The Pope.

[laura352]

i may not know what i am talking about, but didnt the pope say that you cannot be saved unless you are apart of the catholic church or something like that? im sorry, but where does he get off saying that? im not catholic, so im not saved? if you ask me, that sounds like the Great Whore. you even have to pay to "confess your sins" they seem very alike to me.
so tell me what you think

 

[stovebolts]

I think the misconception might be the word 'Catholic" and how it's being used.

The word catholic simply means universal. That is to say that salvation is open to all, not just the Jews as was the ideology in the day of Christ until the first century church was formed, to which they called themselves the 'Catholic' Church.

Now, there are different types of "Catholic" churches, and that's where I believe your confusion comes in. Note the preface to word 'Catholic" in each church. There is the Orthodox Catholic church, Roman Catholic Church, Milkite Catholic and Antiochian Catholic church just to name a few. (and there are many)

Now, I havn't read the Wiki article, but it may help you to better understand the word 'Catholic'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

Back to your original thought in regard to the Pope, by the broad definition of the very word catholic, you are indeed a part of the Catholic Church. I'm sure that I've got your hair raised now, but please, hear me out.

Please note; I did not say that you were a part of the Roman catholic church. What I said is that you are a part of the universal (catholic) Church of Christ. That is to say that you are a part of the body of Christ.

Where the Roman catholic church takes a stand, is in saying that the fullness of Christ can only be found within the Roman catholic church and to this, you may disagree as do all who label themselves protestant or any other label of christianity including the Greek Orthodox church. Now, according to Vatican 2, those outside of the Roman Catholic church can still belong to the Catholic Church and thus, can be saved and yes, this even extends to the Protestants.

Does that make sense to you?

BTW, I would be considered a protestant from the view point of the Roman catholic church.

Hope that clears things up a bit for you.

Peace.

 

[Robert Cragg]

Not to sound upsetting but the Catholic Church has in their doctrine for a long time that the only way to be saved is to be A Catholic and your sins must be absolved by a Priest. You also must receive the last rights. Their Doctrine of Salavation is connected to Baptism. One must be baptised first before he can obtain salvation, also must have good works. This was writtened between 1258-1259 AD

 

[francisdesales]

i may not know what i am talking about, but didnt the pope say that you cannot be saved unless you are apart of the catholic church or something like that? im sorry, but where does he get off saying that? im not catholic, so im not saved? if you ask me, that sounds like the Great Whore. you even have to pay to "confess your sins" they seem very alike to me.
so tell me what you think

Laura,

Stovebolts did a good job of explaining a difficult concept for even Catholics to articulate correctly. In the Vatican 2 documents (Lumen Gentium) that discuss WHAT the Church is, the bishops were careful to note that the "Church" SUBSISTS in the Catholic Church. They were careful not to say "IS the Catholic Church".

What this means is that as long as men and women are even remotely tied to the Catholic Church, they are still part of the Catholic Church. One does not need to be sitting in Sunday Mass in a Roman Catholic Church to be considered "Catholic" in the broadest of definitinos. One is considered part of the Church if they share the same faith, same baptism, and same bread (Eucharist). To the degree that we share these things in common, we are part of the same Catholic Church.

First, you have presumably been baptized in the name of the Trinity? If so, welcome to the Church! That is how one enters the Church of Christ - through baptism. There are plenty of Scritpures to show that. Even the baptism by a heretic, when correctly done and with right intent, is STILL considered valid - according to the Church of 1800 years ago, said Pope Stephen. As such, no one can legitimately say that a Protestant is not part of the Church upon baptism, to some degree.

My ministry is to Protestants and fallen-away Catholics who want to fully enter the Church. Our rituals and discussions are careful to note that our separated brothers are just that - separated in many key areas, but still brothers who are part of the same Church, the Cathoilc Church. We do not "rebaptized" Lutherans or Presbyterians. They ALREADY are part of the Church. During the Easter Vigil (a beautiful Mass, by the way), the ritual includes these separated brothers fulling declaring their intent on entering into the FULLNESS of the Church by their reception of Christ in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is THE sign of our unity, so they receive it, since they have fully joined to the Body.

Naturally, our separated brothers possess some truths, but we believe that the fullness of God's truth was given to the visible Church as established by Jesus Christ through His apostles and their successors.

It is unfortunate that some people are confused on this issue, but believe me, the Cathoilc Church does not consider religious affiliation as ultimately critical to one's salvation to heaven. The Spirit is recognizable among many of our separated brothers, and it is beyond doubt that the Spirit will blow where HE wills. "Nothing else matters but faith working in love" - Gal 5:6. Thus the Catholic Catechism notes that EVEN MUSLIMS can be saved... Certainly, that does not mean that Protestants CANNOT be saved!

If you have further questions about the Pope's declaration, please let me know so I can clear this issue up for you.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Not to sound upsetting but the Catholic Church has in their doctrine for a long time that the only way to be saved is to be A Catholic and your sins must be absolved by a Priest. You also must receive the last rights. Their Doctrine of Salavation is connected to Baptism. One must be baptised first before he can obtain salvation, also must have good works. This was writtened between 1258-1259 AD

Robert,

You are misunderstanding what the Catholic Church teaches. I can understand and respect your decision to remain where you are, but at least know what we teach and judge us on that truth.

One does not have to be Roman Catholic to be saved. We must be part of the Catholic Church, however. Vatican 2 most fully described WHAT is means to BE part of the Church.

