The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[Chopper]

I apologize if this subject has already been discussed....A very good friend who is a Christian poet and song writer believes in "soul sleep". Baptist theology is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Away from the body, at home with the Lord. (ESV) I don't think I've ever heard any soul sleep theology. A lot of Christians have wondered about this and 2 Cor. 5:6-8 has been my position. What about "soul sleep"?

 

[JLB]

I apologize if this subject has already been discussed....A very good friend who is a Christian poet and song writer believes in "soul sleep". Baptist theology is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Away from the body, at home with the Lord. (ESV) I don't think I've ever heard any soul sleep theology. A lot of Christians have wondered about this and 2 Cor. 5:6-8 has been my position. What about "soul sleep"?

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:19-31

 

[Chopper]

Very good JLB, I understand that when our Lord told a story and named an individual, it was a true happening. Thanks for reinforcing being alive after death.

 

[TOG]

If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story, then how do you explain the following problems?

• Lazarus didn't go to God or to Jesus, but to the Abraham
• The rich man requested permission to go back from Abraham, not from God
• The rich man was able to see Lazarus and speak to Abraham, as if they were the only ones there. Where were all the millions of others who had died before then?
• If we are all judged and sent to Heaven or Hell as soon as we die, why the need for a final Judgment in the future?

As for "soul sleep", there are a number of verses that support the idea.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Is. 38:18 KJV)

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Ps. 6:5 KJV)

Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed (I Cor. 15:51 KJV)

​

There are a many other verses that say that we sleep or that the dead cannot praise or thank God. The only two I can remember that people say "prove" that we don't sleep are the story of Lazarus and the rich man and the fact that Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise". Well, that's how most versions translate it. Some say it should be "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise". (Look closely and see if you can tell the difference.)

The TOG

​

 

[JLB]

If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story, then how do you explain the following problems?

• Lazarus didn't go to God or to Jesus, but to the Abraham
• The rich man requested permission to go back from Abraham, not from God
• The rich man was able to see Lazarus and speak to Abraham, as if they were the only ones there. Where were all the millions of others who had died before then?
• If we are all judged and sent to Heaven or Hell as soon as we die, why the need for a final Judgment in the future?

As for "soul sleep", there are a number of verses that support the idea.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Is. 38:18 KJV)

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Ps. 6:5 KJV)

Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed (I Cor. 15:51 KJV)

​

There are a many other verses that say that we sleep or that the dead cannot praise or thank God. The only two I can remember that people say "prove" that we don't sleep are the story of Lazarus and the rich man and the fact that Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise". Well, that's how most versions translate it. Some say it should be "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise". (Look closely and see if you can tell the difference.)

The TOG

​

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16

Samuel was in Abraham's Bosom.

Saul and his sons were there also.

Jesus went down into the heart of the earth to bring out the captives that were preserved there until He was revealed to them in Paradise.


JLB

 

[Pizzaguy]

And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this `cometh' judgment;
- American Standard Version (1901)

"You will be with me in Paradise" - seems an odd way to describe laying in the ground and not conscious. He did NOT say, SOMEDAY, EVENTUALLY or AFTER A LONG, LONG, LONG TIME...

 

[TOG]

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16

A vision seen by a witch. Not what I base my theology on.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

"You will be with me in Paradise" - seems an odd way to describe laying in the ground and not conscious. He did NOT say, SOMEDAY, EVENTUALLY or AFTER A LONG, LONG, LONG TIME...

And ignoring what others have said seems an odd way to support your point of view.

The TOG
​

 

[JLB]

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16

A vision seen by a witch. Not what I base my theology on.

The TOG
​

What the scriptures teach is what I base my understanding on.

The scriptures teach us what Samuel said to Saul.

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Picking and choosing what scriptures that we like and believe is like picking which laws we like and choose to obey, then we turn around and declare ourselves "Torah Observant".


Perfect!


