The Teachings of Paul

[stovebolts]

So your saying that the term "Hang on" is synonymous with the word "Fulfilled" ?

We don't need a theologian to interpret this for us, nor do we need the Holy Spirit to do so. A simple dictionary should suffice.

 

[Elijah674]

I simply believe the words of Paul contradict the words of Jesus. That’s as clear as I can make it.

I don’t think we are going to change each other’s minds
in the near future.

There is enough that your postings disagree with, with the INSPIRATION through Paul, that if it were a member of my fold, he would be brought before the Church Membership to document his 'teachings!' (no offence meant!) But it seem's from my end, that you have NO BUSINESS teaching until you get this CORRECT. Compare Luke 22:31-32 with Matt. 26:69-75 & see in verse 75 what it takes to be a 'teacher of the brethern'?? And did Christ at least three times 'rub' this foolishness in?? See John 21:14-18.

And a good place for you to start would be to find the TRUE difference between the Godheads Eternal Ten Commandment Covenant & Moses added laws. One is Eternal & the other is seen in Gal. 3:19 as ADDED!

And there were NO church problems with the understanding of what God Wrote Himself in Stone & then recreated in the Born Again Heart + MIND! As Paul TAUGHT! Heb. 8:10, Heb. 10:16

All problems with Paul's teachings are ALSO FOUND WITH 'OTHER' SCRIPTURE' as well! 2 Peter 3:16

--Elijah

 

[cyberjosh]

Why do you think that (that some Christians did not consider Paul infallible or inspired)? What groups of Christians, historically speaking, have ever believed that? Please tell me and I will be sure to research this more. I've never heard of such a thing.

In all my 57 years I’ve never been taught that the teachings of Paul are infallible. I’ve in recent years become aware there are some who believe it, but I don’t know why.

That's not much of an answer though. I asked where you have heard anything to the contrary. You only stated an absence of affirmation. If you have not heard anyone say that Paul was infallible but at the same time you also have not heard anyone say that Paul was not infallible (mostly because it is generally assumed he was - especially since Peter called Paul's writings Scripture) then that means you simply are just making up your mind in one direction with no other reason than your own opinion. If however there were historical groups of Christians that believed that Paul was not infallible or inspired in his writings then I would like to know about them and what their arguments were. I'd be interested to know. Can you, or can you not, provide me with any information about that belief?

Also, in your 57 years has anyone taken the time to defend or say that John's or Peter's writings are infallible, or were they silent on that as well (because it was presumably taken for granted)? If so, then the absence of Paul among them would be very conspicuous.

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

That's not much of an answer though. I asked where you have heard anything to the contrary. You only stated an absence of affirmation. If you have not heard anyone say that Paul was infallible but at the same time you also have not heard anyone say that Paul was not infallible (mostly because it is generally assumed he was - especially since Peter called Paul's writings scripture) then that means you simply are just making up your mind in one direction with no other reason other than your opinion. If however there were historical groups of Christians that believed that Paul was not infallible or inspired in his writings then I would like to know about them and what their arguments were. I'd be interested to know. Can you, or can you not, provide me with any information about that belief?

Also, in your 57 years has anyone taken the time to say or defend that John's or Peter's writings are infallible, or were they silent on that as well (because it was presumably taken for granted)? If so, then the absence of Paul among them would be very conspicuous.

~Josh

Modern day Marcionites...

 

[Elijah674]

Please do not get the two of the Elijah posting ones mixed up though, OK?

Elijah674 believes that all 66 Books are the Inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
(and when not the case, Paul mention's this)

--Elijah

 

[Oats]

Please do not get the two of the Elijah posting ones mixed up though, OK?

Elijah674 believes that all 66 Books are the Inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
(and when not the case, Paul mention's this)

--Elijah

i doubt anyone will do that...

 

[Sparkey]

"What Peter says about Paul tells us more about Peter than it does Paul."

Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
[2 Peter 3:13-18 NKJV]

Peter was a fisherman. An uneducated, 'unlettered' Galilean fisherman (Acts 4:13). In contrast, Paul was a Pharisee, the a son of a Pharisee with one of the highest education levels available. He was from the city Tarsus, one of the cultural and educational centers of the area. New Testament scholar John B. Polhill writes: "To his Tarsian heritage [Saul, later Paul] owed his fluency in the Greek language and probably much of his cultural orientation." (Polhill, John B., Paul & His Letters. Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1999). Studying under the well-respected Rabbi Gamaliel (Acts 2:3), Saul mastered the Torah and the entire Jewish law. Roughly 1/3rd of the New Testament was written by Paul. He was multi-cultural and multi-lingual demonstrating is mastery of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic in his many writings. Not including the book of Hebrews, although some believe Paul also wrote that epistle, he authored 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament, more than any other.

