Bible Study The Straight and narrow now looks curvy like a snake.

[Sinthesis]

There is a difference between knowing the truth and lying about it, versus being mistaken about the truth thus believing in something false. The former is deceptive and not Christian behavior. The latter is unfortunate ignorance which I'm sure all of us Christians exhibit in some form or another.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, I live in Brisbane, Qld., Australia. However, I've lived for 7 years in the USA and Canada (mostly USA) with my family back in the 1970s and 1980s. If you think God is trampled underfoot in the USA, come to Australia and you'll get an even more severe dose.

You might like to read this article, 'Belief In God: Is The New Atheism Influencing Australians?' It states:

While 60 per cent of Australians said they had not changed their belief in or rejection of God, another 20 per cent had changed what they believed and another 20 per cent were not sure if they had changed or not:

• 21% said they don’t believe in God now and never have;
• 16% say they don’t believe in God, but used to;
• 4% say they believe in God now, but didn’t used to;
• 39% say they believe in God and always have; and
• 20% said they could not choose or did not answer the question.

In other words, for every person who had moved from not believing to believing in God, four Australians had moved in the opposite direction.​

One leading Australian mass media magnate, Kerry Packer, who had a near-death experience 15 years before his actual death in 2005, said of the near-death experience, 'I've been on the other side and let me tell you, son, there's [expletive] nothing there' (source). He said this over and over.

I agree that things were better when we could mention God in the classroom, but when a teacher does not believe in God, who is the God or god being referred to?

I was in a USA university classroom in a biopsychology class when I questioned an issue in a text book and the professor said to me in front of the class, 'You views are [expletive]'. He later apologised to me privately for his language against me, but he never said a word of apology in front of the class. I know what it's like, from personal experience, to be intimidated and assaulted for my faith in a USA class.

I believe Christians do have equal rights not to be ridiculed for their faith when engaged in education. When this issue comes up, I have asked the professor if he would attack a Muslim student like that. The professors go silent. When I raise issues in letters-to-the-editor to my local newspaper about the discrimination against Christians, I ask a similar question about whether the paper would attack Muslims in the same way. Most often, the question about Muslims is censored if my letter is published. I had an example of this in a letter published this month in my local, weekly freebie.

Oz

Very interesting regarding the Muslim reply you give, or ask, the professors. This is the whole point I was trying to make. They sure don't let themsleves be trampled upon! Christians, OTOH, are an easy target. Look at how they're treated in movies. Mr. Gibson shows respect, but others always show them as silly people who believe strange things. How many priests have been killed by satan's power because God apparently has none?
How many times has the word "Jesus" been used as an expletive?

I think the problem is due to what Douglas is talking about. We've lost our sense of direction. God no longer holds power for us. Christianity is persecuted all over the world and in many way. Quietly in the U.S. with words, but still persecuted. It's a sad state of affairs.

I have acquaintences in Perth. Religion doesn't seem to be too important there either.
Ditto for Europe. And I don't see any change on the way...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

At times we need the State to intervene to protect children in abusive situations. We have a Dept. of Child Safety (Human Services) that does this here in Qld with children in care (foster care). We need such a govt arrangement - sadly.

Hi Ozspen,

I think the govt does have to intervene sometimes.

I don't think this is what jasonc is referring to. I know what he's talking about.
In the "old days" kids were raised by their parents. Nowadays both parents work and the kids are raised by either a nursery or a playschool staff. This could be private or it could be state-run.

Also, we hear a lot about the fact that the school knows more about how to raise a child than the parents do!
This is a common belief now. What parents used to be responsible for has now been transferred to the state. Sex education would be one way they're taking over. There's talk of it starting in kindergarten! Parents rights are being obliterated. They're being told that the state (teachers) knows more about how to raise kids than they do.

