The Trinity

[farouk]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.' (John chapter 1).

 

[Free]

Before He was the Son, He was not yet created. What was the very beginning of the Father's creation?

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."


Christ is "the beginning of God's creation." Why was Christ the first thing God created?

This is not to be understood as Christ being the start of God's creation, as that would contradict many passages but rather it is to be understood as Christ being the "beginner" and "author" of creation.

Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. (ESV)

We must also consider what was already given in Rev 1:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
....
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
....
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (ESV)

Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: 'The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. (ESV)

Right from the beginning of Revelation, we see that God is referred to as "the Alpha and the Omega" and Jesus as "the first and the last" (Alpha being the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega being the last). It is also significant then that we find Jesus repeating these same words in the last chapter:

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." (ESV)

Colossians 1:15 "He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created by Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell."

Christ was to be The Father's instrument for all the rest of His creation.

What is significant here is that the very context you are highlighting in Col 1 contradicts the idea that Jesus was created.

Notice verse 16: "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

If "firstborn" in verse 15 meant that Jesus was created, it would contradict verse 16 which clearly shows that Jesus could not have been created. As it is, this verse is in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3 and 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus cannot have been created unless we accept these verses as false and being in error.

So, having that context, we must understand that "firstborn" has more than one meaning. The meaning appropriate here is that of preeminence and Jesus's sovereignty over all of creation.

Nowhere in all of scripture, does Christ ever claim to be without a beginning.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)

To the contrary He confesses that He is the beginning of God's creation, that His Father is greater than He, and that His Father is His God:

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

2 Corinthians 11:31 "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not."

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."


God the Father created Christ to be the channel for His creation.

Incorrect. You are taking these verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture. You simply cannot divorce these texts from all that Scripture states. But such is the tactic of those who do not believe the Trinity. Indeed, for one to not be a trinitarian or to deny the deity of Christ and make him a mere creature, one must necessarily ignore many passages in Scripture or make them say something they do not say.

None of the above passages show that Jesus hasn't always existed or that he isn't God. None are in disagreement with the Trinity.

 

[smaller]

This is not to be understood as Christ being the start of God's creation, as that would contradict many passages but rather it is to be understood as Christ being the "beginner" and "author" of creation.

Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. (ESV)

We must also consider what was already given in Rev 1:

What is significant here is that the very context you are highlighting in Col 1 contradicts the idea that Jesus was created.

Agreed. It is always problematic to 'divide' Jesus from God. That is a basic foul.

The Spirit of Christ is the expresssion of God, His Word, into creation, as the expression and worker of creation, as Living Word into the world through the Law and Prophets and expressed into Flesh as Jesus Christ.

All of these matters are matters of 'Image Expression' of God Himself.

We can also see that the IMAGE and EXPRESSION of God will in fact 'submit' His Image and Expression unto God Himself in 1 Cor. 15, showing His Image as A SERVANT to His Spirit, The Spirit which Is God Invisible and unspoken.

This matter of God Himself in Christ is open to view by Paul, here:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And yes, it is a great mystery, as all appearances of God are and remain.

The Spirit of God in Christ in us all who believe is a similar mystery, seldom encompassed personally into the equations of these discussions. If we all saw and respected that He may in fact appear even moreso. There is a continuing 'force of disrespect' that works in this wicked world to this sight and reality.

We are all, who believe, BODY MEMBERS of Him, Him also being 'expressed' therein, but obviously in a much more limited form of light. But that too is part of Gods Directive, of Light shining from the midst of DARKNESS, just as He So Shined and Shines.

John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

What all of us really discuss in these matters are discussions of our imperceptions in our own darkness and we are trying, often vainly, to circumscribe eternal matters that are not really meant for conscription.

We can all write in cyberspace all the day long, or in the past on papyrus, but none of that is a captivity of the Mystery of God, Living and Active.

The Living Word Himself creates these kinds of tensions. When any of us seeks to make God in Christ by whatever understandings, a list of written components it will always fail and rightfully so. There is no such captivity available. The early church fathers dealt with this matter and landed solidly on the fact of these matters being and rightfully remaining

A MYSTERY. And may God ever be so! He is no 'captive' to our sights no matter what they are, and never will be.

They are our pale attempts of perceptions and understandings, all.

I do not believe the early church did us any favors in seeking eternal condemnations upon others in their attempts and should have left off rightfully pointing to the futility of such captivity rather than exalting the petty litmus tests in order to damn. In that effort damnation came into our hearts, all. And we don't do ourselves any favors in that effort, internally.

s

 

[Butch5]

Then who or what was he before he was the Son?

