The righteous Lord Jesus has not, does not, nor ever shall sin and trespass with His own body, nor members

[Hopeful 2]

It's core doctrine in every reformed church or off shoot of reformed theology.world wide.
Our Chief example of what a kind father should be like is not One Who exacts justice for sin (listen this time)...instead of the reason justice will be exacted for sin.

Then interpret the rest of scripture in light of it.

That's because you see the good Father viewing His own Son as sinful and being able to forgive sinners because of it.

I see evil men viewing Jesus as sinful and God being able to forgive even repentant murderers.

You know something Hopeful2? If people tortured and murdered my son I'd want to kill them. Our Father showed them mercy because His Son showed them mercy and the Son is just as our Father is.

The law is nothing with a witness. The law will be present at the judgement seat of Christ the Faithful Witness.
His Spirit in believers is Witness #2,

It is also written in your law (Deu.17:6), that the testimony of two men is true. Jn.18:7 KJV

If I were me I better watch what I say about Him.

You really have totally lost me.
Would you be kind enough to make a point ?
I was going to say "start over" but that might be too much.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So, what is actually stated doesn’t matter? It doesn’t matter that Paul said he "opposed" Peter, that Peter “stood condemned,” that Peter removed himself from the Greeks out of fear, that Peter acted hypocritically (sin), and led other Jews “astray” by his hypocrisy?

Your version of the KJ bible has skewed your POV.

I tend to believe that what is stated actually matters. Your position ignores the entire context of Galatians, which is the false gospel of works of the law being needed for justification.

You are believing somebody else's misinterpretation.

Exactly. They were Jewish Christian believers that falsely believed works of the law were necessary for justification. But, in Gal 1:6-10 Paul says that is a false gospel and that a person who preaches that false gospel is to be considered accursed.

Jewish Christians in Jerusalem were eager to follow the Law. (Acts 21:20)
Will they all lost on the day of judgement ?

The heresy of sinful perfection is leading you to misinterpret the clear meaning of the passage.

That POV accommodates sinful living.
It is ungodly.

There is simply no way to conclude that Peter didn’t sin here; the language Paul uses is very clear. He went against "the truth of the gospel" and began to imply by his actions that works of the law were necessary for justification.

The interpretation of language you are depending on, is by men without the Spirit.

Why do you fallaciously appeal to the KJV, even ignoring the Greek, as though the Bible was written in KJV English? Let’s look at the word Paul uses: sunupokrinomai. It means, “to act hypocritically in concert with,” according to Strong’s. Thayer’s says it means “1) to dissemble with” and “2) to act hypocritically with.”

Do you make no adjustments for company when you get visitors ?
Do you use a better grade of china or use better towels ?
Do you hide the liquor and cola when JWs come by to talk ?
Is that a sin ?
Had Peter stayed with the Gentiles, the Jews would have called him a Law breaker.
He and the rest of the dissemblers were caught in the middle.

What does “dissemble” mean? According to Merriam-Webster:
“1 : to hide under a false appearance
2: : to put on the appearance of”
“: to put on a false appearance : conceal facts, intentions, or feelings under some pretense”

It means to part company.

So, the ESV says “hypocrisy” because that is what Paul said in the Greek, and the KJV says the very same to thing, just using a different word for it. I strongly recommend you start using lexicons and dictionaries.

Hypocrisy to who ?
Not the visiting Jews.
To them, it would have been keeping with the Law...and would have made them feel welcome.

Additionally, you seem to be ignoring Paul saying that he “opposed” Peter “to his face, because he stood condemned.” That is strong language; too strong for something that wasn’t sin, which is what hypocrisy is.

Only your version of the KJ bible says condemned.
Could it be that your version of scripture wanted to assassinate the character of one of Jesus' apostles ?

Why does that matter? Supporting a false gospel just to please people is still supporting a false gospel. Paul states in 1:10 that he is not "trying to please man," but rather that he seeks the approval of God.

The gospel had nothing at all to do with it.
Both groups were already believers.

You won't condemn Peter when Paul does. Why is that?

