The Teachings of Paul

[Alabaster]

It is all about loving the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

No one disagrees with that, and neither does Paul! He wrote with authority 1 Corinthians 13, the famous chapter about love.

 

[elijah23]

How did you come to the conclusion that the teachings in the four Gospels are the only truth?

There is only one truth. Anything that contradicts what Jesus said is not true.

 

[stovebolts]

First off, Paul is talking about fulfillment of the law, not that which all the commandments hang upon, as these are two separate topics and theologies.

I disagree.

kjv Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;

I'm not sure how you can disagree with me saying that Paul is talking about the fulfillment of the law when he clearly states this point of view himself.

Care to elaborate?

Thanks.

 

[Alabaster]

There is only one truth. Anything that contradicts what Jesus said is not true.

No one has contradicted Jesus, but you contradict the Scripture's authority and veracity. Scriptureis by inspiration of God Himself. You are making a huge spiritual blunder in contending for your error. Dear Paul was saved by Jesus, trained by Jesus, commissioned by Jesus and led by Jesus the whole way throughout His ministry. He spoke for Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

There is only one truth. Anything that contradicts what Jesus said is not true.

I agree, more so AMEN!

Jesus did say that he was the way, the truth and the life. This is why Jesus was able to fulfill the law, and why it is through Him that we are reconciled to God. I believe Paul affirms this.

 

[Alabaster]

2 Peter 2:15-18 NLT
15 And remember, the Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

Peter’s Final Words

17 I am warning you ahead of time, dear friends. Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing. 18 Rather, you must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
All glory to him, both now and forever! Amen.

 

[elijah23]

kjv Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;

I'm not sure how you can disagree with me saying that Paul is talking about the fulfillment of the law when he clearly states this point of view himself.

Care to elaborate?

Thanks.

The great commandment is to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, but Paul says this:

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Gal 5:14 RSV

 

[elijah23]

I agree, more so AMEN!

Jesus did say that he was the way, the truth and the life. This is why Jesus was able to fulfill the law, and why it is through Him that we are reconciled to God. I believe Paul affirms this.

Jesus is the way. If you obey his teachings, found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you will do just fine. Paul affirms this.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus is the way. If you obey his teachings, found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you will do just fine. Paul affirms this.

Of course he does!

He also goes on to teach us more meaty issues regarding living our faith and walking in it with success and results of fruit. Jesus anointed Him to do that.

The main thing you are missing is the infilling of the Holy Spirit that comes after salvation, which all of Christ's followers experiened after the ascension. If you reject everything that happened after Jesus, then you miss what Holy Spirit's ministry does in us.

 

[stovebolts]

The great commandment is to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, but Paul says this:

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Gal 5:14 RSV

Yes, starting in Deut 6:4 and following plus a portion of Numbers. It was part of a prayer that was prayed twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. It was known as the Shema.

To fulfill a commandment was not only to understand the commandment mentally, but to live the commandment out as well (strength) as God had intended. You see, in the passage you site above, there are three parts in which we "love the Lord."
BTW, it would read, deut 6:5
all your heart, soul and strength.

1. heart. What does it look like to love God with your heart? To answer this, one would need to know the Hebrew understanding of what the function of the heart was. In this case, it functioned as the mind as in intellectual thought, not purely emotion for emotion was seated in the bowels, not the heart.
2. Soul, what does it look like to love God with all your soul? To answer this, one would have to understand how a Hebrew viewed the soul in it's different layers and fuctions.
3. Strength, what does it look like to love God with all your strength? To answer this, one would have to understand how a Hebrew understood his strength. This is by far the easiest as it pertained to the work of ones hand, which is attributed and tied to ones heart and soul.

When one is living their life in accordance with this commandment, it would be said that they have fulfilled the commandment.

This is what Paul is speaking about when he speaks on the fulfillment of the law as loving ones neighbor as yourself and if you understand this commandment, then you also understand that sometimes loving your neighbor means doing more for your neigbor than you may do for yourself.

You see, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us and by doing so, shed his blood to atone for our sins. Truly, Christ fits the bill for fulfilling the commandment of loving ones neighbor. Do you agree?

Now then, when it comes to where Jesus quotes the law, and pulls out the two greatest commandments for which all of the 613 commandments hinge upon, it is based on not only the shema, but is also seen directly within the 10 commandments and if you notice, the first 5 commandments are related to how we interact with God, and the last five are related to how we interact with each other. However, if you notice, the 5th commandment speaks on honoring ones parents to which you may ask, "How is that related to honoring God". And it is certainly something I would have you ponder

So you see, Jesus not only shows the greatest commandment, but he also rightly points out the second greatest commandment. It is our job once we know these commandments to live them out and thus, fulfill the commandments. There is a difference ya know, and Paul, in Galatians is speaking of the one who fulfilled the commandment to love their neighbor as themself as only Jesus could do.