When Peter speaks of Paul (see above) he states that Paul writes about things that are difficult to understand. The Quote, "What Peter says about Paul tells us more about Peter than it does Paul," attempts to point out that Peter was revealing more about himself than his subject, Paul. Although this may be true in general what we see upon investigation is Peter spoke about salvation and the longsuffering of the Lord. His side comment, that many of the things Paul wrote are difficult to understand, may indeed point to the disparate levels of education shared between the two men, but Peter goes on to say that those who are "unlearned and unstable" twist Paul's meaning. Clearly, Peter was not including himself in that descriptive grouping.

~Sparrow

 

[Elijah674]

"What Peter says about Paul tells us more about Peter than it does Paul."

Peter was a fisherman. An uneducated, 'unlettered' Galilean fisherman (Acts 4:13). In contrast, Paul was a Pharisee, the a son of a Pharisee with one of the highest education levels available. He was from the city Tarsus, one of the cultural and educational centers of the area. New Testament scholar John B. Polhill writes: "To his Tarsian heritage [Saul, later Paul] owed his fluency in the Greek language and probably much of his cultural orientation." (Polhill, John B., Paul & His Letters. Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1999). Studying under the well-respected Rabbi Gamaliel (Acts 2:3), Saul mastered the Torah and the entire Jewish law. Roughly 1/3rd of the New Testament was written by Paul. He was multi-cultural and multi-lingual demonstrating is mastery of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic in his many writings. Not including the book of Hebrews, although some believe Paul also wrote that epistle, he authored 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament, more than any other.

When Peter speaks of Paul (see above) he states that Paul writes about things that are difficult to understand. The Quote, "What Peter says about Paul tells us more about Peter than it does Paul," attempts to point out that Peter was revealing more about himself than his subject, Paul. Although this may be true in general what we see upon investigation is Peter spoke about salvation and the longsuffering of the Lord. His side comment, that many of the things Paul wrote are difficult to understand, may indeed point to the disparate levels of education shared between the two men, but Peter goes on to say that those who are "unlearned and unstable" twist Paul's meaning. Clearly, Peter was not including himself in that descriptive grouping.

~Sparrow

2 Peter 3:16 also has Inspiration saying.. '.. which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, [as they do also the other scripture], ..'

I find very little of penned wordings from Paul that might fall into the class of big words, and not being understandable??

About the only real thing that I find as his real problem was that of Moses Law seen in Gal. Eph. & Col. that the Jewish converts had problems with. (see Acts 15) And the today ones still do not fare well with understanding Paul's pen about Moses stuff & the Eternal Law of the Godhead either!

And Heb. has much Sanctuary Truth in it that hardly any of the today ones understand or seem to care to. And Rev. is written (penned) by John, and who has any understanding of all of the Inspiration from the Sanctuary in those chapters?

And as far as placing Blame, if that is what this is all about? It seems to me that the problem falls on the individual hearing the message! Note Isa. 5 that was for way way back before Saul/Paul or Peter came on the scene.

NO. If Rom. 2:14-15 by Paul's pen can find ones SAVED through the Lords created NATURE, then some of these squables that satan brings about are just a time wasting smokescreen!

When one reads of Noah preaching for 120 years along beside the Strivings of the Holy Spirit and with only 8 souls going into the Ark saved, 'i' could hardly venture blame to God or His Servant.

--Elijah

 

[Scotth1960]

Some Christians believe the teachings of Paul are infallible. Did anyone believe this during his lifetime? If not, when did they start believing it? Why did some Christians start believing Paul’s teachings were infallible?

Dear elijah, Just as St. Paul criticized St. Peter, St. Peter could criticize St. Paul. No apostle of Christ was viewed as without sin or without error. All could fall. All were restored and saved by Christ (eventually). St Peter writes (2 Peter 3) that there are SOME THINGS IN PAUL'S EPISTLES "HARD TO UNDERSTAND", which "THE UNLEARNED AND THE UNSTABLE" do twist, for their own destruction. Beware then of what you THINK "Saint Paul" says and means. That includes salvation "by faith alone" (Ephesians 2:8-9), without taking into account Ephesians 2:10. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Ephesians 2:10 doesn't say we are saved by doing any works. We are created to do the works planned for us from the very foundation of the world. We are saved by faith.

Our righteous works are the byproduct of that salvation--that transformation of our very beings due to Christ taking up residence within our spirits.


Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[Scotth1960]

I was not raised to believe that the teachings of Paul and Peter were infallible. Therefore, I think it is a legitimate question to ask: Why do you think the teachings of Paul and Peter are infallible?