Scripture doesn't really tell us that. Jesus said in John 8:42, ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ." It translates, I for out of the God. In the fire analogy the second fire existed as part of the first fire from the time the first fire began. This is closest analogy I've found. The first Christians understood that God (the Father) alone is unbegotten and that the word or Jesus is the begotten God. They understood that this begetting happened before Creation. Here is a quote from Ignatius as disciple of the apostle John. Since John opened his gospel explaining how the word was God I think Ignatius having studied under John is significant. However, we find the same belief among the other writers also.

Chap. XIV.—Conclusion.​

I write this letter to you from Philippi. May He who is alone unbegotten, keep you stedfast both in the spirit and in the flesh, through Him who was begotten before time began! And may I behold you in the kingdom of Christ! I salute him who is to bear rule over you in my stead: may I have joy of him in the Lord! Fare ye well in God, and in Christ, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

Here is a quote from Justin,

For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that, becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing.

The modern concept of the Trinity, that there have always been three co-equal persons of the Trinity is not what was originally believed. I believe it came from Augustine but I'm not certain. However, it is not the original. We can even see the original belief in the Nicene Creed from about 325 AD.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Note: The word catholic in the creed is not a reference to the Catholic Church. It meant universal.

 

[Butch5]

Before He was the Son, He was not yet created. What was the very beginning of the Father's creation?

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."


Christ is "the beginning of God's creation." Why was Christ the first thing God created?

Colossians 1:15 "He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created by Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell."

Christ was to be The Father's instrument for all the rest of His creation.


Nowhere in all of scripture, does Christ ever claim to be without a beginning. To the contrary He confesses that He is the beginning of God's creation, that His Father is greater than He, and that His Father is His God:

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

2 Corinthians 11:31 "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not."

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."


God the Father created Christ to be the channel for His creation.

The earliest Christians said Christ was begotten not made. The verse in Rev 3 can be translated origin also. Christ is the origin of God's creation.

 

[smaller]

The earliest Christians said Christ was begotten not made. The verse in Rev 3 can be translated origin also. Christ is the origin of God's creation.

The Spirit of Christ in the Old Testament testified to the forthcoming making of His Body, personally, and also a corporate Body, just as personally.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Psalm 132:11
The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

The 'preparation' of The Personal Body of God 'started' with the formation of Adam and Eve, the seed of his coming flesh body started therein through the lineage of election in Israel Alone, with them, even IN them, working and showing His Ways, carried forward to THAT Glorious Day of Incarnation and Good News to men.

And many various and certain promises were declared in that body by The Spirit of Christ with them:

Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

s

 

[Asyncritus]

Look, this is what it says. I don't try to pick holes in it.

I'm not trying to pick holes in anything. It is my habit to think about what is written and first recognise, then try to produce a solution to anything that seems to be a problem.

I see a huge problem here, if your understanding is correct.

So any help you can give in clarifying the matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Asyncritus]

[...]

The 'preparation' of The Personal Body of God 'started' with the formation of Adam and Eve, the seed of his coming flesh body started therein through the lineage of election in Israel Alone, with them, even IN them, working and showing His Ways, carried forward to THAT Glorious Day of Incarnation and Good News to men.

The Personal Body of God????????

Where on earth do you get that from? I've done a fair bit of reading of Scripture, but I can't find any such expression. My Strong's can't either.

Did you get this from some theologian or other? Sounds a bit theologian-ish to me, but not scriptural.

Glorious Day of Incarnation

And what about this????????

I notice somebody above saying the Origen was struggling with Ps 2: 'Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee' and comes up with trinitarian exegesis.

Shame that. I've warned you guys about these theologians before. Here's another warning.

If he only had enough sense to look at what Paul said so simply in Romans 1, none of this would have happened.

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

That was the day that Jesus was officially confirmed to be the Son of God.

There's no such thing as the day of incarnation in scripture. There's a declaration by the Son:

7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Which day? The Day of Resurrection, as Paul says above.

Begotten, incarnation and resurrection are not the same things by a long, long way. See my post above re 'conception'.

 

[smaller]

The Personal Body of God????????

Uh, yeah. Pretty basic premise. The Spirit of God in flesh, Jesus.

Where on earth do you get that from? I've done a fair bit of reading of Scripture, but I can't find any such expression. My Strong's can't either.

Oh please. I take it that those who post here have a reasonable handle on the texts regarding this matter.

Did you get this from some theologian or other? Sounds a bit theologian-ish to me, but not scriptural.

If the Word presents same would it really matter if you saw it or not?

Glorious Day of Incarnation

And what about this????????

Again, a ho hummer.

I notice somebody above saying the Origen was struggling with Ps 2: 'Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee' and comes up with trinitarian exegesis.

Observations of these matters came about to counter various heresies almost immediately in the N.T.

Shame that. I've warned you guys about these theologians before. Here's another warning.

As if you are not likewise engaged? lol

If he only had enough sense to look at what Paul said so simply in Romans 1, none of this would have happened.