God is not bound by the sacraments. Thus, in the absolute sense, a person does not HAVE to be absolved of sins by a Catholic priest before being saved. Technically, baptism does that. Confession are for subsequent sins. Without getting too technical, God can choose to save whom HE deems has given a sincere confession and penance for their sins. Now, knowing about the role of the priest and REFUSING to go to him, God's instrument, is similar to ignoring Moses or the Prophets and claiming to be able to go directly to God, if one was a Jew before Christ. God has established a visible heirarchy and given men the power to forgive sins. Knowing this and refusing to submit one's conscience to God through HIS priests - well, only HE can judge the motives behind that. But in the end, I would not say that God is bound by His own sacraments! Neither did St. Augustine vs. the Donatists, and has been the Catholic stance since.

You are correct, one must be baptized, but again, God is not bound by this sacrament, and He certainly can save whom HE wills. The Church has attributed many martyrs to sainthood, people who are without doubt in heaven - but were NEVER BAPTIZED! The Church calls this a "baptism by blood". If baptism is the witness of one's proclamation that Jesus is Lord, what would martyrdom be?! Again, absolutely speaking, one can be saved for heaven and not be baptized.

Regarding your reference to the 13th century, it might be good to take such proclamations into context, realizing the historical significance of what was happening at the time. This would help to explain why the Pope said what he did. Reading the Bull shows that one must submit to God first, THEN to the King, not the other way around.

I hope this helps clear things up. My other post will probably help with "no salvation outside the Church".

Regards

 

[Robert Cragg]

I've taken my info from web-sites that explain when thse doctrines where written by which Popes
who had them made part of the Cathoilcs laws.
In fact the last words of Pope Paul who died where recorded and played on TV they were " Dear mother Mary please forgive me and carry my soul into Heaven."

 

[Vic C.]

I may need to move this. It's getting a bit apologetic and theological. 8-)

 

[Arcanebiomech]

i may not know what i am talking about, but didnt the pope say that you cannot be saved unless you are apart of the catholic church or something like that? im sorry, but where does he get off saying that? im not catholic, so im not saved? if you ask me, that sounds like the Great Whore. you even have to pay to "confess your sins" they seem very alike to me.
so tell me what you think

The Pope is just like us. Human. What he says isn't as important as what God says, all humans can make mistakes, that includes the Pope. If it helps him sleep better at night believing that only Catholics will go to heaven then good for him. People who do what he says without questioning it are just sheep following the rest of the herd.

 

[believer_in_one]

Yep the Pope is human, unfortunately also one that believes that he is somewhat a divine interpretation of one. The pope has no authority whatsoever, Catholic is misused but has morphed into an institution. Anybody who takes any man's words over Christ's has given himself over to the depravity of our flesh. Only Christ has the power to forgive sins, He died for our sins and rose again. If we believe on him then we to will be raised up, he is our expectation. Keep the faith of the truth, theological discussions usually become redundant and tired. Focus on Jesus and what he did, and what he is doing in our lives

Jesus Bless,

 

[francisdesales]

Yep the Pope is human, unfortunately also one that believes that he is somewhat a divine interpretation of one. The pope has no authority whatsoever, Catholic is misused but has morphed into an institution. Anybody who takes any man's words over Christ's has given himself over to the depravity of our flesh. Only Christ has the power to forgive sins, He died for our sins and rose again. If we believe on him then we to will be raised up, he is our expectation. Keep the faith of the truth, theological discussions usually become redundant and tired. Focus on Jesus and what he did, and what he is doing in our lives

So when does the Pope command Catholics to do something in contradistinction to the words of Christ?

Secondly, why do you ignore other Words of Christ, such as...

Then Jesus said to them again, Peace [be] unto you; as [my] Father has sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on [them] and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit; unto those whose sins ye release, they shall be released; [and] unto those whose [sins] ye retain, they shall be retained. John 20:21-23

Note, these words were said AFTER the resurrection...

I AM the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, they shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore contended among themselves, saying, How is he able to give us [his] flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye shall have no life in you. Whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:51-54

I am not writing these things to start an argument, but to bring some food for thought to you and your accusations. The Catholic Church believes that they are being true to ALL of the Words of Christ, not just the ones that sound nice or allow you to THINK you are following His Words while ignoring the rest... By ignoring such words, are you being faithful to what Jesus taught?

Regards

 

[believer_in_one]

I don't see how i am ignoring these scriptures. I break bread and drink in fellowship with Christ and his followers regularly. I am just saying that the "Pope," isn't scriptural. He is but a man decieved by words of men rather than God. I believe in Rom.10:9, John 14:6. Also the Pope is not to be followed or even called a leader.(Matt.23:8-13) Therefore the Pope is a contradiction.

 

[laura352]

first of all, i understand that the "church" is universal. all Christians and all who are saved are apart of the body of Christ. we are all connected. however, "catholic" seems to have become a domination and each domination of Christianity, sadly, has its own set of 'Christian' beliefs, and the catholics are that you have to do things such as pay and confess to a man to be saved. that doesnt make sense to me. yes, it is written that you must confess with your mouth, but only God can forgive sins and it is blasphemy for a man to say, you have confessed to me, so you are forgiven.
this seems to follow the traits of the Great Whore written in Revelations.
also, i agree that people put too much of their faith in man, such as the Pope, but not only the Pope. you are not supposed to blindly believe everything that man says and you are supposed to look to God and His Word for the right and wrong elements of faith and dominations.