I do believe this is what jasonc is referring to. Sorry if I cut in.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I know that but this is beyond that.the state of ky has banned pastors in prisons ministering to gay youth who voluntarily seek their council.I highly doubt if jacI becomes a lesbian and I tell her no girls in my home the state will let fly or simply tell her it's a sin.it's being pushed in the uk that creationism is child abuse

This is interesting. It's happening in the states too. It's child abuse because we're teaching children fairy tales instead of THE TRUTH.

This is not true in all of Europe. Luckily. But it's just a matter of time...

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was distorting nothing. I was seeking clarification.

Fair enough.

 

[smaller]

My experiences and opinions of the churches, plural, is admittedly not good. Never has been. When I grew up RCC's and Protestants were still condemning each others to hell, openly, from the pulpits. In addition there was always a myriad of side churches. The SDA'ists. Evangelical Free's. Pentacostals. Scores of various Baptist sects. Scores of various Protestant sects as well. And a whole slew of other sects.

Functionally there were the myriad of churches. And then the balance of the populace who didn't want to get involved with trying to have to sort through the pieces and perhaps insult all the others, and many just gave up on the whole deal altogether.

It's really just been one big old batch of divisions for a long long time. People may have some fond memories of certain things that transpired therein, but overall there's never been any kind of "unity" in my lifetime.

I don't think that the new generations are all that much interested in divisions of these natures in any case. The divided churches have been taking a long slow tumble into irrelevant obscurity in society.

To see these various divisions tumble away doesn't bother me one bit. Jesus has been presented by these various churches as some odd cut to pieces thing that nobody can agree on anyway.

One of my aunt's, a dear faithful RCC born and bred married into the Lutheran family, now deceased, and I used to sit up all night talking about Jesus and religion in general. I lamented these various postures to her. We very much enjoyed dissecting the components together. In the end, she understood church as a place to be married and buried. All the exercises in between gave you the rights to those 2 major milestones of life. But we both understood that there really wasn't much in the form of coalescence.

What it is more than anything today are various "institutions" which are divisions, of sacerdotal systems, providing wage sustenance to the priest class bearers/upholders of the systems of divisions, living out their last gasps of relevancy.

That kind of "priesthood" system really is going away. The priest class in society is deteriorating and dying out. But that is what it is. A priest class in society. A lot of bits and pieces.

I suspect that as this gives out, something new, maybe even better, will take it's place. The functional reality is that as society itself, the middle and lower classes, become progressively poorer, they just can't afford to pay for the extravagance of having a priest class and all the accouterments of same. I suspect that there may be a reversion, back to home churches.

Which is kinda where things started anyway.

 

[smaller]

One sect that I am seeing grow in my area is Mormonism. Kind of frightening to me. Quite a few new, what do they call them? (googling) Stakes, cropping up all over.

They are quite organized. A friend of mine married the daughter of a local bishop, so I've had a minor look into their internals from afar.

This bishop meets with every adult member of the congregation. Get's all up in their personal business and affairs. Basically manages, from the lead stake/church chair, every aspect of the members lives. Tells them who to do business with, and how, internally, with church members. Monitors their sex lives. Reproduction goals. The whole nine yards. Talk about uber control freaks. I don't know if they'll last, but they do seem to be growing. But then again I also know a whole lot of people who have left their system. I have a really hard time doing business with any of them. They are basically a 'closed' sect.

Again, I personally don't care to be that close to anyone, but whatever. They are a pretty tight knit group. Growth by virtue of birth numbers. Kind of the old RCC posture but with more control. White undies, all of dat.

 

[OzSpen]

Very interesting regarding the Muslim reply you give, or ask, the professors. This is the whole point I was trying to make. They sure don't let themsleves be trampled upon! Christians, OTOH, are an easy target. Look at how they're treated in movies. Mr. Gibson shows respect, but others always show them as silly people who believe strange things. How many priests have been killed by satan's power because God apparently has none?
How many times has the word "Jesus" been used as an expletive?

