The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[Deborah13]

And yes, temptation is a sin.

Not man's sin nor Jesus' sin. Jesus was tempted.

The notion that sin is only "sin" when acted upon in the external is NOT true. See Matt. 5:28 for another example from Jesus.

When one is tempted it does not become sin if that person does not accept the temptation. If they do not accept the thought, if they do just as Jesus did and stand against it, they do not sin. It is only when one accepts those thoughts, contemplates them, *derives pleasure/satisfaction from them*, that they become lust in their thoughts and in their heart. Thou shall not covet, etc.

Is it sinful for satan to tempt man, I suspect so.

 

[Deborah13]

We have A Divine Shepherd precisely because there are WOLVES who seek to devour the flocks of God. And those who seek to "destroy" our fellow believers in hell, I would not trust for a nanosecond. It could very well be them who have been taken in by the tempter in trying to destroy sheep.

There is just a whole lot more going on in these spiritual battles than just the believer, that is for sure. We have a common enemy and it is not the believer.

I would agree with both of these statements.

 

[smaller]

Not man's sin nor Jesus' sin. Jesus was tempted.

The tempter had NO PLACE in Jesus. His temptation was "external" in nature, not "internal" as ours is. That is why we "listen" to Him, because His Words were untainted, the Pure Words of God Himself, The Living Word, who also "lives" within us.

When one is tempted it does not become sin if that person does not accept the temptation.

The working of internal temptation is not justified or justifiable in any scriptural equations. Just because it may not "leak" into the outside is not the measures that Jesus showed us. Evil is an "internal factor" within everyone and is so in the form of "evil thoughts" which defile us all. See previous citings from Jesus.

If they do not accept the thought, if they do just as Jesus did and stand against it, they do not sin.

The progression of sin is this. From "thought" to "word" and ultimately to "external deed." But the first step exists in everyone, in the form of evil thoughts. These "thoughts" are not justified or justifiable and they do "exist" within everyone.

We may judge a person who does not "sin" in the external sense as "less the slave of sin" but that sight does not and is not capable of seeing "within" any person.

God has put us all in a type of "spiritual pardox" in this matter, of being internally bound with both "good and evil." It is important to understand this paradox, meaning that the "evil" within our own conscience is does not and can not come before God in Christ, as justified in any way.

Hebrews shows us this fact about our "internal self."

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The person who comes 'bearing' this internal fact will be received. People who don't think this is their internal condition are only HIDING themselves from God in Christ and do not come before Him with "a whole heart," and I doubt very much that God in Christ is "fooled" by any attempted coverups.

We all deal with evil, internally.

This same struggle is exampled by Paul, here. This is not an example of "two different" people, but of the individual believer:

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Ishmael and Isaac were "external examples" of an internal reality. There was no way for Ishmael to be part of Israel or to be justified "under the covenant" just as there is no way to "justify" the tempter, internally, in the New Covenant.

The "transposition" of understanding turned from the external, to the internal, in the New Covenant. In the O.T. we were given "external examples" of "internal realities."

 

[FreeGrace]

You are welcome to only observe Paul. Paul did not make that case for himself.

Yes, he did. Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 2 Cor 12:7

I would suggest that this "dilemma" is the dilemma of every sinner. The presence of "lawlessness" in the form of "evil present" in the "internals" of us all is what makes all of us "lawless." This is why no person can be 'justified' under the law. And Grace makes no provisions or excuses for sins either.

No. Paul clearly identified Adam as the reason all humans are sinful. Rom 5

We do 'have,' present tense, eternal life. But that "life" is not extended to the tempter, who's workings are "internal" within us all. This is very simple to observe.[/QUOET]
why is this being brought up repeatedly?? It is irrelevant. No one claims that eternal life would be "extended to the tempter". That is silly, to say the least. There is no reason to bring up the tempter when discussing eternal life or salvation.

Temptation was in the flesh of Paul. Evil present was "within" Paul. Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh. It is impossible NOT to see it.

I've not ignored it. But it is irrelevant to any discussion of eternal life. Simply isn't applicable in any sense.

