BLINDER.

Again, the fact that God hardens people in general does not mean that Paul is prohibited from making an argument about how God has hardened Jews in order to save Gentiles - which is clearly what he is doing in Romans 9 to 11.

I don't disagree that Gods Words were spoken first and foremost to the nation of Israel and that the 'god of this world' blinded them not one whit differently than a gentile is likewise blinded.

Please read carefully. I never posted anything that suggested that Jews are being "blamed" for anything. I am only following Paul - in Romans 9 to 11 he argues that God has hardened the Jew for the benefit of the Gentile. There is mountains of exegetical evidence for this - the middle to later bits of Romans 11 are as about clear as one could want - Jewish "branches" have been broken off so that Gentiles can be grafted in:

Point taken and accepted, except for the little fact that neither Esau or Pharaoh were Jews.

You {***Gentiles by obvious context} will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted.

I do not think I can be more clear than I have already been: When I assert that, in Romans 9 to 11, Paul is making a case about the hardening of Jews,

You have two examples in Romans 9 and an abundance of scriptures about by Paul prior that this is NOT simply a matter of Jewish hardening, which Paul doesn't delve into until Romans 11, particularly.

and invoking the potter image which in the Old Testament is always about God's right to "mold" Israel, I am not, repeat not, saying that never hardens other people.

As stated, the god of this world is an equal opportunity blinder of Jew or Gentile in like method. Word sown-Satan entry.

Where I draw the line with your view is when you make Gods children, Israelites the vessels of dishonour. That in itself is a form of blindness, particularly in the light of fact that Satan/the devil is clearly involved.

Do you want more arguments as to why the "vessels of destruction" must be Jews and only Jews?

Sure, as soon as you acknowledge that they are taught in the scriptures to be GODS CHILDREN. Then you can proceed to show me that God is going to burn His children alive in the lake of fire forever if that is where you are headed with them in your understandings.

We should already suspect this based on the fact that Paul introduces the 9 to 11 block with a lament over, yes, Israel. So when Paul talks about vessels of destruction a few breaths later, there is every reason to suppose that these vessels are the very Jews over whom he laments.

Mankind was blinded in the Garden starting with Adam. The same principle that Jesus taught is demonstrated openly there as well. Word of blessings sown upon Adam, the serpent there doing his deeds upon them. Not one whit different.

The Law was always for the LAWLESS and satan/devils are assurdedly lawless and are empowered to action by THE LAW/Gods Words.

The statements of Jesus in these matters are not solely for national Israel. And the LAW was according to Paul to shut up 'every mouth' and make 'the world' guilty before God.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

The New Testament doctrine of Grace teaches that Grace is more Sovereign than sin and death rom 5:



20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Vince]

Did you know that a person with a hardened heart can still be saved?

Mark 6:52 "For they [the twelve Apostles] had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened."

 

[savedbygrace57]

Did you know that a person with a hardened heart can still be saved?

Mark 6:52 "For they [the twelve Apostles] had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened."

Sure, if they are elect. Gods elect have been reconciled [in His Favor] even while they are enemies to Him, by the Death of God's Son !

rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies [by nature], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,

That means that even while being enemies, because of Christ death for us, God would not lay our sins to our charge 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The New Testament doctrine of Grace teaches that some are what is called of the Election of Grace per rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[Vince]

Did you know that a person with a hardened heart can still be saved?

Mark 6:52 "For they [the twelve Apostles] had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened."

It is a common mistake to believe that God hardens some people so that they cannot be saved. God hardened Pharaoh's heart (after Pharaoh had already hardened it) so that he could destroy Pharaoh PHYSICALLY, explaining that He was doing this in order to bring people to Himself.

 

[Drew]

Where I draw the line with your view is when you make Gods children, Israelites the vessels of dishonour. That in itself is a form of blindness, particularly in the light of fact that Satan/the devil is clearly involved.

I am only being faithful to Paul's argument. And I am not sure how you can deny the clear implications of statements in Romans 11 about how God has indeed hardened Jews for the benefit of the whole world - he is not talking about a "general" hardening of both Jew and Gentile in Romans 11 - every single statement about hardening (or being "broken off") in Romans 11 is about Jews, and Jews only. I am sorry if that does not sit well with you, but the text says what it says. So since the entire 9 to 11 block is really about God's treatment of Israel in relation to the whole world, there is every reason to understand that the vessels of destruction are Jews and Jews only.

