The Pre Tribulation Rapture: Fact or Fiction?

[farouk]

You said that Abraham was a saint of God not a member of the body of Christ. That sounds all nice but the only problem with that is you have no scripture to back it up. Paul who was a Jew made it quite clear that all in Christ have inherited the promises made to Abraham. I am in Christ so i have inherited the same promises that God made to Abraham...no distinction. Romans 11 teaches us that believing Gentiles are grafted into the promises. What happens to unbelieving Jews? They are cast out. Jesus even told the unbelieving Pharisees who were Jews that they were children of the devil. Paul told us there is no longer Jew or Greek in the sight of God. So please let us drop this nonsense about body of Christ here and Abraham the saint there...You are either a child of God or not.

Friend, please moderate your language about those (who are hugely numerous, especially in North America) who do see a distinction in Scripture between the church and Israel, the Old and the New Testament and so forth.

 

[farouk]

So please let us drop this nonsense about body of Christ here and Abraham the saint there.

Is this a canned response for things that you do not understand? It sounds so much like something Jesus would say. ;)

We just need to move on, in steadfast appreciation by God's grace, for the glorious distinctives which Scripture unfolds, in accordance with the divine plan.

 

[Grappler]

Friend, please moderate your language about those (who are hugely numerous, especially in North America) who do see a distinction in Scripture between the church and Israel, the Old and the New Testament and so forth.

First of all i am sorry if my language offended you... was it the word nonsense? Secondly please don't bring up the numbers game. Just because a belief is popular doesn't make it right...there are more humans on Earth today that are not Christians and you and i both know that they are wrong...so to point out the popularity of a belief does not help you arguement. Thirdly i simply tell you what scripture says about Israel and the church. And scripture clearly teaches that under the New Covenant ALL in Christ have inherited the promises God made to Abraham. Now can we agree that "all in Christ" are the church you speak of? or are these people who are the "all in Christ" just another set of people that Dispensationalist say exist?

 

[Grappler]

Is this a canned response for things that you do not understand? It sounds so much like something Jesus would say. ;)



The more I read, the more I am seeing a distinction between Israel and the Church also. We all have same God and will go to the same place, but there seems to be some promises in place to the Church that do not apply to the prophecies concerning Israel, and there being a distinction would explain it perfectly.

Here is Galatians chapter 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Edward... Where is the distinction you seem to see?

 

[farouk]

First of all i am sorry if my language offended you... was it the word nonsense? Secondly please don't bring up the numbers game. Just because a belief is popular doesn't make it right...there are more humans on Earth today that are not Christians and you and i both know that they are wrong...so to point out the popularity of a belief does not help you arguement. Thirdly i simply tell you what scripture says about Israel and the church. And scripture clearly teaches that under the New Covenant ALL in Christ have inherited the promises God made to Abraham. Now can we agree that "all in Christ" are the church you speak of? or are these people who are the "all in Christ" just another set of people that Dispensationalist say exist?

...but remember that all of Israel are not in Christ.

Paul speaks of 'the Jew, ...the Gentile, (&) the church of God' (1 Corinthians 10.32).

The church is a distinct entity. Acts of the Apostles shows how the Gospel went to the Gentiles also, and when there were people converted out of the Gentiles and converted from Judaism, they formed the new entity, the church, not the synagogue.

 

[Grappler]

...but remember that all of Israel are not in Christ.

Paul speaks of 'the Jew, ...the Gentile, (&) the church of God' (1 Corinthians 10.32).

The church is a distinct entity. Acts of the Apostles shows how the Gospel went to the Gentiles also, and when there were people converted out of the Gentiles and converted from Judaism, they formed the new entity, the church, not the synagogue.

No the church is not some entity floating around you speak of the church as if it is an individual. The church is made up of people...the children of God. I think you are confused...i never said anything about a synagogue. I am not sure why you keep bringing up 1 Corinthians 10:32? I never said that there are not "Jews". There are still "Jews" today walking the Earth and unless they repent and become part of the true Israel or church since you like that term they will be cast into a lake of fire at their judgment. What you seem to not want to accept is that Paul makes it crystal clear that ALL IN CHRIST have inherited the promises made to Abraham...Galatians chapter 3. There is no distinction there.