Because the word "condemn" wasn't used in the bible.
I would hope I would have been as wise as Paul when he 'blamed' Peter to his face...for missing the chance to show believing Jews that believing Gentiles were their equals.

Do you know better than Paul? Referring to Peter’s actions as merely a "missed opportunity," is to purposefully downplay the sinfulness of Peter's actions.

You have bought the devil's lie about sinning apostles.
I don't.

No, but how is that relevant? Again, context matters.

It is called graciousness.
Peter tried it at Antioch, and it fell apart.

Why not? What about the context should leave you uncertain?

What context do you see ?

The passage in question, Acts 21:20-26, is speaking of Jews, not Gentiles.

So, as you advocate for a "when in Rome do as the Romans do" behavior, you are saying it is OK to follow the Law in Jerusalem but not in Antioch.
Isn't THAT hypocritical ?

The NT has a continuous and clear message: believers are saved from the penalty and power of sin, but still struggle with sin and will do so until glorification. We are called to be holy, with the help of the Holy Spirit, but nowhere are we said to be sinlessly perfect, or able to be, prior to glorification.

That POV is made quite clear in all the interpreters of scripture that accommodate sin.
You say we are called to be the impossible.
God knows it is possible to walk as Jesus walked.

You don’t because you ignore what God actually inspired John to write. That’s entirely on you. John wrote in Greek, not English, and certainly not KJV English.

What John has written doesn't accommodate sin.
What unholy men have interpreted does.

There sure is. Your position fallaciously begs the question while ignoring what John actually wrote. You appear to have studied this neither properly nor thoroughly enough.

It is very clear to me how to determine who "knows God".
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1 John 2:3-6.
If we "know God", we won't commit sin-walk in darkness.

Again, it makes no sense for John to be addressing known unbelievers, since what he says goes without saying—that they are walking in darkness. It also makes no sense for unbelievers to be continually confessing their sins, either from your point of view or mine. John is addressing those who profess to believers but deny that they sin.

He does so in order for the believers to determine who actually is walking in the light...and it isn't sinners.

See above answer.

Your POV incorporates sin into God.
Sinners cannot walk in God, who is the light.
They all walk in darkness and know not God.
They cannot even say they have fellowship with God, much less that they have no sin !

 

[Free]

In the past I cited Gods' law, the prophets,

And the OT sacrifices point to Christ's sacrifice and the reason for it: atonement.

Exo 29:14 But the flesh of the bull and its skin and its dung you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.

Exo 30:10 Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD.”

Lev 1:4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Lev 1:5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

Lev 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the LORD's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,
Lev 4:3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the LORD.
...
Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
...
Lev 4:22 “When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:23 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish,
Lev 4:24 and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
...
Lev 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
...
Lev 4:32 “If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish
Lev 4:33 and lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 5:5 when he realizes his guilt in any of these and confesses the sin he has committed,
Lev 5:6 he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
Lev 5:7 “But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
Lev 5:8 He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first the one for the sin offering. He shall wring its head from its neck but shall not sever it completely,
Lev 5:9 and he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar; it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:10 Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 5:11 “But if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two pigeons, then he shall bring as his offering for the sin that he has committed a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it and shall put no frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:12 And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take a handful of it as its memorial portion and burn this on the altar, on the LORD's food offerings; it is a sin offering.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

(All ESV.)

 

[Free]

His Son and His apostles all teaching a heart of repentance caused by Christs' sacrifice which brings forgiveness. That heart comes from seeing how the Son of God was terribly sinned against, yet continued loving those who hated Him.

Substitutionary (or penal) atonement is contrary to all scripture.

On the contrary, it is precisely what is stated throughout Scripture:

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. (ESV)

Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (ESV)

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. (ESV)

Luk 24:25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” (ESV)

Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (ESV)

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (ESV)

Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. (ESV)

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)

Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
…
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? (ESV)

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
…
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (ESV)

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— (ESV)

Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (ESV)

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.
Heb 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.
Heb 13:13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. (ESV)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (ESV)

1Jn 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (ESV)

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (ESV)

And any father who thinks it just to kill the innocent for the guilty is an evil maniac and that goes 70 x 7 for God.