JLB

 

[TOG]

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16

A vision seen by a witch. Not what I base my theology on.

The TOG
​

What the scriptures teach is what I base my understanding on.

The scriptures teach us what Samuel said to Saul.

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Picking and choosing what scriptures that we like and believe is like picking which laws we like and choose to obey, then we turn around and declare ourselves "Torah Observant".


Perfect!


JLB

Read the whole story. I've put in bold some parts you didn't quote or didn't seem to have noticed.

Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.” So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.” The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?” But Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. (I SAM. 28:7-14 ESV)

​

So, from this we see that...

• The lady was a medium
• Saul didn't see Samuel
• The medium said she saw a god
• Saul worshipped (paid hommage to) the god she saw
• The story doesn't say anything of Samuels (if indeed it was Samuel) state before the witch conjured him up

A medium conjured up the spirit of a dead person. That's what the story tells us, if we read the whole thing, and don't just pick words or verses here and there that suit us. If I came to you today and said "I'm a medium and I can conjure up the spirit of any deceased person you want", would you take that as proof that the dead don't sleep? Does it make any difference whether the medium is alive today or whether she died thousands of years ago? Does it matter whether she conjurs up Samuel or your great-grandfather? Witchcraft, mediumship and necromancy are sins, no matter who does it or whom they claim to contact. The words of a medium, even when recorded in the Bible, are not something we should base our faith on.

The TOG

​

 

[JLB]

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16

A vision seen by a witch. Not what I base my theology on.

The TOG
​

What the scriptures teach is what I base my understanding on.

The scriptures teach us what Samuel said to Saul.

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Picking and choosing what scriptures that we like and believe is like picking which laws we like and choose to obey, then we turn around and declare ourselves "Torah Observant".


Perfect!


JLB

Read the whole story. I've put in bold some parts you didn't quote or didn't seem to have noticed.

Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.†And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.â€So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.†The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?†But Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.†Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?†He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.†When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.†The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?†And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.†He said to her, “What is his appearance?†And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.†And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. (I SAM. 28:7-14 ESV)

​

So, from this we see that...

• The lady was a medium
• Saul didn't see Samuel
• The medium said she saw a god
• Saul worshipped (paid hommage to) the god she saw
• The story doesn't say anything of Samuels (if indeed it was Samuel) state before the witch conjured him up

A medium conjured up the spirit of a dead person. That's what the story tells us, if we read the whole thing, and don't just pick words or verses here and there that suit us. If I came to you today and said "I'm a medium and I can conjure up the spirit of any deceased person you want", would you take that as proof that the dead don't sleep? Does it make any difference whether the medium is alive today or whether she died thousands of years ago? Does it matter whether she conjurs up Samuel or your great-grandfather? Witchcraft, mediumship and necromancy are sins, no matter who does it or whom they claim to contact. The words of a medium, even when recorded in the Bible, are not something we should base our faith on.

The TOG

​

And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle."

She saw an old man with a mantle.

How did this woman just happen to describe Samuel the prophet?


And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

A common gesture of respect in those days.


15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Where was Samuel? Where did he come from?

In light of what Jesus taught us in Luke 16?



I am beginning to see why you pick and choose which laws of Moses Law you decide to obey.

 

[TOG]

How did this woman just happen to describe Samuel the prophet?

How do mediums today just happen to describe deceased relatives of people who come to them for help?

Where was Samuel? Where did he come from?

In light of what Jesus taught us in Luke 16?

You mean in light of what Jesus said in a parable?

I am beginning to see why you pick and choose which laws of Moses Law you decide to obey.

Just so we're clear on this, I'm the one that wants to look at the whole story. I'm also the one who believes we should obey every commandment which is possible to obey. You're the one that's picking and choosing in both cases.