 

[Grappler]

I think i have done all i can here for now. I have enjoyed the discussions but i am growing rather bored of this topic. I hope that i at least i got you all to think a little bit. I know that to make this paradigm shift of thought on this subject is rather difficult and will take time because you have been so immersed into this way of thinking. But if you just read scripture and believe what it says you will find that the pre-tribulation rapture is indeed fiction...it is not even in scripture. If any of you would like to discuss this further feel free to send me a private message...that way no one else will know and pride won't be in the way. In a few weeks or so i am sure i will pick back up on this subject...maybe their will be some new people on here that i can help. God bless you all. Grappler.

 

[vocalyocal]

Is this a canned response for things that you do not understand? It sounds so much like something Jesus would say. ;)



The more I read, the more I am seeing a distinction between Israel and the Church also. We all have same God and will go to the same place, but there seems to be some promises in place to the Church that do not apply to the prophecies concerning Israel, and there being a distinction would explain it perfectly.

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[JLB]

I think i have done all i can here for now. I have enjoyed the discussions but i am growing rather bored of this topic. I hope that i at least i got you all to think a little bit. I know that to make this paradigm shift of thought on this subject is rather difficult and will take time because you have been so immersed into this way of thinking. But if you just read scripture and believe what it says you will find that the pre-tribulation rapture is indeed fiction...it is not even in scripture. If any of you would like to discuss this further feel free to send me a private message...that way no one else will know and pride won't be in the way. In a few weeks or so i am sure i will pick back up on this subject...maybe their will be some new people on here that i can help. God bless you all. Grappler.

Well said!

Furthermore, one would have to totally violate what Jesus Himself taught us to insulate us from being deceived by the false Christ -

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:23-27


For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

To believe that Jesus will return BEFORE the Great Tribulation you then have to believe that Jesus' return will be invisible.

For if the world saw The True Christ return BEFORE the false Christ was revealed then all would know that he is a counterfeit, for they would have already have seen the true Christ.

No one will have to tell you that Jesus has returned, for -

... every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

The pre-trib rapture doctrine is a false doctrine!


JLB

 

[farouk]

No the church is not some entity floating around you speak of the church as if it is an individual. The church is made up of people...the children of God. I think you are confused...i never said anything about a synagogue. I am not sure why you keep bringing up 1 Corinthians 10:32? I never said that there are not "Jews". There are still "Jews" today walking the Earth and unless they repent and become part of the true Israel or church since you like that term they will be cast into a lake of fire at their judgment. What you seem to not want to accept is that Paul makes it crystal clear that ALL IN CHRIST have inherited the promises made to Abraham...Galatians chapter 3. There is no distinction there.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT][/FONT]I think, Friend, you are again jumping to conclusions as to what I supposedly do or do not believe.

You refer to Galatians as being supposedly what I don't believe (a charge I happen not to accept) but anyway Galatians 3.14 says:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Yes, indeed, it is the blessing of Abraham by faith. This does not mean, however, that the church becomes Israel, or that converted Gentiles become part of Israel.

If you would maybe not keep repeatedly making claims as to what other people believe or don't believe without any evidence to back it up (do scroll back and read the sort of comments you have posted repeatedly), maybe - just maybe - this discussion would be more constructive.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[jasoncran]

uhm question. so what exactly was the myriad of gentiles when they believed in Isreal's GOD enough to go with them the exodus? NON-Hebrews or were they counted as Hebrews.

 

[Ryan]

Wonder if they called themselves Egyptian-Israelites as some African-Americans call themselves?

 

[Eugene]

Wonder if they called themselves Egyptian Israelites as some African Americans call themselves?

You know some African Americans that call themselves Egyptian Israelites? ;)

Just kidding, but a friend of mine suggests that this woman of Samaria was possibly mixed blood of Jew with those of Samaria as a result of the dispersion: she claims Jacob, and Jesus sure knew her.