Then, you have some very wrong and evil thoughts about God that you need to repent of. The issue is this:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

God set out the terms of payment in the OT sacrificial system, as I've shown above--blood is needed to make atonement for sins. If God didn't pay the penalty for our sins, then we must pay it. If he didn't pay it and doesn't require us to pay, then he is not just, and is not God.

Besides, you've missed many other verses:

Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
..
Joh 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
Joh 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (ESV)

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (ESV)

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (ESV)

The Son did it willingly out of love; the Father did not force him.

“To focus on Jesus as just an example is to reduce him from sovereign Savior to ethical coach and to transform the gospel into law. That Jesus can't help you.”—Timothy Keller

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Is there a difference between being a sinner and committing a sin?

Is there a difference between "I am fat" and "I have fat"? Is there a difference between "I am diabetic" and "I have diabetes?" Is there a difference between "I am a homosexual" and "I have a same sex attraction?" Is there a difference between "I am guilty" and "I have guilt"? In common human logic, what you do defines who you are; In God's logic, however, what you do REFLECTS who you are. We're living in a broken and sinful world surrounded by evil spirits, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and everyday we suffer the consequences of our sins and others'. What makes the difference is our faith and hope in our Lord and Savior, knowing that greater is He who is in us than he who is in this world. Although our sin nature still exists, we have a new nature in Christ, a new identity, which empowers us to overcome the sin nature and walk in the newness of life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is there a difference between "I am fat" and "I have fat"? Is there a difference between "I am diabetic" and "I have diabetes?" Is there a difference between "I am a homosexual" and "I have a same sex attraction?" Is there a difference between "I am guilty" and "I have guilt"? In common human logic, what you do defines who you are; In God's logic, however, what you do REFLECTS who you are. We're living in a broken and sinful world surrounded by evil spirits, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and everyday we suffer the consequences of our sins and others'. What makes the difference is our faith and hope in our Lord and Savior, knowing that greater is He who is in us than he who is in this world. Although our sin nature still exists, we have a new nature in Christ, a new identity, which empowers us to overcome the sin nature and walk in the newness of life.

Try again when you get serious about the subject matter.

 

[Free]

Your version of the KJ bible has skewed your POV.

My version of the KJ Bible is the KJV. But, I also use other versions, as any person not trained in koine Greek should to get a better understanding.

You are believing somebody else's misinterpretation.

You lose credibility with statements like that, as it shows you really haven't studied Galatians, at all. It has nothing to do with "somebody else's misinterpretation" and everything to do with the clear content of what Paul wrote. This goes back to basic biblical interpretation and understanding context.

It's worth pointing out that you didn't even try to provide an alternative understanding.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (ESV)

First, we see that Paul brings up the false gospel being taught and that such a one should be accursed. Then can see from verse 10 that it has something to do with "trying to please man." After some more talk about the gospel and Paul's authority, he brings up the incident with Peter, clearly as an example of what he is talking about throughout the entire letter. So, what follows that example is important:

Gal 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (ESV)

Paul brings up the fact that "we [likely he and Peter] know that a person is not justified by works of the law." And that clearly continues into chapter 3:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
...
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” (ESV)

That is precisely why Paul says that "their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel" (2:14). And on he goes, continuing to talk about adding works to salvation:

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!
Gal 4:11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. (ESV)

Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is.
Gal 5:11 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed.
Gal 5:12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! (ESV)

It's also worth noting that Paul states the following, which clearly speaks of believers helping other believers "caught in any transgression," by restoring them:

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (ESV)

In the context, "Bear one another's burdens" would refer to the temptations and moral failings of other believers.

Jewish Christians in Jerusalem were eager to follow the Law. (Acts 21:20)
Will they all lost on the day of judgement ?

Perhaps, if they thought those works were necessary for justification.

That POV accommodates sinful living.
It is ungodly.

That was your response to this: The heresy of sinful perfection is leading you to misinterpret the clear meaning of the passage.

Finally, we agree that belief in sinful perfection accommodates sinful living and is ungodly.