No one is saying that God does not, for his own purpose, harden Gentiles. Clearly, Paul is saying that He did. But the entire shape of the 9 to 11 argument is that God has hardened Jews for the benefit of the world.

In chapters 9 to 11, Paul is dealing with this question: "Since God made all these promises to Abraham and his descendents, how come they are almost all outside of the family of God, having rejected their Messiah Jesus?". In this respect, I can show that in chapters 5 to 8, Paul has systematically "transferred" the promises made to the nation of Israel to the Jew + Gentile church. Having done so, Paul has a lot of explaining to do - what about the promises to Israel.

In 9 to 11, Paul argues that in the strange and wonderful purposes of God, Israel was to be the place where the sin of the world is "concentrated and localized" so that it could then be borne on the cross by Jesus. Paul is arguing that what has happened to Israel is not an "accident" - the hardening of the Jews is something that God very intentionally does so that sin can be defeated on the cross.

Israel acts out the "Christ" pattern, being "cast away" so that the world can be saved. This is why Paul sees that we all a great debt to the nation of Israel - without what happened to Israel, the cross could never have solved the sin problem.

Smaller, what do you think the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant was? How do you think God was going to fulfill His promise that through Israel, the nations will be blessed?

I suggest that Paul is saying that God used Israel as the place where the sin of the world was concentrated so that it could then be borne by her representative Messiah, Jesus.

 

[Drew]

It is a common mistake to believe that God hardens some people so that they cannot be saved. God hardened Pharaoh's heart (after Pharaoh had already hardened it) so that he could destroy Pharaoh PHYSICALLY, explaining that He was doing this in order to bring people to Himself.

I disagree about why Pharoah was hardened. I suggest that from the Old Testament texts Paul invokes in relation to Pharoah show that he was hardened so that God could show his power to the whole world by delivering the Israelites in the great exodus. Again, we need to be true to what Paul actually writes - and he invokes an exodus text that shows that Paul is arguing that Pharaoh was specifically hardened to resist the liberation of the Israelites, thereby enabling God to deliver them in a great act of liberation that all the world can see.

I certainly agree that God wants "to bring people to Himself", but the Pharoah hardening was about a specific event in history - the exodus.

 

[smaller]

I am only being faithful to Paul's argument. And I am not sure how you can deny the clear implications of statements in Romans 11 about how God has indeed hardened Jews for the benefit of the whole world

Well, you appeared to be making a case that the hardening was ONLY JEWS when that is obviously not the case with Pharaoh in Romans 9 nor with Esau who was hated by God before doing anything good or evil whatsoever.

So no, Paul is assuredly NOT speaking about the hardening of Jews 'only' but does certainly elaborate on that hardening almost from the beginning of Romans and it is not only to JEWS but the arousal of INDWELLING SIN in relation to EXPOSURE TO THE LAW or GOD'S WORDS.

Arousal of indwelling sin IS the hardening that transpires in ALL in relation to GODS WORDS, that being THE LAW, THE PROPHETS and The Words of His Christ, just as Jesus taught us.

- he is not talking about a "general" hardening of both Jew and Gentile in Romans 11 - every single statement about hardening (or being "broken off") in Romans 11 is about Jews, and Jews only. I am sorry if that does not sit well with you, but the text says what it says.

I'm not going to nitpick with you. Your prior statement encompassed not only chapter 11, but 9. I simply pointed out that Jews only is NOT the case in 9 because neither Pharaoh or Esau ARE JEWS and I am NOT disagreeing with you about the hardening of Jews in 11, but that is NOT the only case there either, in case you are interested.

So since the entire 9 to 11 block is really about God's treatment of Israel in relation to the whole world, there is every reason to understand that the vessels of destruction are Jews and Jews only.

And that is simply not the case. There are warnings in chapter 11 to BELIEVERS of any sort as well.

No one is saying that God does not, for his own purpose, harden Gentiles. Clearly, Paul is saying that He did. But the entire shape of the 9 to 11 argument is that God has hardened Jews for the benefit of the world.

To say that Jews are the only ones blinded by the spirit of stupor is flatly denied in 2 Cor. 4:4. It is not JEWS who are the vessels of destruction. God has not abandoned or forsaken them 'permanently' but TEMPORARILY. Vessels of DESTRUCTION will receive exactly ZERO mercy or forgiveness. Vessels of destruction DO NOT CHANGE into vessels of HONOR.