The TOG
​

 

[Drew]

One line of argument to the effect that the parable does not deal with the afterlife appeals to a structural pattern in the gospels whereby Jesus does things and then comments on those actions through parables. To the extent that this pattern is to some degree normative, and given Lazarus’ poverty and low social status, it is plausible that this particular parable entails Jesus’ cryptic explanation of His habit of engaging with “outcasts and sinnersâ€. On this view, Jesus eats with sinners, touches those who are ritually unclean (e.g. lepers), etc., and then uses the Luke 16 parable to explain, using a well-known story about life after death as a metaphorical vehicle to make the point that His actions constitute the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God through His own ministry (note that, only a few sentences later in chapter 17, Jesus explicitly addresses the nature of the Kingdom of God, supporting the notion the Lazarus parable is really about the Kingdom of God, not the afterlife).

Sorry - I don't "debate" anymore and I will not respond to any comments on this post.

 

[Drew]

As in all areas, we need to be careful about pre-suppositons we bring to the reading of Biblical texts. It is clear that we 21st century westerners have been strongly influenced by Plato's dualistic model of the world which (I believe) entails commitment to a fundamental distinction between the "physical" (or material) and the "spiritual" (or immaterial). I suggest that the Jews (including Jesus and Paul) did not think that way. In other words, I doubt whether Jesus or Paul believed that there is a such a "thing" as a soul that inhabits the body and which flies away on death and continues to be the bearer of consciousness.

To the extent that I am correct, this should influence the way we read the Luke 16. More specifically, it would add evidence to the case that this account is not to be taken literally.

Again, I do not "debate", so I will not be responding to comments on this post.

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=96759]TOG[/MENTION] :

Dear brother,

the view of Scipture that you are revealing here above is very familiar to me.
It is the view of Jehovah's Witnesses. I know, because I have been one myself.
Please do not (!) take offense in me mentioning that. For the sake of peace and understanding, I have decided to reply here.

I do not know if you are familiar with the Watchtower doctrines, or if you have learned those views somewhere else. For the other readers it might be difficult to understand the thinking process of your posts.

The question I asked people on my door-to-door fieldservice was, how could Jesus be in Paradise together with the thief "today" if He still had to wait until He would rise on the third day? The explanation then referred to the Watchtower's own translation (which you might have in mind when offering the other version). There it is emphasized that the Greek original didn't know punctuation. Thus, it was the decision of the later translators to either put the comma in front of or after the word "today". The only version I know of using the latter choice is Watchtower's New World Translation. " Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise."

The background of those different views is important. JWs don't believe that Jesus is God. In fact, they use an argument that says, if Jesus would have been God, he wouldn't have existed for three days when dead.
They don't accept the truth that God expresses Himself in three persons, One of Whom is The Son Jesus. Hence they are not able to transfer this truth to the sentence on the cross, namely that the thief could indeed be with Jesus in Paradise "today", because God never stops to exist.

I hope, dear brother, that makes sense to you. I have really tried to explain this to my former fellow believers, but they won't listen to me.
Please do not think that I would like to appear smart. I am definitely not!
I just found it so very important to understand this very issue, as it made me leave Jesus as my Lord years ago, only to find that it was a huge mistake.

May God bless you.
Maedchen

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I understand that when our Lord told a story and named an individual, it was a true happening.

Upon what truths or evidences do you base this understanding? You may want to reevaluate why you believe this way to be sure this line of thinking falls in line with scripture.

As far as the Medium at Endor, I'll use the text quoted by another poster and ask was Samuel a spirit or was the Samuel that was seen coming out of the ground the resurrected old man that had died?

“Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. (I SAM. 28:7-14 ESV)

 

[JLB]

I understand that when our Lord told a story and named an individual, it was a true happening.

Upon what truths or evidences do you base this understanding? You may want to reevaluate why you believe this way to be sure this line of thinking falls in line with scripture.

As far as the Medium at Endor, I'll use the text quoted by another poster and ask was Samuel a spirit or was the Samuel that was seen coming out of the ground the resurrected old man that had died?