 

[Free]

The interpretation of language you are depending on, is by men without the Spirit.

Now you are sinfully judging others, and that based on the fact that you lack serious study of the passage and book in question. Tsk tsk. That is sin. I now have clear proof that you sin.

Do you make no adjustments for company when you get visitors ?
Do you use a better grade of china or use better towels ?
Do you hide the liquor and cola when JWs come by to talk ?
Is that a sin ?

Apples and oranges. False analogies.

Had Peter stayed with the Gentiles, the Jews would have called him a Law breaker.
He and the rest of the dissemblers were caught in the middle.

So what? You have just proven that Peter, unlike Paul (Gal 1:10), chose to please people rather than God, at that particular time. That is sin.

It means to part company.

Provide evidence. Your opinions on the meanings of Greek words carries no weight.

Hypocrisy to who ?
Not the visiting Jews.
To them, it would have been keeping with the Law...and would have made them feel welcome.

To everyone. It's putting on false appearances. It's essentially lying about what he believes.

Only your version of the KJ bible says condemned.
Could it be that your version of scripture wanted to assassinate the character of one of Jesus' apostles ?

My version of the KJ Bible says: "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed," in Gal 2:11. The Greek says what it says and that is what you continue to ignore, making fallacious appeals to the KJV instead.

Two things. First, it's notable that you ignored the use of "opposed" (ESV) or "withstood." That means you're ignoring context that disagrees with your position. Second, the Greek word translated as "condemned" in the ESV is kataginōskō, and means "to find fault with," "to blame," "to accuse," or "to condemn." It's used three times in the NT and in the KJV it is translated as "condemn" the other two times (1 John 3:20-21).

Not that it matters, since Paul was clearly putting blame on Peter for misleading other Jews and undermining the gospel with his hypocrisy. People don't get "withstood . . . to the face" and "blamed" for doing good, not even in the KJV.

The gospel had nothing at all to do with it.
Both groups were already believers.

The gospel had everything to do with it. He was now implying to the Greeks that they had to obey the law to be fully accepted as believers. It is to add works for salvation.

Because the word "condemn" wasn't used in the bible.
I would hope I would have been as wise as Paul when he 'blamed' Peter to his face...for missing the chance to show believing Jews that believing Gentiles were their equals.

Again, this shows your lack of study. Here is the KJV:

1Jn 3:20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;

As I pointed out already, "condemn(s)" is the same Greek word used in Gal 1:11. At least the ESV is consistent in all three instances where this Greek word appears.

You have bought the devil's lie about sinning apostles.
I don't.

I believe Scripture as it is written.

It is called graciousness.
Peter tried it at Antioch, and it fell apart.

It has nothing to do with graciousness. Graciousness is done out of love, not fear.

What context do you see ?

I asked you a question: What about the context should leave you uncertain?

So, as you advocate for a "when in Rome do as the Romans do" behavior, you are saying it is OK to follow the Law in Jerusalem but not in Antioch.
Isn't THAT hypocritical ?

Once again, the context is different.

That POV is made quite clear in all the interpreters of scripture that accommodate sin.
You say we are called to be the impossible.
God knows it is possible to walk as Jesus walked.

All interpretations, including the KJV.

What John has written doesn't accommodate sin.
What unholy men have interpreted does.

No, what John writes, as do the other NT writers, is that believers still struggle with sin as they go through sanctification. That is why John says believers are to continually confess their sins for forgiveness.

It is very clear to me how to determine who "knows God".
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1 John 2:3-6.
If we "know God", we won't commit sin-walk in darkness.

He does so in order for the believers to determine who actually is walking in the light...and it isn't sinners.

Exactly. I agree.

Your POV incorporates sin into God.

Not at all.

Sinners cannot walk in God, who is the light.
They all walk in darkness and know not God.
They cannot even say they have fellowship with God, much less that they have no sin !

Again, I agree.

 

[journeyman]

You really have totally lost me.
Would you be kind enough to make a point ?

Sure. The sins of mankind were inflicted on Jesus, not "teansferred" onto Him.

