The Trinity

[John 8:32]

Excuse me, but I asked a question which you have ignored, avoided or something else. Here it is again:

In the beginning OF WHAT?

It's no use pointing to Gen 1.1. It might just as well have been any one of these:

Judges 7:19 So Gideon, and the hundred men that were with him, came unto the outside of the camp in the beginning of the middle watch; and they had but newly set the watch: and they blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers that were in their hands.

Ruth 1:22 So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning of barley harvest.

2 Samuel 21:9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.

Ezra 4:6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 26:1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word from the LORD, saying,

Jeremiah 27:1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jeremiah 28:1 And it came to pass the same year, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah,

Do those passages refer to Gen 1.1 as well? If not, why do you assume that Jn 1.1 does so refer?

Thanks for your answer to the question.

Perhaps you should reread post #312, you asked that question of someone else, that is why I did not address it.

Sorry, what's your point here? If you don't know any Hebrew, you can get yourself into a fine mess, so be careful.

One does not need to be a Hebrew scholar to understand the difference between a singular and plural noun. Elohim is plural, meaning more than one (singular).

ood. That proves that Jesus has God's permission to sit on the Father's throne. Therefore they are not 'one' or even 'equal'. If the queen of England gave you permission to sit on her throne, does that make you equal to her? I doubt it somehow.

And furthermore, the faithful will ALSO sit on that throne. Does that make them equal to God too? You know that's nonsense.



I don't understand the question. He prayed to His Father in heaven, who was greater than Himself. A very reasonable thng to do, but not from a trinitarian POV.


Good. The Father is greater than all, says Jesus, and we are to glorify Him by our good works - just as He (Jesus) did. I seek not my own glory, He said, but the glory of Him that sent me.



Definitely not - or I would be accused of schizophrenia. The Father did not forsake the Son.

But your point is strong in favour of my case.



I'm a little perplexed here. Are you saying thatJesus is NOT God, or what? These last few points are very powerful evidence that He is not, but started off as if He was.

Which is it?

That seems to be easily determined.

 

[icee]

In case you don't realise it, the Jews were trying to trump up the absolute worst charge they could against Jesus so they could stone Him.

You may recall that the subject wasn't even mentioned at Jesus' trial.

Why was that, do you think?

But to show how wrong you are, YOU ARE TAKING UP THE SAME POSITION AS THE JEWS DID. They were wrong, and you are just as wrong.

Jesus' answer, at every point, denies their accusation:

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Do you still stand with the Jews? After all that?

There you go multiplying words again in the face of plain scripture to continue in the wrong direction. It is you who believe like those Jews...that Jesus is NOT equal to God. You are denying that he is the Son by saying this!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

 

[John 8:32]

There you go multiplying words again in the face of plain scripture to continue in the wrong direction. It is you who believe like those Jews...that Jesus is NOT equal to God. You are denying that he is the Son by saying this!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Hmmm, icee, me thinks you do see!

 

[Robert Hern]

Asyncritus is correct in part that we cannot diminish who Jesus was before His crucifiction

Jesus is from heaven, He is the Word. He is God. We are to live by every Word of God. We cannot live by what we feel, what we think or any passion.
The Word of God is the final authority and not to be changed just because we believe differently. These are His thoughts, His ways, His Words, not ours.
Jesus, as a man, the Bible distinctly mentions limitations when He became flesh until His resurrection

He can do nothing unless the Father shows Him
He was lower than the angels
Before the resurrection, He knew not of the day or the hour

Matthew 24:36
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[John 8:32]

Asyncritus is correct in part that we cannot diminish who Jesus was before His crucifiction

Jesus is from heaven, He is the Word. He is God. We are to live by every Word of God. We cannot live by what we feel, what we think or any passion.
The Word of God is the final authority and not to be changed just because we believe differently. These are His thoughts, His ways, His Words, not ours.
Jesus, as a man, the Bible distinctly mentions limitations when He became flesh until His resurrection

He can do nothing unless the Father shows Him
He was lower than the angels
Before the resurrection, He knew not of the day or the hour

Matthew 24:36
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

He was lower than the angels only when in the flesh, I am assuming that is what you meant anyway.

He is subordinate to the Father in all things, this He says Himself, but, I think He is a quick study.

He may still not know the day and the hour, perhaps there are some things the Father retains to Himself. No matter, Christ was the Word, the Creator, the LORD, is the Savior and will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords greater than all except the Father.

 

[Free]

Asyncritus is correct in part that we cannot diminish who Jesus was before His crucifiction

But that is precisely what he is doing. I have said time and time again that those who deny the Trinity, more often than not, do it on the basis of ignoring or in some way twisting those passages which speak of the deity of Christ. We cannot and must not sacrifice he his deity for his humanity or vice versa. The doctrine of the Trinity takes both into account.

 

[Robert Hern]

At what point in biblical time was (God) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit acknowledged in scripture

Is this a clue as to when the trinity came into being?

We cannot assume anything without scripture.

 

[Knotical]

At what point in biblical time was (God) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit acknowledged in scripture

Is this a clue as to when the trinity came into being?

We cannot assume anything without scripture.

Just because it wasn't until the New Testament when all three were referred to in the same breath does not mean that is when they suddenly started to exist. They all existed, always, therefore, the trinity always existed.

