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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology
- Thread starter TibiasDad
- Start date
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
These verses do not mention of the order of salvation. There is no mention of the spiritual rebirth in the first two examples so it is not possible to know from the verse whether or not regeneration (spiritual rebirth) comes before or after repentance.
Example:
You must do "A" then "B" to get the result "C"
If "A" = "Spiritual rebirth" and "B" = "repentance" and "C" = "salvation ... then the verse above simple infers you must do "B" to get "C". The absence of "A" simply means the order of salvation is not expounded upon in the verse.
In point of fact, you first 2 examples infer you must do "B" to get "C" and the last example infers you must do "A" to get "C"
Mark 1:1-5
Same comment as Mat. 4:17.
Interesting aside: The repentance spoken of here (and therefore possibly in Mat. 4:17) quite possibly did not lead to salvation, at least as we know it today. It almost certainly did not lead to the indwelling of the Spirit after Pentecost which is a sign of Spiritual Rebirth.
Re: Acts 19:2 He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [in Jesus as the Christ]?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he asked, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John performed a baptism of repentance, continually telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, [to confidently accept and joyfully believe] in Jesus [the Messiah and Savior].” 5 After hearing this, they were baptized [again, this time] in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in [unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesying.
Their answer “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” confirmed to the apostle that they were not yet Christians. They were unaware of the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost. This showed that they were probably Old Testament saints. Their response to Paul’s next question, “Into what then were you baptized?” further clarified their status. They responded, “Into John’s baptism,”.
” The apostle’s statement offers further proof that these disciples were not Christians as we define it; they apparently did not know that Jesus was the promised Messiah whom John proclaimed. Significantly, Paul did not instruct them about how to receive the Spirit, but about Jesus.
All that being said, Mark 1:1-5 is not the best example of present day conversion (faith and repentance).
John 3:5-7 Same answer. No mention of order of salvation in relation to repentance.
Actually, in this case there is not mention of repentance, but only being "spiritually reborn" which is the same as "Spiritually alive". Using your logic the verses prove confusing in regard to what order of salvation: repentance or being made "spiritually alive".
Example:
Mat. 4:17 says your must repent because Kingdom of God is at Hand
.... so you assume repentance comes before becoming 'spiritually alive'
Mark 1:1-5 says your must repent because Kingdom of God is at Hand
.... so you assume repentance comes before becoming 'spiritually alive'
John 3:5-7 you must be born again (become spiritually alive) to enter the kingdom of God
.... if you are consistent you must conclude that becoming "spiritually alive" comes before "repentance'
If you are consistent you have a unsolvable contradiction.
You are reading way too much into the verses IMO.
Hospes
Member
Sorry for dropping out for a bit. I may have been gone. but I've been thinking.
G.K. Chesterton said that one of the reasons he was attracted to orthodox Christianity is that as he understood it better, it explained what he experienced in life. He likened it to a key, that when placed in the lock of his own experience, it fit the lock and the lock turned. C. S. Lewis wrote, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” I mention these because I want to explain why for me what you have written above has no attraction to me because it does not fit my experience or shed light on how I see "everything else." It also does not fit with my understanding of the Bible.
I picture your view of you choosing Good as a chain, with each link being a necessary ingredient for the choice to ultimately be for Good. Though many links may be attributed to God, there is one link for which you take responsibility. If you use your free-will to choose not-Good, one link is broken and the chain fails. You make it clear that God has allowed you this one link, i.e. His sovereignty over any specific choice of yours is handed over to you. You get to choose whether or not you will allow His will to be done in a specific choice you face. Ultimately, you have sovereignty over His will in the specific choice. Though I used to believe as you, now the thought of my being able to stymie God, even in a singular moral choice, is unthinkable to me. Though you may be repulsed by a God that retains His sovereignty over everything, I cannot imagine the uncertainty I'd have if I believed otherwise.
My middle son was a combat Marine in Afghanistan. Even though it may seem counterintuitive, I took great comfort that every bullet fired at my son flew according to the will a sovereign Father who loved me and loved my son even more than I did. Even killed or maimed, I'd rather know my son's fate was in the hands an absolutely sovereign God than one who has chosen to let His creatures have a final say in a specific choice. Let me reiterate: I find great comfort in a God who is in absolute and total control. (BTW, my son came home safe and sound, but not from the lack of people trying to make him dead.)
When I read the scriptures, I do not see a God who seems constrained by anything other than His own nature. Look at these passages:
Psalm 33:10–11 (ESV)
10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations. ]
Psalm 115:3 (ESV)
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
Amos 3:6 (ESV)
6 Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
Lamentations 3:37–38 (ESV)
37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?
Proverbs 21:1 (ESV)
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;
he turns it wherever he will.
Psalm 135:5–10 (ESV)
5 For I know that the LORD is great,
and that our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.