IF you see the 'god of this world' as THE VESSEL of destruction there are no issues and the 'god of this world' is without any doubt OVER the MINDS of those so blinded of ANY nationality.

There is A GREATER PRINCIPLE in play in these matters and that principle is taught by Jesus. Where the Word is sown SATAN enters to STEAL and to DECEIVE. As soon as you acknowledge that FACT then the vessel of DISHONOUR should become readily apparent and you may even stop looking at MEN OF FLESH. We are to know NO MAN after the flesh.

In chapters 9 to 11, Paul is dealing with this question: "Since God made all these promises to Abraham and his descendents, how come they are almost all outside of the family of God, having rejected their Messiah Jesus?". In this respect, I can show that in chapters 5 to 8, Paul has systematically "transferred" the promises made to the nation of Israel to the Jew + Gentile church. Having done so, Paul has a lot of explaining to do - what about the promises to Israel.

And again I will generally agree. A 'true jew' is one in HEART who has been 'circumsized' within by cutting away or DIVIDING of themselves from the POWERS OF DARKNESS that we 'all' repeat ALL still carry. The TWO VESSELS are in fact carried in ALL. In the slaves of darkness it is the OTHER VESSEL, the VESSEL OF DISHONOR in them that has been raised in POWER over the vessel of HONOR.

Paul affirms this exact position 'personally' and POST salvation by 'truthfully' admitting that indwelling sin remained in his flesh and that EVIL PRESENT remained with him when he desired to do good. Why anyone can't see this separation in Paul is in fact a working of that other power IN their own flesh and mind.

In 9 to 11, Paul argues that in the strange and wonderful purposes of God, Israel was to be the place where the sin of the world is "concentrated and localized" so that it could then be borne on the cross by Jesus. Paul is arguing that what has happened to Israel is not an "accident" - the hardening of the Jews is something that God very intentionally does so that sin can be defeated on the cross.

And it was NOT merely the SIN of the JEWS, but the SIN of THE WORLD.

Israel acts out the "Christ" pattern, being "cast away" so that the world can be saved. This is why Paul sees that we all a great debt to the nation of Israel - without what happened to Israel, the cross could never have solved the sin problem.

Well, that may be another conversation. Obviously you do not believe that God Alone solved that issue for Jews.

Smaller, what do you think the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant was? How do you think God was going to fulfill His promise that through Israel, the nations will be blessed?

Every vessel of HONOR will receive DIVINE MERCY regardless. And likewise NO vessel of DISHONOUR will receive MERCY. There is the DIVIDING of the COVENANTS.

The Covenants are TWOfold. One for vessels of honor whom God loves as expressed through 'election' and one for the powers and entities of LAWLESSNESS who cannot make themselves lawful. The Law was always meant to both reveal and condemn 'workers of iniquity' PERMANENTLY. The Law holds 'them' no quarter nor does Grace allow 'believers' to be SINNING LAWBREAKERS.

The exact difficult arises when one sees that both vessels are carried in ONE LUMP called mankind. It is Gods Choice alone WHICH is raised to prevail at this present time.

I suggest that Paul is saying that God used Israel as the place where the sin of the world was concentrated so that it could then be borne by her representative Messiah, Jesus.

And that is flatly denied by Paul. All have sin and have sinned. To try to PIN the SIN on Jews only is absurd.

enjoy!

s

 

[Drew]

And that is flatly denied by Paul. All have sin and have sinned. To try to PIN the SIN on Jews only is absurd.
s

Again, I am only following Paul's argument. Did I write this?:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

No I did not write this - Paul wrote this. And, in the 9-11 context, it is a clear statement that the hardening of Israel in particular is connected to the salvation of Gentiles.

Again, please do not misrepresent me. I never posted anything that suggest that I am "pinning sin on Jews"

It looks like I will need to make the detailed arguments, and I hope to do so.

 

[smaller]

Again, I am only following Paul's argument. Did I write this?:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

No I did not write this - Paul wrote this. And, in the 9-11 context, it is a clear statement that the hardening of Israel in particular is connected to the salvation of Gentiles.

Again, please do not misrepresent me. I never posted anything that suggest that I am "pinning sin on Jews"

It looks like I will need to make the detailed arguments, and I hope to do so.

I think we have run our course on this one Drew. And I will have to disagree that the only hardened ones are Jews. When you see anyone who is blinded by the 'god of this world' you are seeing the hardened regardless of their national origin.

enjoy!

s