And if we do see this AND consider this to be also a fact for ourselves, then it is we who are blinded to the fact by our own "internal enemy." Only the fruit of "honesty" can speak of this matter. I honestly say that I am tempted by the tempter, internally. Therefore where is the tempter, but internal? This makes "me" a child of God who "bears" the tempter in my own flesh. So, no, it's not just me. Nor was it "just" Paul.

The "internal enemy" is irrelevant in any discussion of eternal security or salvation.

I would utterly refuse to "justify" the tempter in anyone.

No one has.

Believers are still sinners after salvation and sin is still of the devil no matter how you care to slice it.[/QUO9TE]
I've never denied this. So, who has, from your perspective?

This notion that anyone is "entirely holy" when the Apostle of our Lord exposed that he had "evil present" with him is utter nonsense.

That's never been my notion.

Evil present within no person will ever be "justified" "legal" or "obedient" or even less, under Grace.

I've never claimed such a thing.

You may think it so, but the blanket of Grace and Salvation does NOT extend to the tempter. Never has, never will, never happened.

Why in the world anyone would think I "think so". The tempter is irrelevant in all discussions of salvation and eternal life.

No one can justify the "entirety" of themselves while in the flesh by any measures.

Actually, no one justifies themselves, in any sense.

 

[smaller]

Yes, he did. Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 2 Cor 12:7

So you would agree that if we looked at Paul, by his own description, we "should" see both Paul, as a child of God, yet also, in his own flesh, the messenger of Satan? I agree and have made this sight from the start.

It is therefore impossible to look upon Paul as Paul only. Paul was undoubtedly saved and had "eternal security" that in no way could be taken from him, even if he had "fallen" which he fought very hard NOT to do. But there was a fight, internally. And that WAS his revelation.

His own quest, his "delivered ministry" from Jesus was to "turn" people from the "power of Satan," and part of that was for Paul to "show" where that "power" resided. That is, within.

No. Paul clearly identified Adam as the reason all humans are sinful. Rom 5

Well, that is all just another very interesting topic. Just as I do not observe "only Paul" in the equations of Paul, I would not see "only Adam" in the equations of Adam. The tempter afflicted and inflicted them both, internally, just as it is with all of us today.

The very basis of our christian hope is to receive a NEW BODY that is not "subject to" it's present internal inflictions and afflictions.

 

[Deborah13]

The tempter had NO PLACE in Jesus. His temptation was "external" in nature, not "internal" as ours is. That is why we "listen" to Him, because His Words were untainted, the Pure Words of God Himself, The Living Word, who also "lives" within us.

I agree the tempter had no place in Jesus. That does not change the fact that He experienced the temptation so that He might understand us when we are tempted.
Heb 2:17 wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,
Heb 2:18 for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Just because it may not "leak" into the outside is not the measures that Jesus showed us.

I think I already agreed that it does not have to 'leak' out for it to be sinful. When man dwells on a temptation rather than standing against it, dismissing it, it becomes lust, whether they ever act on it externally or not.

It is important to understand this paradox, meaning that the "evil" within our own conscience is does not and can not come before God in Christ, as justified in any way.

There is no justification for lustful thoughts.

We all deal with evil, internally.

I agree.

Ishmael and Isaac were "external examples" of an internal reality. There was no way for Ishmael to be part of Israel or to be justified "under the covenant" just as there is no way to "justify" the tempter, internally, in the New Covenant.

I agree.
It's a good thing that my justification is not determined by my righteousness, but by the righteousness of the one that my faith is in, the Christ.

The "transposition" of understanding turned from the external, to the internal, in the New Covenant. In the O.T. we were given "external examples" of "internal realities."

Interesting observation. I had never thought about it in those terms but I think that I can agree with it.

 

[smaller]

I agree the tempter had no place in Jesus. That does not change the fact that He experienced the temptation so that He might understand us when we are tempted.

Of course Jesus understands this dilemma. We are all put under the dominion of these "elemental" spirits, in effect to "train" us to be against them. To essentially "divide" ourselves away from any of that 'internal compelling.' The fact of this however does not depart.

The very first "spiritual fruit" that we receive from Above is being "honest" about this internal reality of being bound with "evil."

So internal evil, in this way, provides us the fruit of HONESTY. Which fruit I happen to very much enjoy participating in. I have no requirement to "hide" anything from God in Christ, as if He CAN NOT SEE ME within.