 

[elijah23]

Yes, starting in Deut 6:4 and following plus a portion of Numbers. It was part of a prayer that was prayed twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. It was known as the Shema.

To fulfill a commandment was not only to understand the commandment mentally, but to live the commandment out as well (strength) as God had intended. You see, in the passage you site above, there are three parts in which we "love the Lord."
BTW, it would read, deut 6:5
all your heart, soul and strength.

1. heart. What does it look like to love God with your heart? To answer this, one would need to know the Hebrew understanding of what the function of the heart was. In this case, it functioned as the mind as in intellectual thought, not purely emotion for emotion was seated in the bowels, not the heart.
2. Soul, what does it look like to love God with all your soul? To answer this, one would have to understand how a Hebrew viewed the soul in it's different layers and fuctions.
3. Strength, what does it look like to love God with all your strength? To answer this, one would have to understand how a Hebrew understood his strength. This is by far the easiest as it pertained to the work of ones hand, which is attributed and tied to ones heart and soul.

When one is living their life in accordance with this commandment, it would be said that they have fulfilled the commandment.

This is what Paul is speaking about when he speaks on the fulfillment of the law as loving ones neighbor as yourself and if you understand this commandment, then you also understand that sometimes loving your neighbor means doing more for your neigbor than you may do for yourself.

You see, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us and by doing so, shed his blood to atone for our sins. Truly, Christ fits the bill for fulfilling the commandment of loving ones neighbor. Do you agree?

Now then, when it comes to where Jesus quotes the law, and pulls out the two greatest commandments for which all of the 613 commandments hinge upon, it is based on not only the shema, but is also seen directly within the 10 commandments and if you notice, the first 5 commandments are related to how we interact with God, and the last five are related to how we interact with each other. However, if you notice, the 5th commandment speaks on honoring ones parents to which you may ask, "How is that related to honoring God". And it is certainly something I would have you ponder

So you see, Jesus not only shows the greatest commandment, but he also rightly points out the second greatest commandment. It is our job once we know these commandments to live them out and thus, fulfill the commandments. There is a difference ya know, and Paul, in Galatians is speaking of the one who fulfilled the commandment to love their neighbor as themself as only Jesus could do.

I think we are discussing semantics.

 

[stovebolts]

From the Macmillian dictionary.

Fulfillment:
the act of doing something that is promised or expected

Paul is simply affirming what Jesus did for us because of his great love for us.

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word (Galatians 5:14)

Think about the structure of his sentance. The KJV states For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That looks like 7 words, not one word. I would suggest the one word Paul is thinking is Christ, thus the use of the ;

hang on:
to depend on something

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Mt. 22:40)

It is one thing to hang on, and another to fulfill. Words have different meanings for a reason.

 

[elijah23]

From the Macmillian dictionary.

Fulfillment:
the act of doing something that is promised or expected

Paul is simply affirming what Jesus did for us because of his great love for us.

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word (Galatians 5:14)

Think about the structure of his sentance. The KJV states For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That looks like 7 words, not one word. I would suggest the one word Paul is thinking is Christ, thus the use of the ;

hang on:
to depend on something

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Mt. 22:40)

It is one thing to hang on, and another to fulfill. Words have different meanings for a reason.

I am trying to be agreeable, but I cannot agree to something that I don’t think is true.

 

[stovebolts]

I am trying to be agreeable, but I cannot agree to something that I don’t think is true.

It's a simple misunderstanding the way I see it. Do you believe that it was Jesus who fulfilled the law, and thus through his atoning sacrifice on the cross reconciled both jew and gentile back with God?

Correct me please if I am misrepresenting your view, but it appears that your line of thought may be along these lines.

Jesus said that all the laws and prophets hung on the two greatest commandments.

Paul said that the law was fulfilled by one word, and then goes on to give the second greatest commandment of loving ones neighbor as an example of that one word.

It is thus your understanding that Paul is incorrect because you do not see the difference between all the laws being hung on (dependent upon) two commandments and the law as a whole being fulfilled by one of them.

It is one thing to state the 613 laws, another to state that all those laws hang on 2 major laws, and a completly different thing to live those laws out, thus fulfilling the commandments.

Think of it like this. The objective is to get milk. The commandments are the road map on how to get the milk. Going to the store, purchasing the milk and actually bringing it home would be the fulfillment of the command, since the objective was to get milk to begin with. In the sense of Torah, the objective was to show God's children how to live, and thus be reconciled to God. This all pointed to Christ as the Christ is the fulfillment of Torah.