I think the problem is due to what Douglas is talking about. We've lost our sense of direction. God no longer holds power for us. Christianity is persecuted all over the world and in many way. Quietly in the U.S. with words, but still persecuted. It's a sad state of affairs.

I have acquaintences in Perth. Religion doesn't seem to be too important there either.
Ditto for Europe. And I don't see any change on the way...

Wondering

Wondering,

Matt 24:9-11 (NIV) tells us that we can expect this to happen, '9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people'.

Serving Jesus is not seen as important in my country, even though many of the institutions of Australia have been built on the foundation of Christian values. There are a few evangelical Christians in our federal parliament, but they are FEW. The Premier of the State of NSW, Mike Baird, is an evangelical who attends an evangelical Anglican church in the Sydney region. See: http://www.biblesociety.org.au/news/christian-newly-elected-premier-new-south-wales. My local MP goes to an evangelical Baptist church.

I take the line publicly that I need to be God's salt and light in a putrid and dark culture that has forgotten about God and is giving Him a flick.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Ozspen,

I think the govt does have to intervene sometimes.

I don't think this is what jasonc is referring to. I know what he's talking about.
In the "old days" kids were raised by their parents. Nowadays both parents work and the kids are raised by either a nursery or a playschool staff. This could be private or it could be state-run.

Also, we hear a lot about the fact that the school knows more about how to raise a child than the parents do!
This is a common belief now. What parents used to be responsible for has now been transferred to the state. Sex education would be one way they're taking over. There's talk of it starting in kindergarten! Parents rights are being obliterated. They're being told that the state (teachers) knows more about how to raise kids than they do.

I do believe this is what jasonc is referring to. Sorry if I cut in.

Wondering

I can agree with that assessment. My wife and I made the decision from way back that once the children began to arrive, I would be the sole breadwinner as a male and she would be the homemaker. It was a joint decision we made. However, all 3 of our children and their spouses are in the work force today. Only one is at home to raise a newborn baby and she will be home for only 12 months before putting the child into childcare when she returns to employment.

Because of this situation, the govt encourages both husbands and wives to be in the workforce and provide a subsidy to my daughter-in-law to have paid parental leave for the 12 months. Then she returns to work.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

Matt 24:9-11 (NIV) tells us that we can expect this to happen, '9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people'.

Serving Jesus is not seen as important in my country, even though many of the institutions of Australia have been built on the foundation of Christian values. There are a few evangelical Christians in our federal parliament, but they are FEW. The Premier of the State of NSW, Mike Baird, is an evangelical who attends an evangelical Anglican church in the Sydney region. See: http://www.biblesociety.org.au/news/christian-newly-elected-premier-new-south-wales. My local MP goes to an evangelical Baptist church.

I take the line publicly that I need to be God's salt and light in a putrid and dark culture that has forgotten about God and is giving Him a flick.

Oz

I had a couple of friends here yesterday. We were talking about Mathew 24 and also 2 Peter 2:1...
Let me tell you that I live in the land of the Pope and there is more atheism here than maybe even in Australia. Except maybe for the Northern countries and France.

There will always be a remnant...

And that remnant is necessary so that the road doesn't take a full 180 degree turn. Or is it 360? I'm not a mathematician, but you know what I mean!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow. Parallel lives! I also thought it was important to stay home and did so for 15 years and then went back to a part-time job with low pay but I didn't care. It was more a pass time than a job anyway.

Woman's lib has been great, no? Before they only had the home to take care of. Now they have to do that AND go to work AND think about the kids - when they're home! I see my son and his wife, it's sad but it's necessary.

It does seem like some couples are starting to realize this and maybe there'll be some change in the future.
I like to have hope.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

One sect that I am seeing grow in my area is Mormonism. Kind of frightening to me. Quite a few new, what do they call them? (googling) Stakes, cropping up all over.

They are quite organized. A friend of mine married the daughter of a local bishop, so I've had a minor look into their internals from afar.