And it is there, within, that HE DIVIDES us. Literally "standing in our midst" dividing US from the very evil that we are presently planted into. This is the spiritual GROUND of darkness that we break forth from as we seek our GROWTH in His Light.

In the Old Testament this is called 'taking root downward' and producing fruit, upward. The "dung" of evil is literally in the roots of our ground.
Isaiah 27:6
He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

Isaiah 37:31
And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

Jesus, by reason of example, deployed the same matters here, for the tree which bore no fruit:

Luke 13:
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Internal evil in every way COMPELS us to produce fruit AGAINST it. Yet it is this same part of us, the source of our internal struggle to do so, to produce AGAINST IT.

The "first fruit" that emerges is HONESTY. And this is precious fruit, in His Sight.

We may even observe that Jacob came before his father of the flesh, Isaac, as a liar and a thief of his elder brothers inheritance, even drapped in goat skin. If that ain't an allegory of gigantic proportions.

And Jacob was BLESSED by that engagement, because he came before his father, HONESTLY.

Jacob, the very name of same, means WRESTLER. And we should see what he was "wrestling" with.

God in Christ will NOT knock us on the head for being honest.

smaller: There is no justification for lustful thoughts.

I agree.

Then you may see why I refuse to justify "the entirety" of my sweet old self, as much as my "internal" pride may lead me to conclude otherwise. I know that pride is of Satan, and can turn me into an instant hypocrite. Which I sincerely do not desire to be.

I agree.
It's a good thing that my justification is not determined by my righteousness, but by the righteousness of the one that my faith is in, the Christ.

Interesting observation. I had never thought about it in those terms but I think that I can agree with it.

I have actually found the TREASURY of Jesus, that man shall live by every Word of God.

And that also includes the BAD WORDS, which are meant to be applied to my own internal opposer, that is not me.

Gods Words are very effective if applied in this direction. We're just not used to coming before Him in this way.

 

[JLB]

Of course Jesus understands this dilemma. We are all put under the dominion of these "elemental" spirits, in effect to "train" us to be against them. To essentially "divide" ourselves away from any of that 'internal compelling.' The fact of this however does not depart.

The very first "spiritual fruit" that we receive from Above is being "honest" about this internal reality of being bound with "evil."

So internal evil, in this way, provides us the fruit of HONESTY. Which fruit I happen to very much enjoy participating in. I have no requirement to "hide" anything from God in Christ, as if He CAN NOT SEE ME within.

And it is there, within, that HE DIVIDES us. Literally "standing in our midst" dividing US from the very evil that we are presently planted into. This is the spiritual GROUND of darkness that we break forth from as we seek our GROWTH in His Light.

In the Old Testament this is called 'taking root downward' and producing fruit, upward. The "dung" of evil is literally in the roots of our ground.
Isaiah 27:6
He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

Isaiah 37:31
And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

Jesus, by reason of example, deployed the same matters here, for the tree which bore no fruit:

Luke 13:
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Internal evil in every way COMPELS us to produce fruit AGAINST it. Yet it is this same part of us, the source of our internal struggle to do so, to produce AGAINST IT.

The "first fruit" that emerges is HONESTY. And this is precious fruit, in His Sight.

We may even observe that Jacob came before his father of the flesh, Isaac, as a liar and a thief of his elder brothers inheritance, even drapped in goat skin. If that ain't an allegory of gigantic proportions.

And Jacob was BLESSED by that engagement, because he came before his father, HONESTLY.

Jacob, the very name of same, means WRESTLER. And we should see what he was "wrestling" with.

God in Christ will NOT knock us on the head for being honest.



Then you may see why I refuse to justify "the entirety" of my sweet old self, as much as my "internal" pride may lead me to conclude otherwise. I know that pride is of Satan, and can turn me into an instant hypocrite. Which I sincerely do not desire to be.


I have actually found the TREASURY of Jesus, that man shall live by every Word of God.

And that also includes the BAD WORDS, which are meant to be applied to my own internal opposer, that is not me.

Gods Words are very effective if applied in this direction. We're just not used to coming before Him in this way.