 

[journeyman]

My version of the KJ Bible is the KJV. But, I also use other versions, as any person not trained in koine Greek should to get a better understanding.


You lose credibility with statements like that, as it shows you really haven't studied Galatians, at all. It has nothing to do with "somebody else's misinterpretation" and everything to do with the clear content of what Paul wrote. This goes back to basic biblical interpretation and understanding context.

It's worth pointing out that you didn't even try to provide an alternative understanding.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (ESV)

First, we see that Paul brings up the false gospel being taught and that such a one should be accursed. Then can see from verse 10 that it has something to do with "trying to please man." After some more talk about the gospel and Paul's authority, he brings up the incident with Peter, clearly as an example of what he is talking about throughout the entire letter. So, what follows that example is important:

Gal 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (ESV)

Paul brings up the fact that "we [likely he and Peter] know that a person is not justified by works of the law." And that clearly continues into chapter 3:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
...
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” (ESV)

That is precisely why Paul says that "their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel" (2:14). And on he goes, continuing to talk about adding works to salvation:

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!
Gal 4:11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. (ESV)

Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is.
Gal 5:11 But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed.
Gal 5:12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! (ESV)

It's also worth noting that Paul states the following, which clearly speaks of believers helping other believers "caught in any transgression," by restoring them:

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (ESV)

In the context, "Bear one another's burdens" would refer to the temptations and moral failings of other believers.


Perhaps, if they thought those works were necessary for justification.


That was your response to this: The heresy of sinful perfection is leading you to misinterpret the clear meaning of the passage.

Finally, we agree that belief in sinful perfection accommodates sinful living and is ungodly.

We've been thriugh all this before. You believe Christ suffered shame in place of sinners. I believe Chrust suffered shame in place of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

My version of the KJ Bible is the KJV. But, I also use other versions, as any person not trained in koine Greek should to get a better understanding.

Your version of the KJ bible turned "blamed" into "condemned".
Had Peter actually been condemned, what was his penance ?

You lose credibility with statements like that, as it shows you really haven't studied Galatians, at all. It has nothing to do with "somebody else's misinterpretation" and everything to do with the clear content of what Paul wrote. This goes back to basic biblical interpretation and understanding context.

I guess the fruit of the interpretation isn't important to you.

It's worth pointing out that you didn't even try to provide an alternative understanding.

The alternate, or real, understanding is written in the KJ bible.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (ESV)

First, we see that Paul brings up the false gospel being taught and that such a one should be accursed.

Yes, as circumcision doesn't matter for salvation.

Then can see from verse 10 that it has something to do with "trying to please man." After some more talk about the gospel and Paul's authority, he brings up the incident with Peter, clearly as an example of what he is talking about throughout the entire letter. So, what follows that example is important:

I see the mention of "man" in juxtaposition to following God.
Man said circumcision was essential to salvation, but God doesn't.

Paul brings up the fact that "we [likely he and Peter] know that a person is not justified by works of the law." And that clearly continues into chapter 3:

Yes, as circumcision and other points of Law don't matter anymore fro salvation.

That is precisely why Paul says that "their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel" (2:14). And on he goes, continuing to talk about adding works to salvation:

Right.
Do you beleive that circumcision was no longer practiced by the believing Jews ?
Paul's letter was to Gentiles.

It's also worth noting that Paul states the following, which clearly speaks of believers helping other believers "caught in any transgression," by restoring them:
Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (ESV)

Did you see the difference between those who are spiritual and those who re not ?
The spiritual are tasked with the conversion of the unspiritual.
The unspiritual man's conduct betrayed their lack of prior conversion.

In the context, "Bear one another's burdens" would refer to the temptations and moral failings of other believers.

Posers would be a better term for the ones pretending to be servants of the Lord.

Perhaps, if they thought those works were necessary for justification.

According to the truth, they are not necessary for salvation.
So doing them is neither good nor bad.

That was your response to this: The heresy of sinful perfection is leading you to misinterpret the clear meaning of the passage.