Elijah, Alabaster, and all friends. All Scripture is inspired by God the Holy Spirit. But not all of it carries EQUAL WEIGHT. CHRIST'S WORDS IN THE 4 GOSPELS are the KEY to understanding THE ACTS and the EPISTLES AND REVELATION. Christ's words shall not pass away. Paul's and the Apostles' words have value only IN THE LIGHT OF CHRIST'S WORDS. Christ shows Himself to be THE TRUTH. St. Paul's words are all true. But St. Paul is not THE TRUTH. In Erie Scott Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Elijah, Alabaster, and all friends. All Scripture is inspired by God the Holy Spirit. But not all of it carries EQUAL WEIGHT. CHRIST'S WORDS IN THE 4 GOSPELS are the KEY to understanding THE ACTS and the EPISTLES AND REVELATION. Christ's words shall not pass away. Paul's and the Apostles' words have value only IN THE LIGHT OF CHRIST'S WORDS. Christ shows Himself to be THE TRUTH. St. Paul's words are all true. But St. Paul is not THE TRUTH. In Erie Scott Harrington

That is false. Paul spoke for Jesus. It is His word, after all, and everything Paul and any apostle has written agrees with Jesus Christ--it comes from the heart of God!!! All scripture is anointed by God and is truth and full of supernatural power.

 

[Sparkey]

2 Peter 3:16 also has Inspiration saying.. '.. which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, [as they do also the other scripture], ..'

I find very little of penned wordings from Paul that might fall into the class of big words, and not being understandable??

...

--Elijah

Please note that I've not done more than quote a fisherman who was selected by our Lord to preach the truth. Both Peter and Paul (as well as all Christians) share "the mind of Christ". When Peter mentions that Paul spoke of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, I merely agreed. In no way am I trying to contradict Jesus who promised the Holy Spirit to His followers. He flatly stated, "My sheep know my voice." Our Comforter and Teacher is sent to teach us all things. The hope comes from our willingness to remain submitted and yielded to the command to love God and each other as we strive together toward understanding. Even this is of God, not of ourselves.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[Alabaster]

Please note that I've not done more than quote a fisherman who was selected by our Lord to preach the truth. Both Peter and Paul (as well as all Christians) share "the mind of Christ". When Peter mentions that Paul spoke of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, I merely agreed. In no way am I trying to contradict Jesus who promised the Holy Spirit to His followers. He flatly stated, "My sheep know my voice." Our Comforter and Teacher is sent to teach us all things. The hope comes from our willingness to remain submitted and yielded to the command to love God and each other as we strive together toward understanding. Even this is of God, not of ourselves.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

Great post! How true.

 

[glorydaz]

Of course he does!

He also goes on to teach us more meaty issues regarding living our faith and walking in it with success and results of fruit. Jesus anointed Him to do that.

The main thing you are missing is the infilling of the Holy Spirit that comes after salvation, which all of Christ's followers experiened after the ascension. If you reject everything that happened after Jesus, then you miss what Holy Spirit's ministry does in us.

You sum it up quite well. Jesus did not teach us how to grow into the "body" of Christ...He left that to the Apostles. We can remain babes, or we can mature. Jesus could not be "in us" while in the flesh, it was only after He sent the Spirit that we are able to truly be conformed into His image. The Apostles bear witness of the RISEN LORD. If we were to ignore everything but the four Gospels, we would have no way of really knowing our Saviour and His Power.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

 

[NarrowGate]

Hey all! New to the forums here and this is my first post! Name is Ray. I have a pretty radical theology and will probably be shunned! I love to discuss God's Word in the right manner to get to the truth. I will not argue and bicker because it benifits absolutely nothing.

I have not read this entire thread. I have read multiple post to get the general idea of what everyone is percieving. Here is how it has been revealed to me.

All of Pauls writting are perfect as the entire Word of God! Pauls writting are tough to understand and truth of them are distorted by people who dont have the Spirit of God to understand them. The entire Word of God is useful. New and Old. You can find any new testement scripture in the old by digging in! The below scripture is one of my favorites! It fit right into the first thread I clicked on!

Psa 18:30 NIV - As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Psa 18:31 NIV - For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psa 18:32 NIV - It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect.


2Ti 3:15 NIV - and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 NIV - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 NIV - so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

We see that not only is the scripture good but it makes us wise for salvation. What does that mean? Here it is again!

Rom 1:16 NIV - I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

It is the power of God for your salvation! But of course you have to have the Spirit of God to understand the truth of the Gospel to obtain the power to work out your salvation! That leads to another discussion! LOL!

 

[Alabaster]

You sum it up quite well. Jesus did not teach us how to grow into the "body" of Christ...He left that to the Apostles. We can remain babes, or we can mature. Jesus could not be "in us" while in the flesh, it was only after He sent the Spirit that we are able to truly be conformed into His image. The Apostles bear witness of the RISEN LORD. If we were to ignore everything but the four Gospels, we would have no way of really knowing our Saviour and His Power.