There is Romans 1 and there are reflections from readers. They diverge quite often.

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

That was the day that Jesus was officially confirmed to be the Son of God.

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

There's no such thing as the day of incarnation in scripture. There's a declaration by the Son:

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

Which day? The Day of Resurrection, as Paul says above.

The Spirit of God in Christ spoke LONG before His Flesh Body arrival.

Begotten, incarnation and resurrection are not the same things by a long, long way. See my post above re 'conception'.

Depends on the intention of the reader to slice same to pieces. It's not an unusual phenomena.

s

 

[Randy]

This, of course, is a doctrine (a teaching). I am wondering whether you know where it comes from? We do not find the Son in the Old Testament except as prophesy obout a future event. Eternal Sonship actually comes from Origen. He was having a problem with the second Psalm - specifically "You are my son, this day I have begotten you." Reading this it sounds as if the Son has a beginning, "this day I have begotten you." Origen was one of the first to attempt to work out a docrine (a teaching). If the three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, and co-eternal, how then can the Son have a beginng? This is what Origen was struggling. His solution was to interpret the second Psalm passage "this day I have begotten you" as not meaning a point in time, but as the fundamental relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father is always "begetting the Son."

I do not think that this was the correct way to deal with the problem that Origen was trying to deal with. The Second Person of the Trinity was not "the Son" in the Old Testament. He became "the Son" in the New Testament. I realize that my position is not orthodoxy but i believe that mine best fits scritpture.

Jesus stated the Father is the one true God. Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit my Spirit". If Jesus always was and always was God then how does that teaching believe in one God? God is Spirit.

Church's reasoning or answer "mystery".

To me the Jesus who was occupied that human body. (The Son who was) Jesus taught the Father was in Him.

The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Holy Spirit or Spirit of truth is seen in the OT. The Father speaks in terms of that Spirit as His Spirit. That Spirit follows the will of the mind of the Spirit. Just as our spirit follows the will of our minds.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit

There is only one true God and Jesus declared that God was His God and Father.




Randy

 

[farouk]

God in Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is clearly seen in John's Gospel, in many references especially from chapters 13 to 17 and in John's First Epistle, the end of Matthew 28, etc.

 

[John 8:32]

Jesus has always been the Son, but the Second Person of the Trinity has not always been Jesus. In the Old Testament we do not find "the Son" acting within the creation and Jesus has not been born. Yet the Second Person of the Trinity is thought to be at work in the Angel of the LORD.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

There are more, but one is enough. He was not the angel of the LORD, He WAS the LORD!

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[John 8:32]

I am not sure exactly what your are asking. In the Declaration of Independence Jeferson wrote: "We hold these truths to be self evident; that all men are created equal .... " To say that all men are created equal does not mean that they are all the same or that they even have equal talents. It only describes their equality under the law. This is to say that each individual man ought to be equal under the law. The three Persons of the Trinity are "co-equal, and co-eternal" in this sense. There are not levels to God.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Then and future...

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[cleanfreak]

Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[Randy]

Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

The Father is in the Son. The Son speaks the very words of God.

God has a God? God has to tell Himself? As in God had to give to Jesus to give to us? God has to obey Himself to remain in His own love? As Jesus remains in the Fathers love by obeying the Fathers commands. God is greater then Himself as in the Father is greater then Jesus? God has to receive authority to Himself? Why? Arn't you stating Jesus always was God? What does being God mean to you?

God has a God? Himself? As in :
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches


If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

Randy

 

[Asyncritus]

This is not to be understood as Christ being the start of God's creation, as that would contradict many passages but rather it is to be understood as Christ being the "beginner" and "author" of creation.

The passages you now quote, all demonstrate quite clearly that Christ is the Author of the New Creation - not the whole shoot from Gen 1.1 and before.

Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. (ESV)

This simply means that without the resurrected Christ, a person is dead. In the resurrected Christ, he is alive - as the following passages show clearly:

John 1:4 In him was [this is the imperfect tense - which means the life WAS in Him when He was here, IS in Him, now He's in heaven, and WILL BE when He returns] life; and the life was the light of men.

Now notice that John tells us what the 'light' really represents - ie 'life' from the dead.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[This is how He is the Author of life. Hebrews clarifies:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect -[note the implication that He wasn't, before His resurrection], he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [Self-explanatory in terms of the Author of life]

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. [Same again].

We must also consider what was already given in Rev 1:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

You may not have noticed, but "who is and who was and who is to come' are really the meanings of the Name Ye-ho-vah.

Therefore, this is the divine imprimatur on the book of Revelation - God's signature as it were.
....

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.

Not sure why you quoted this passage.
[FONT=&quot]
....

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hell.
(ESV)

God has given His credentials. Jesus now gives His own: and what are they? That He is the first and last WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD, and now lives forevermore. No more, no less than that, unless you are determined to do a good bit of context-yanking.

Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: '

The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. (ESV)

Precisely.

[/FONT]

 

[Asyncritus]

Right from the beginning of Revelation, we see that God is referred to as "the Alpha and the Omega" and Jesus as "the first and the last" (Alpha being the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega being the last). It is also significant then that we find Jesus repeating these same words in the last chapter:

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." (ESV)

The beginning and end of what?

Answer, of the procession from the grave. Some will emerge
and return there, and some will emerge and receive eternal life.

Dan 12.2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Just so there's no mistake, here's Paul:

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning (= the Alpha), the firstborn from the dead (= the firstborn of all creation); that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rev 1.5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Openeth and shutteth what? Answer: the gates of the grave.
With what? The keys of hell and of death.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning (= the Alpha), the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So what are the ALL THINGS of Col 1.18? Answer: the church.

'Head', 'beginning', 'firstborn', and 'pre-eminence' are ALL to do with the church, not the whole of creation. Proof:

Head: the head of the body, the church

The beginning: of what? The church’s procession from the grave, Why> Because He is the firstborn from the dead.

Firstborn: just as clearly, the firstborn of the dead. Incidentally, God said:

Ps 89.27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Therefore, at the time the Psalm was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn. Israel was at the time. (Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.

That title was taken away from Israel because of their misbehaviour (see i Chr 5.1 for a worked example), and given to the more worthy Son, Jesus.

He now, as the firstborn, has the pre-minence. Where? In the church, which is described as the ALL THINGS.

What is significant here is that the very context you are highlighting in Col 1 contradicts the idea that Jesus was created.

Notice verse 16: "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

Several versions translate: 'by him' as 'in him:’

16 for in him were all things created, ERV
16 οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα (en is commonly translated as IN, not 'by')

'In Him' is easily understandable, if we are talking about the church - because it is only by baptism INTO His name that we become created members:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. RSV

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

If "firstborn" in verse 15 meant that Jesus was created, it would contradict verse 16 which clearly shows that Jesus could not have been created. As it is, this verse is in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3 and 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus cannot have been created unless we accept these verses as false and being in error.

I think your understanding is deficient in this respect.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

As quoted above, at the time Ps 89 was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn. And note also, He WAS MADE God's firstborn.

Therefore, He was not such from creation, since Ps 89 is all to do with the promises made to David in 2 Sam 7.

So, having that context, we must understand that "firstborn" has more than one meaning. The meaning appropriate here is that of preeminence and Jesus's sovereignty over all of creation.

It would be most unreasonable if Jesus is now Lord over all creation. If He is, then what is God’s place in all this? He has been ousted – which is where trinitarianism leads. Not allowable.

Why? Because

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, [that is God Himself] to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

You will also observe that ‘thou’, the singular pronoun is used here. That means God alone.
That being the case, Jesus cannot be Lord of all creation.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)

Incorrect. You are taking these verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture. You simply cannot divorce these texts from all that Scripture states.

That is precisely what you are forced to do. The context of the individual passages shows clearly exactly what is meant by the verses in question, and the concept that Christ is the Author of the New Creation cannot be faulted or denied. I would be interested to have your comments on the above remarks on the subject.

John 8.58 is another case in point.

First, it makes no grammatical sense at all.

Second, since it doesn’t do so, then you cannot press it into service in a disputable context, and especially cannot make it say something which is so entirely contrary to the whole tenor of scripture

Third, you need to expound it in the context in which it is found, and demonstrate its true meaning.

Only then can you press it into Trinitarian service.

None are in disagreement with the Trinity.

But as I have shown, they ALL are in disagreement with the trinity. And you need to produce some careful exposition of each of the major passages above, and show that my understanding is incorrect.

 

[Free]

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

The Father is in the Son. The Son speaks the very words of God.

God has a God? God has to tell Himself? As in God had to give to Jesus to give to us? God has to obey Himself to remain in His own love? As Jesus remains in the Fathers love by obeying the Fathers commands. God is greater then Himself as in the Father is greater then Jesus? God has to receive authority to Himself? Why? Arn't you stating Jesus always was God? What does being God mean to you?

God has a God? Himself? As in :
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches


If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

Randy

The problem is Randy, that you are doing what every anti-trinitarian does, and that is post only those verses which show the humanity of Jesus. I can post many which show the deity of Jesus and that he has always existed in some way. So what you need to do is provide substantial reasons as to why the verses which speak of Jesus' humanity overrule the ones that speak of his deity.

The doctrine of the Trinity attempts to make sense of all that is stated in Scripture--verses which speak of his deity do not overrule those that speak of his humanity and vice versa.

 

[WIP]

If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

Because he's God and he can.

 

[Knotical]

Because he's God and he can.