Again, the ability to serve God is not only a command from God and Jesus, but referred to multiple times by Paul, Peter, and John.
The heresy is saying the ability to serve God perfectly is a work of the devil.
It is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

Finally, we agree that belief in sinful perfection accommodates sinful living and is ungodly.

Just as you have misinterpreted my words, so too you misinterpret God's word.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sure. The sins of mankind were inflicted on Jesus, not "transferred" onto Him.

The end result of using either word, is the same.
Jesus died for our sins.
What better reason could there be to remain faithful to Him through any temptation.

 

[Free]

We've been thriugh all this before. You believe Christ suffered shame in place of sinners. I believe Chrust suffered shame in place of God.

What do you mean by "Christ suffered shame in place of God"? What is shame? Is it possible for God to suffer shame?

What about what the Bible says? Let's look at a few of the verses I provided:

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
...
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. (ESV)

That unequivocally states the reason God sent his Son to die--"for our transgressions;" "for our iniquities;" to make "an offering for guilt;" to bear "the sin of many."


Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (ESV)

Again, we are clearly "justified by his blood," that is, declared righteous.


2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (ESV)

This reiterates what Paul said in Rom 5. There was and is no other way to be justified.


Heb 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. (ESV)

His blood sanctifies us. There was and is no other way to be sanctified.


1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (ESV)

This clearly states that Jesus, being perfectly righteous, died for the sins of the unrighteous, so that we could be reconciled to God. That sounds just like the OT sacrificial system where an animal without blemish was to be offered for atonement.


1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (ESV)

Jesus's death effectively averted God's wrath against those who believe.


To sum then, we clearly see that God sent his Son to die "for our transgressions," "for our iniquities," to make "an offering for guilt," to bear "the sin of many," so that we can be justified, to sanctify us, to reconcile us to himself, and to avert his wrath.

Paul says that "the wages of sin is death"--that is the penalty for our sin. So, who pays that penalty? That price must be paid or God is unjust. If Jesus didn't pay the price by dying for our sins, then we must pay the price, which means Jesus's death could not be "the propitiation for our sins." Then where is the free gift of salvation? If we have to pay what is due, then it isn't free nor is it a gift.

 

[journeyman]

The end result of using either word, is the same.
Jesus died for our sins.

Out of His mercy, instead of calling Moses (the law) against them. Jesus wasn@t put to death according to the law. He was conspired against, contrary to the law. He was falsely accused contrary to the law. So He annuled the law, instead of changing, convicting and executing sinners.

What better reason could there be to remain faithful to Him through any temptation.

None when we consider the love our Savior showed towards sinners, instead of annihilating them as any earthly kings would have done for such treachery. Conspiring to kill the King of kings? Moses said,

Anyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be completely cut off from God’s people. Act.3:23 NLT

The Messiah taught repentance over what was done to Gods' sacrifice.

 

[journeyman]

What do you mean by "Christ suffered shame in place of God"? What is shame? Is it possible for God to suffer shame?

You don't seem to understand Jesus is God.

I hid not my face from shame and spitting. Isa.50:6 KJV
O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? Psa.4:2 KJV

We get to suffer shame for Jesus like He syffered shame for our Father,

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Lk.10:16 KJV

I think we better get what the Judge of all living and dead said correct.

What about what the Bible says? Let's look at a few of the verses I provided:

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

I told you before. The "chastisement of our peace" is how God corrects every son He receives. The NT says Jesus subjected Himself to His Fathers' correction. As an example to us,

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction ofsinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Heb.12:2-7 KJV

Because our King loved showing sinners, His enemies (us), Gods' compassion, He endured sin against that would make any sane person sick. Any loving father in his right mind would be disgusted by such sin committed against his son as God is.
Isa.53 teaches how God was pleased at the perfect love His Son showed toward sinners who despised Him.

I will not speak to you again unless you agree Isaiah 53 says Jesus was chastised by His Father as all Gods' children are.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Try again when you get serious about the subject matter.

I'm serious about the difference between behavior and identity.

 

[Free]

You don't seem to understand Jesus is God.

Of course I do, but stating that doesn't make sense in the context of your claims.