“Whom shall I bring up for you?†He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.†When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.†The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?†And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.†He said to her, “What is his appearance?†And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.†And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. (I SAM. 28:7-14 ESV)

Samuel will be resurrected at the end of the age, when Jesus returns.

God is the God of the living.

Samuel came up from Abrahams Bosom, because the Spirit of The Lord allowed this liberty.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

how could Jesus be in Paradise together with the thief "today" if He still had to wait until He would rise on the third day?

Comma placement by the translators leads to conclusions that the writer may not have had in mind as you indicated. Whatever message the comma placement promotes should harmonize with what the gospels actually says transpired. Jesus said after his resurrection he had not yet ascended to the Father, so concluding that Jesus immediately dies and went to paradise is problematic. If you pay close attention to Jesus interaction with the thief you will notice that Jesus use of the word 'today' does not specify the 'when' of being in paradise.
note: JW's aren't the only ones that do not believe Jesus and the theif went to paradise that day. It is funny to me how people use the fallacy of the guilt by association argument. That argument goes like this: "What you are saying is the samr thing that 'X' group or person that is undesirable says, therefore, what you are saying must be wrong." This line of thinking implies that a person or group is wholly wrong on EVERYTHING they believe and is an overexageration of reality. JW's do get many things wrong, but based on the scriptures it would appear that they along with the SDA's got it right when discussing the 'soul' of man.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Samuel came up from Abrahams Bosom

The text in 1st Sam 28 says nothing about Abraham's Bosom. It says Samuel came up from the ground/out of the earth.

God is the God of the living.

You quote this as if it somehow backs the idea that souls live on after death and before the resurrection. It does not support that conclusion my friend. What you are quoting can be found in Luke 20:38. It you look at the context Jesus explains exactly what this quote means.

"The men of this age," replied Jesus, "marry, and the women are given in marriage. 35But as for those who shall have been deemed worthy to find a place in that other age and in the Resurrection from among the dead, the men do not marry and the women are not given in marriage. 36For indeed they cannot die again; they are like angels, and are sons of God through being sons of the Resurrection. 37But that the dead rise to life even Moses clearly implies in the passage about the Bush, where he calls the Lord 'The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38He is not a God of dead, but of living men, for to Him are all living."

Jesus said God is a God of the living in light of the idea that the resurrection was real, not because souls live on after death!

 

[Maedchen]

how could Jesus be in Paradise together with the thief "today" if He still had to wait until He would rise on the third day?

Comma placement by the translators leads to conclusions that the writer may not have had in mind as you indicated. Whatever message the comma placement promotes should harmonize with what the gospels actually says transpired. Jesus said after his resurrection he had not yet ascended to the Father, so concluding that Jesus immediately dies and went to paradise is problematic. If you pay close attention to Jesus interaction with the thief you will notice that Jesus use of the word 'today' does not specify the 'when' of being in paradise.
note: JW's aren't the only ones that do not believe Jesus and the theif went to paradise that day. It is funny to me how people use the fallacy of the guilt by association argument. That argument goes like this: "What you are saying is the samr thing that 'X' group or person that is undesirable says, therefore, what you are saying must be wrong." This line of thinking implies that a person or group is wholly wrong on EVERYTHING they believe and is an overexageration of reality. JW's do get many things wrong, but based on the scriptures it would appear that they along with the SDA's got it right when discussing the 'soul' of man.

Dear Truth over Tradition,

long ago you once explained to me that your screen name has been motivated by the following verse:

"And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: 'This people honors Me with their lips. But their heart is far away from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' " (Mat.15:6-9)

So I thought that you would understand the importance of not falling for man made doctrines.

Yet, I understand your point. And I have to admit that it is problematic.
And I apologize for having appeared judgmental.
Thank you for your correction.

Even if you write that you are not a Christian, I hope that Christ will reveal the truth to both of us some day.
Maedchen