 

[elijah23]

It's a simple misunderstanding the way I see it. Do you believe that it was Jesus who fulfilled the law, and thus through his atoning sacrifice on the cross reconciled both jew and gentile back with God?

Correct me please if I am misrepresenting your view, but it appears that your line of thought may be along these lines.

Jesus said that all the laws and prophets hung on the two greatest commandments.

Paul said that the law was fulfilled by one word, and then goes on to give the second greatest commandment of loving ones neighbor as an example of that one word.

It is thus your understanding that Paul is incorrect because you do not see the difference between all the laws being hung on (dependent upon) two commandments and the law as a whole being fulfilled by one of them.

It is one thing to state the 613 laws, another to state that all those laws hang on 2 major laws, and a completly different thing to live those laws out, thus fulfilling the commandments.

Think of it like this. The objective is to get milk. The commandments are the road map on how to get the milk. Going to the store, purchasing the milk and actually bringing it home would be the fulfillment of the command, since the objective was to get milk to begin with. In the sense of Torah, the objective was to show God's children how to live, and thus be reconciled to God. This all pointed to Christ as the Christ is the fulfillment of Torah.

I still think it is semantics.

Perhaps it would be useful to close the thread.

 

[doubting thomas]

elijah23,

since you only have two problems with paul (the law concerning the imperative to neighborly love in galatians and the instruction to woman remaining silent in church found in one of the timothy letters), i would like to know how you reconcile the following in the teachings of paul, which apparently, since you did not raise them, pose no problem for you:

1. james 2:21-24 compared with paul in romans 4:1-3 and 10:4

Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,â€[a] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.†Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

clearly james and paul are having a debate

2. galatians 2:11

When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

so there seems to be disagreement amongst the first christians with paul over the laws of moses (cirsumcision and dietary laws)

3. would jesus, who ministered to all sinners, agree with paul's first letter to the corinthians (5:911)?

i personally find this much more troubling than the letter to timothy concerning the silence of women, since i know many christians who are sexually immoral and greedy, and i would be uncomfortable shunning them

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

4. would jesus (matthew 25:34-45) agree with paul's letter to the thessalonians (3:10)?

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, ... Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, ... “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat,...“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry ...and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.â€

5. would jesus (matthew 7:21-27) agree with paul's letter to the romans (3:28)?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.â€

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

6. would jesus, who preaches that we must be like little children, agree with, as you already cited, 1Cor 13:11?

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

7. would jesus (mathew 5:18-19) agree with romans 10:4 or 3:27-28?

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

some of these question pose no problem for me, but i see them all as more problematic than the two passages you take fault with. can you please explain why these issues i've laid out do not pose a problem for you?

you've also said it possible that paul "misspoke", but i ask you if this sounds like a man who "misspoke":

1 galatians: I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ ... I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

 

[stovebolts]

I still think it is semantics.

I don't understand. Can you give me a definition of semantics so we are on the same page and then show me how this is a matter of semantics and not that of simple definition?

Thanks!

 

[elijah23]

I don't understand. Can you give me a definition of semantics so we are on the same page and then show me how this is a matter of semantics and not that of simple definition?

Thanks!

I simply believe the words of Paul contradict the words of Jesus. That’s as clear as I can make it.

I don’t think we are going to change each other’s minds in the near future.

 

[stovebolts]

Oh I'm not trying to change your mind Elijah, I'm simply trying to understand your perspective except it seems we're getting stuck on a definition of a word.

Now then, please show me how it can be semantics, and not a simple definition. Please?

Again, what I see is not a contradiction, but a simple misunderstanding in definition.

That's ok, we all make those types of mistakes. It happens, and none of us are perfect.

Now then, if I misunderstood the definition of fulfillment with hung on, I would agree that Paul was contradicting Jesus. So it seems to me that if we clear up this tiny misunderstanding, then we should be all clear. Right?

 

[elijah23]

Oh I'm not trying to change your mind Elijah, I'm simply trying to understand your perspective except it seems we're getting stuck on a definition of a word.

Now then, please show me how it can be semantics, and not a simple definition. Please?

Again, what I see is not a contradiction, but a simple misunderstanding in definition.

That's ok, we all make those types of mistakes. It happens, and none of us are perfect.

Now then, if I misunderstood the definition of fulfillment with hung on, I would agree that Paul was contradicting Jesus. So it seems to me that if we clear up this tiny misunderstanding, then we should be all clear. Right?

I believe the Bible is very clear, StoveBolts. You will have to interpret it your way and I mine. Let the Lord lead you and I will try to do the same.