This bishop meets with every adult member of the congregation. Get's all up in their personal business and affairs. Basically manages, from the lead stake/church chair, every aspect of the members lives. Tells them who to do business with, and how, internally, with church members. Monitors their sex lives. Reproduction goals. The whole nine yards. Talk about uber control freaks. I don't know if they'll last, but they do seem to be growing. But then again I also know a whole lot of people who have left their system. I have a really hard time doing business with any of them. They are basically a 'closed' sect.

Again, I personally don't care to be that close to anyone, but whatever. They are a pretty tight knit group. Growth by virtue of birth numbers. Kind of the old RCC posture but with more control. White undies, all of dat.

Hi Smaller,

Your two posts have gotten me rather down. First because of this Mormons thing. How could anyone be so willing to be directed by another human? I mean, You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. You could take that a lot of ways. These people don't sound too free to me. OTOH, maybe some need this type of direction.

And your other post above regarding the churches. Gosh. Leave me a little hope! God will always find a way. What do you think of this one world religion some would want? Plus, it's kind of good that some weeding be done.

Wondering

 

[OzSpen]

I do not understand you saying some do not have easy access to a Bible; if they can read this forum then they have access to many bibles online. So maybe I misunderstood your meaning

When I spoke of 'some Christians who do not have easy access to a Bible' I was referring to those in our world who are Christian but do not access to a computer or a Bible in their own languages. Wycliffe Bible Translators tell us that there are still approx. 1,800 languages in the world that do not even have one verse of the Bible translated in that language. How can those Christians read their Bible.

Then we have the problem of low literacy levels in some areas of Western society.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Wondering,

In my understanding, Open Theism is an heretical view that denies some fundamentals (or redefines them), some of which you mentioned.

As for the problem of evil, some of the greatest of theologians have grappled with the biblical material. I've concluded that God allowed it to happen (he is not the cause of it, except when He brings judgment through calamity - The Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, etc). Evil will end when the Eschaton arrives. In the midst of evil, God has provided a way of salvation to deal with the effects of sin through Christ's salvation.

But I also have questions that remain for which I do not have satisfactory answers - yet. Those answers are getting closer and closer with age (and death).

Thank you for your encouraging engagement with me.

Blessings in Christ,
Oz

Hi Oz

I read a little of the open theism link.

I don't agree with it. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. Otherwise, He wouldn't be God. This reminds me of the problem of reconciling man's free will with the Providence of God. IOW, nothing happens unless God allows it. Even if it's evil. I've come to accept evil and I don't think about it too much. Mainly because there's no answer to evil. Every 10 years or so I feel like I've figured it out. Then I think of a reason why it doesn't work. So I've stopped thinking about it.

I had read When Bad Things Happen to Good People many years ago while I was still seeking the answer. Of course, the author had no real answer (a Rabbi). The only concept that makes any sense to me now is that there are two gods of equal power, but that's heretical so we won't go there.

If God knows the future, is He creating it? I don't think so - but this is a bit too philosophical for me. If God knows I'm going to have pancakes for breakfast tomorrow, that doesn't mean I couldn't have toast. He just KNEW I'd pick pancakes. Is it this simple?? Probably not.

We do try very hard to figure out God. I don't think we could. If we could He wouldn't be God!

Jeremiah 1:4-5
Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, 5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Psalm 139:16
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Douglas is right, we're headed down a curvy road. In the last days many false prophets will fool even the believers. Mathew 24.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

overall there's never been any kind of "unity" in my lifetime.