John 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water . .

John 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

 

[reba]

Wonder if they called themselves Egyptian Israelites as some African Americans call themselves?

You left out the hyphen

 

[reba]

You know some African Americans that call themselves Egyptian Israelites? ;)

Just kidding, but A friend of mine suggests that this woman of Samaria was possibly mixed blood of Jew with those of Samaria as a result of the dispersion: she claims Jacob, and Jesus sure knew her.

John 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water . .

John 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

He knows us too

 

[Eugene]

He knows us too

HE do, He do, He do or I'd be in a world of trouble; oh, and you too?

 

[YosefHayim]

[video="youtube;Dvv2HPYdhMA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvv2HPYdhMA[/video]

 

[n2thelight]

Edward

In the Rapture
A Translation of believers takes place.
Translated Saints go to heaven.
Earth is not judged.
Imminent, at any moment. Sign-less.
Believers only.
As a thief in the night.
Before the day of Wrath.
No reference to Satan.
Comes for his own.
Claims his Bride.
Only His own see Him.
Great Tribulation begins.
Church Believers only.

All go to heaven at death
Christ told us everything that must happen before His return,Paul said the man of sin must be revealed,so how can His coming be signless
Don't know where you all keep getting this theif in the night,as He only comes as a theif to those that are in darkness.....
Before the day of wrath,scripture please
satan is the man of sin,very much referenced
every eye shall see Him
Christ says He was coming after the tribulation

In essence,what you are saying is that Christ returns twice,and that simply is not true!!!!!!!

 

[n2thelight]

To say that Christ will rapture away the church goes against the very teaching of the end times taught in the New Testament. And as we take a look through some Bible verses, you will see that the second coming, the resurrection, the harvest and the end of the world happen during the ONE SAME EVENT. There is no mention at all of any sudden taking away of the church before the end of the world.

The word 'rapture' is based on the words 'caught up' in the Bible verses following in Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ...'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'

Now if we study the above verses IN CONTEXT, we will see another description of the second coming in Chapter 5 vs 2 ... "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." ... This thief in the night description is also used by the rapture supporters. But if we take a look at another Bible passage that talks about Jesus coming like a thief in the night, we can gain a TRUE understanding of it:

2 Peter 3:10 ...'But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.'

Wow! Bible proof once more that the rapture teaching with a following 7 year tribulation period is a false teaching! Look at what it says. Yes, the Lord WILL come like a thief in the night, but what happens AT THE SAME TIME? "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.". No rapture and certainly no life continues AFTER Jesus returns like a thief, because it's the end of the world!

So what is the Bible getting at when it tells us that Jesus will return like a thief? Again we need to study IN CONTEXT, rather than take a verse hear and there. Look again at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 ...'For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.'

So what happens during the coming of Jesus as a thief? SUDDEN DESTRUCTION! And what does the above verses confirm concerning the church? THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL NOT BE AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT to the church, because we will have been watching and waiting for Him. So to apply the thief in the night verses to the church being raptured away is wrong. But the following verses confirm who Jesus comes as a thief for:

John 10:10 ...'The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.'

Matthew 24:43 ...'But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.'

Revelation 3:3 ...'Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt NOT watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.'

Revelation 16:15 ...'Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.'

Do you see a clear theme here? Friends, you have the amazing Bible truth right there! Jesus is NOT coming as a thief for the church. He is coming as a thief for the lost! For those who will not be expecting Him to return. Think about it. Would we WANT to see a thief? No. So who is it that wouldn't want to see Jesus "as a thief"? The lost! And when He does come as a thief, He will destroy the wicked and the earth will come to an END, which 2 Peter 3:10 confirms.

http://www.secondcomingofchristjesus.net/page3.htm

 

[John 8:32]

uhm question. so what exactly was the myriad of gentiles when they believed in Isreal's GOD enough to go with them the exodus? NON-Hebrews or were they counted as Hebrews.

Color, race, station in life, nothing mattered except that they worshipped God as He instructed. They had all the rights a native born Israelite had save one...

Deu 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
Deu 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

Same rule in America for president.