I hid not my face from shame and spitting. Isa.50:6 KJV
O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? Psa.4:2 KJV

We get to suffer shame for Jesus like He syffered shame for our Father,

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Lk.10:16 KJV

I don't see how that really answers my questions. You seem to be trying to answer my questions--"What do you mean by Christ suffered shame in place of God"? What is shame? Is it possible for God to suffer shame?--by first stating that Jesus is God, but that would mean God suffered shame, not "Christ suffered shame in place of God." Then you state that Jesus "suffered shame for our Father." So, now it seems you're saying Jesus suffered shame in place of the Father.

You're saying different things. Again, I ask those questions: "What do you mean by Christ suffered shame in place of God"? What is shame? Is it possible for God to suffer shame? I must also ask, what do you mean by Jesus "suffered shame for our Father" and what would the significance of that be? It really is important that you answer these questions.

I think we better get what the Judge of all living and dead said correct.

Of course, but he said a lot of things.

I told you before. The "chastisement of our peace" is how God corrects every son He receives. The NT says Jesus subjected Himself to His Fathers' correction. As an example to us,

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Heb.12:2-7 KJV

First, a serious problem is that you say "Jesus subjected Himself to His Fathers' correction," which implies Jesus needed correcting, which itself implies he sinned. That is very problematic, don't you agree? Second, the Isaiah 53 passage has nothing to do with "how God corrects every son He receives." It only has to do with what that chapter is talking about, which is even in the same verse: "But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed."

It also has to do with the next verse:

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Chastisement is correcting punishment and discipline for sin. That suggests that Jesus isn't God nor sinless.

Because our King loved showing sinners, His enemies (us), Gods' compassion, He endured sin against that would make any sane person sick. Any loving father in his right mind would be disgusted by such sin committed against his son as God is.
Isa.53 teaches how God was pleased at the perfect love His Son showed toward sinners who despised Him.

It does? Where? Where is that stated anywhere in the Bible?

I will not speak to you again unless you agree Isaiah 53 says Jesus was chastised by His Father as all Gods' children are.

I can't agree because that simply isn't in the context and suggests that Jesus sinned and was in need of discipline or punishment to correct him. The chapter is very clear that the death of Christ was because of our sin, to pay the penalty that God demands for our sin. It could hardly be stated any clearer.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm serious about the difference between behavior and identity.

Sorry Carry....I'm not meaning to spar with you.
Behavior and Identity.
Good.

Does my behavior IDENTIFY me?
Am I identified by my BEHAVIOR?

See.

This is not what I'm talking about.
It's not a philosophical debate.

Here's the question again......and I even forget why it came up.

IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING A SINNER
AND
SINNING

I'll give you my answer ITMT:

There is a huge difference and the NT teaches that there is.
A sinner will not make it to heaven.
A person that sins will.

Why?

A sinner precludes that the person is not interested in God or in following God's ways.
You could say that this is a behavioral aspect of the person...

A person that sins implies that he knows what sin is.
He's probably aware of God and has some kind of desire to follow God and be in relationship with Him.
BUT, alas, this person will be committing a sin every now and then. BUT HE IS NOT A SINNER.
He is a son of God that commits a sin.
You could say that this is an identity aspect of the person.

We are identified as sons of God that are sinning AT THAT MOMENT.
Not behavioral sinners that cannot possibly be a son of God.


OK. I picked up on your verbiage.
It came in handy!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

See.

This is not what I'm talking about.
It's not a philosophical debate.

But behavior is what everybody sees, we're all defined by our behaviors, because they see outward appearance, only God sees the heart, isn't it. And I believe that's the difference between sinning and sinner.

 

[GodsGrace]

But behavior is what everybody sees, we're all defined by our behaviors, because they see outward appearance, only God sees the heart, isn't it. And I believe that's the difference between sinning and sinner.

But we're not talking here about what people see.
We're talking about Christianity and what GOD sees.

Outward appearance means very little when it's heaven and hell that are the final result.

What do you make of the difference that GOD sees between a sinner and sin?

Isn't this what really matters?