That's because you're looking at the 'church of the world'.
When I got born again I discovered the true church of God where there is perfect unity via the Holy Spirit. That hardly means doctrinal unity as some think unity must look like. What it means is meeting people who are on fire and devoted to Christ. We are perfectly united in Christ. It's an awesome thing to meet another member of the true church and celebrate the greatness of our common fellowship with God by the Holy Spirit. It's an even more awesome thing when you can delicately gather a group of us together in a 'church' service. The latter is what is difficult to do because of how the world has defined 'church'.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Jethro Bodine,

Yes. I like your answer. There is a church and there is a Church - or The Body of Christ.
if you think of it, you could belong to a church but not to THE Church or V/V.
This is a very important concept to understand. Jesus sent the Apostles on the mission. Go and preach. Did He say go and set up a church. I can't remember 100% but I don't think so. He didn't come to set up a church but to show us a way of life.

I do think churches are necessary. Fellowship is necessary. It's important to get together and encourage each other while we're living on this earth. Also, man does need some kind of tradition or a bldg he could see and where he could meet with others. Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves. Hebrews 10:29.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

That's because you're looking at the 'church of the world'.
When I got born again I discovered the true church of God where there is perfect unity via the Holy Spirit. That hardly means doctrinal unity as some think unity must look like. What it means is meeting people who are on fire and devoted to Christ. We are perfectly united in Christ. It's an awesome thing to meet another member of the true church and celebrate the greatness of our common fellowship with God by the Holy Spirit. It's an even more awesome thing when you can delicately gather a group of us together in a 'church' service. The latter is what is difficult to do because of how the world has defined 'church'.

I have no issues with postures of the invisible church because that's probably closer to reality.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller,

Your two posts have gotten me rather down. First because of this Mormons thing. How could anyone be so willing to be directed by another human? I mean, You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. You could take that a lot of ways. These people don't sound too free to me. OTOH, maybe some need this type of direction.

And your other post above regarding the churches. Gosh. Leave me a little hope! God will always find a way. What do you think of this one world religion some would want? Plus, it's kind of good that some weeding be done.

Wondering

I chalk up the bulk of the difficulties in the "visible churches" to the fact that we "all" have flesh that is contrary to the Spirit. This contrariness is manifested in DIVISIONS.

It is the contrariness that we all have being expressed in divisions, and that contrariness also trying to falsely justify contrariness.

We might all learn somethings in that factual lesson. The contrariness of exactly NONE of us will be or can be justifed. It does however manifest itself in many ways. I'll cite Gal. 5:17 for quick reference, but there is a much more dire set of issues behind this matter that few are capable of entering into, because it forces us to submit to the conclusion that we do have this contrariness to the Spirit.

This contrariness can NOT go there. It is VERY deceptive, by nature of being against the Spirit.

 

[smaller]

And to Wondering re: the Mormon church. The contrariness of the flesh can be managed and it can be attempted to be organized, but it's still contrary. I doubt very much that Mormon understandings have a good grip on this fact. But their contrariness is organized. So what?

It's still contrary to the Spirit in any case of sights. We can be assured, even from a distance, that they have a host of other heresy issues as well. It doesn't mean they don't do a decent job organizing and promoting their contrariness, and in the process, their heresies.

 

[GodsGrace]

I chalk up the bulk of the difficulties in the "visible churches" to the fact that we "all" have flesh that is contrary to the Spirit. This contrariness is manifested in DIVISIONS.

It is the contrariness that we all have being expressed in divisions, and that contrariness also trying to falsely justify contrariness.

We might all learn somethings in that factual lesson. The contrariness of exactly NONE of us will be or can be justifed. It does however manifest itself in many ways. I'll cite Gal. 5:17 for quick reference, but there is a much more dire set of issues behind this matter that few are capable of entering into, because it forces us to submit to the conclusion that we do have this contrariness to the Spirit.

This contrariness can NOT go there. It is VERY deceptive, by nature of being against the Spirit.

Hi,

Isn't it a known fact that the flesh is contrary to the spirit? Is there something new I don't know about?
Aren't you speaking to the sin nature in man?

So are you saying each church just wants to hold on to its throne, so to speak?

You're sounding a bit mysterious to me and I don't think there's anything mysterious in what you're speaking of. Unless, there's something I don't know about, as I said above.

Wondering