Sounds like Guyon, Molinos and Fenelon.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Sounds like Guyon, Molinos and Fenelon.


JLB

Fat chance.

I do NOT hold forth any form of mercy, love or forgiveness to my own "internal evil."

And lest of all will I allow it to turn me into a liar about it.

 

[JLB]

Fat chance.

I do NOT hold forth any form of mercy, love or forgiveness to my own "internal evil."

And lest of all will I allow it to turn me into a liar about it.

?

 

[Deborah13]

I have no requirement to "hide" anything from God in Christ, as if He CAN NOT SEE ME within.

God in Christ will NOT knock us on the head for being honest.

And it is very liberating to know this and produces a stronger trust in Him and love for God.
"Oh wretched man that I am..."

We may even observe that Jacob came before his father of the flesh, Isaac, as a liar and a thief of his elder brothers inheritance, even drapped in goat skin. If that ain't an allegory of gigantic proportions.

It is. I hadn't caught the significance of the goat skin before.

 

[smaller]

?

The 'quietist' proposals of theology are not anywhere in anyway, related to my observations.

 

[smaller]

And it is very liberating to know this and produces a stronger trust in Him and love for God.
"Oh wretched man that I am..."

It is. I hadn't caught the significance of the goat skin before.

I knew you saw pretty well a few years ago D.

And it is very liberating to know this and produces a stronger trust in Him and love for God.
"Oh wretched man that I am..."

It is. I hadn't caught the significance of the goat skin before.

It's an interesting and lengthy "allegorical" study. Same with the first tabernacle, in the wilderness, being "curtained" by goats hair.

Spun by women of wisdom, no less:

Exodus 35:26
And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' hair.

 

[Deborah13]

Exodus 35:26
And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' hair.

There is another one that I never saw. I'm glad I talked to you today.

 

[FreeGrace]

So you would agree that if we looked at Paul, by his own description, we "should" see both Paul, as a child of God, yet also, in his own flesh, the messenger of Satan? I agree and have made this sight from the start.

No, I don't agree. There is no reason to "see" any messenger of Satan, since what or who ever that is is NOT part of Paul the person.

I still have no idea why you keep bringing up this "messenger of Satan". Paul told us what it was for.

It is therefore impossible to look upon Paul as Paul only.

It is not only possible, but there is NO OTHER way to look at Paul, the person.

 

[smaller]

No, I don't agree. There is no reason to "see" any messenger of Satan, since what or who ever that is is NOT part of Paul the person.

When Paul stood upon the earth, Paul was saved, the messenger of Satan in his flesh was not.

There you have two diametrically opposed "end fates," both existing in what appears to you to be only one person.

I prefer the scriptural example. This sight is not opposed to your views in any case, other than you may have to consider that messenger of Satan in the flesh perhaps goes against an invalid doctrinal position that some hold to, that a messenger of Satan can not "be" in the flesh of a believer, even though Paul, an Apostle, clearly shows otherwise for himself.

 

[Obadiah]

I think it's time to either give a clear explanation of how this idea of several entities within one body fits into the topic of the OP (which is to cite reasons from scripture why you can't lose your salvation) or it's time to return to that topic.

Also, the topic is to cite reasons why you can't lose your salvation. This is not another OSAS vs Non-OSAS thread. We have enough of those already.

 

[smaller]

It's been explained abundantly. IF Paul was saved, which I might think we'd all agree to, even while having

-Every manner of concupiscence within him prompted by the law working adversely to the presence of indwelling sin, which indwelling sin Paul termed "no longer I" twice in Romans 7
-Evil present with him
-Temptation in his flesh
-A devil in his flesh
-Being the chief of sinners after salvation

None of the above kept Paul from being saved.

AND since there IS another party to view, that is NOT Paul, any claim of potential non-salvation against/accusation to "only a believer" would more than likely be an empty sight to start with, by comparison to Paul's conditions, which conditions would have not been apparent by a casual glance at Paul from the exterior,

NOR would those same conditions be apparent with any believer.

 

[Obadiah]

Very well. You've made your point. Let's continue on with other reasons you can't lose your salvation.

 

[smaller]

It would seem that dangling any believer over the potential pit of hell would not be "loving them" but rather threatening, bullying and intimidating them.

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.