 

[farouk]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as distinct Persons but working together in unity, are seen in numerous references in John's Gospel especially in chapters 13 to 17, and in John's First Epistle, the end of Matthew 28 and elsewhere.

 

[rrowell]

Asyncritus is correct in part that we cannot diminish who Jesus was before His crucifiction

It wasn't just the new testament that declared the "oneness" unbiblical false doctrine:

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

"Oneness" is unbiblical, "us" and "our" means there were more than "one"

 

[Free]

At what point in biblical time was (God) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit acknowledged in scripture

Is this a clue as to when the trinity came into being?

We cannot assume anything without scripture.

The Trinity has always been or Jesus cannot be God.

 

[rrowell]

At what point in biblical time was (God) The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit acknowledged in scripture

Is this a clue as to when the trinity came into being?

We cannot assume anything without scripture.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Matthew 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Acts 10:38 (KJV)
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


2 Corinthians 13:14 (KJV)
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.


And to borrow a fact made by Aaron Erhardt from the South End Church of Christ:

John 14:26—“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
​

John 14:26 (Oneness Twist)—“But the Comforter, which is me, whom I will send in my name, I shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
​

 

[Robert Hern]

yes i agree

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

the Word was with God, this is: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Genesis 1:26

The Word became flesh, He is now the Son

Matthew 3:16-17 (KJV)16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[Robert Hern]

John 1:1 (KJV)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


-was the Word God and also with God, are they not the Same and seperate?

 

[Butch5]

The Trinity has always been or Jesus cannot be God.

Hi Free,

Why would you say that?

 

[smaller]

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Are there 3 Spirits that are in the heart of believers? Uh, no.

How about 4?

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Are you haunted or what? Is it NOT CLEAR what you received and from WHOM?

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

s

 

[Asyncritus]

The Trinity has always been or Jesus cannot be God.

Now that's how you beg a question!

 

[Free]

Now that's how you beg a question!

The Bible clearly shows that the Son has always existed, therefore, the Trinity has always existed. If the Trinity hasn't always existed, which was implied in the question I was addressing, then that would mean there was a point when the Son didn't exist (unless one argues for a binity and says only the Holy Spirit didn't exist). If there was a point when the Son did not exist, he is not God, by definition.

 

[farouk]

'The same was in the beginning with God' (John 1).

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Free,

If there was a point when the Son did not exist, he is not God, by definition.

With all due respect: "If there was a point when the Son did not exist, he is not God,...........by man's definition."

Christ tells us that He is "the beginning of the creation of God." How is it possible for Christ to be "the beginning of the creation of God," if God was not before the beginning?

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."


It is deceitful to speak of being "before the beginning," if there was actually an 'earlier beginning.' Such human mental machinations always bring God down to our level, and still fail to establish what is the beginning. It is only those who speculate "above what is written" who would dare to suggest that the creator of the universe had a 'manlike' beginning. That is human reasoning which is trying to establish a Biblical grounds for an unscriptural doctrine of a trinity....... or binity.


1 Corinthians 4:6 "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."


First, the English word 'Godhead' is a translation of the Greek theotees, which is an abstract noun for theos, the usual Greek word translated 'God'. A proper translation would be "deity." In addition, an abstract noun is one indicating a quality, as goodness, beauty." From this it is seen that when Paul wrote of Christ Jesus that "In Him dwelleth all the fulness of deity" he said that all the qualities of God dwelt in Christ Jesus our Lord.



The scriptures clearly state that the Godhead (theotees) is to be understood "by the things that are made."

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."


"They are without excuse" means you and me. It was years after His resurrection that these verses were written describing how "the things that are made" explain Christ's relationship to His Father.


1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD."


"The things that are made" give us no excuse for misunderstanding Christ's relationship to His Father. Seriously meditate upon this:

What is being referred to (the things that are made) is the relationship which God made of a husband and a wife. Biblically speaking, we are not talking about the three forms of water, or the three parts of an egg. It is the marriage relationship as it is revealed here in 1 Corinthians 11, which is "the things that are made," and which reveal Christ's relationship to His Creator.

Paul explains in this same chapter that just as all men come through the God-ordained channel of a woman, it is still true that the woman came out of the man, in the same way Christ came out from His Father and was then used by His Father as the channel for the creation of all the rest of mankind and all the rest of creation.

That is what pleased the "one God of whom are ALL THINGS (Christ included) We all, as well as the entire creation, came into being through Christ, but it all is "of God" the Father.


1 Corinthians 11:11 "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 11:12 For AS THE WOMAN IS OF THE MAN, even so is the man also by the woman; but ALL THINGS of God."


Most people simply cannot see the words "one God the Father of whom are ALL THINGS." They actually ignore those words and emphasize the "and one Lord" as if that was part of "one God" without the 'and,' which separates the one from the other.

1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are ALL THINGS, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."


For emphasis:

1 Corinthians 11:12 "For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but ALL THINGS [including the "one lord Jesus Christ"] of God [the Father].


Look very carefully: "AS the woman is OF the man... all things are OF God." If Christ were not OF the Father...AS the woman is OF the man, then Christ would BE the Father.


But what saith the scripture? Here it is in this very chapter:

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God [the Father "of whom are all things"].


Those who follow the traditions of men simply do not believe that "AS the woman is OF the man...ALL THINGS are of God [the Father]." ALL THINGS (ALL means ALL) of THE FATHER include our Lord Jesus Christ.