7 He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth,
who makes lightnings for the rain
and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
8 He it was who struck down the firstborn of Egypt,
both of man and of beast;
9 who in your midst, O Egypt,
sent signs and wonders
against Pharaoh and all his servants;
10 who struck down many nations
and killed mighty kings,
And the list goes on and on. (Jesus did not ask Lazarus to rise, He commanded and Lazarus arose.) These passages, and many more, present a God who is very much in charge and shows no hint of bending his will to the creatures He fashioned from dust.
Also, knowing my own weakness and bent toward evil, I need a God that will cause me to finish my race and take me home to Himself. I desperately need an author and finisher of my faith. I DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES to be left with decisions to choose Good. To imagine myself believing as you do is terrifying. I do not want my salvation to rest on such a frail web of my own will to do good.
The scriptures speak of having no room for boasting. In my mind, your belief gives you much to boast about. Every single righteous choice to do good, from your choice to be born again to your choice to not jaywalk, has a singular chain link you can point to and say, "Without my free-will decision, it would not have happened." I am good with looking to my Father and recognizing it was Him from beginning to end that brought about my salvation. To Him be ALL the glory. Amen.
PS - Sorry for taking so long to get to responding to our earlier dialog.
Yes Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22
It's the same greek word. Look for yourself. Gal 5:22
You are responsible to explain your own scripture. Please don't put your labor on someone else.
When a person is drawn to Christ they are being led of the Spirit inwardly. The word draw helkō means:
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
That inward power is the Spirit leading to Christ Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The word led means:
- to lead, guide, direct
- to lead through, conduct to: to something
- to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind
The Spirit of God in New Birth leads to Christ. He leads into all Truth and Christ is the truth Jn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me
i am well aware of what the word led means romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.the moment we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH .we accept by faith,, i know you been schooled by calvinism .i also know out side calvinism there is nothing else that can penetrate that boundary
So now you have my scriptural basis for why I believe that the ones being drawn to Christ are the regenerate by the Spirit.
and i disagree with your interpretation
jasonc
Member
if said son commits suicide from ptsd , and or has anger issues ,reccurent dreams and can no longer work .
Glory to God .
yes Gof allows that but much of that I posted I have .to assume a son is safe upon return ..wait 15 years or a stress big enough .you probably can't see it but I know my,demon
commands wouldnt be listed if you had a will to resist .
quench not the Holy Ghost
Grieve not the Holy Ghost
obey this or that ,.it wouldn't be needed because you have no,will.
not even my pastor teaches your way .ptsd and those who die from it or have it ,their families and themselves will not see the faith the same .i know ,daily battle
Glory to God .
yes Gof allows that but much of that I posted I have .to assume a son is safe upon return ..wait 15 years or a stress big enough .you probably can't see it but I know my,demon
commands wouldnt be listed if you had a will to resist .
quench not the Holy Ghost
Grieve not the Holy Ghost
obey this or that ,.it wouldn't be needed because you have no,will.
not even my pastor teaches your way .ptsd and those who die from it or have it ,their families and themselves will not see the faith the same .i know ,daily battle
Hospes
Member
[Addendum to Post 883]
It's hard for me to grasp having prayer in which I plead with God for a person's salvation, healing of their marriage, or even an increase in their devotion to the Gospel, all the while knowing I am asking Him to do something He has ultimately left in the hands of the person for whom I am praying. I guess I could ask God that He does what He is willing, but in the back of my mind I'd know He's not willing to actually fully affect my request; He'd only go so far as what the person's free-will allows. Just seems to me my prayers would be tepid. Right now, I believe in a God who is pleased to use my pleading as a means to effectuate His will. He hears my prayer and He is fully capable and hindered by no force in heaven or earth in answering my prayer.
I have been very diligent to ask you about and understand your beliefs on free-will and how such a belief impacts the nature of God's role and our role in life. As I mentioned in the earlier post, your view holds no attraction to me. Even if God can somehow work out His will in the macro-world in spite of giving people free-will to make their own choices, I desire a God who is able to decisively work out His the next time I am tempted to be unkind to my wife, i.e. a God who is sovereign over my next decision to choose His goodness over my propensity to sin. Though you may disagree with me, I see the God in the Bible to be the God I desire. Alluding to my previous post, the key fits and the lock turns.
It's hard for me to grasp having prayer in which I plead with God for a person's salvation, healing of their marriage, or even an increase in their devotion to the Gospel, all the while knowing I am asking Him to do something He has ultimately left in the hands of the person for whom I am praying. I guess I could ask God that He does what He is willing, but in the back of my mind I'd know He's not willing to actually fully affect my request; He'd only go so far as what the person's free-will allows. Just seems to me my prayers would be tepid. Right now, I believe in a God who is pleased to use my pleading as a means to effectuate His will. He hears my prayer and He is fully capable and hindered by no force in heaven or earth in answering my prayer.
I have been very diligent to ask you about and understand your beliefs on free-will and how such a belief impacts the nature of God's role and our role in life. As I mentioned in the earlier post, your view holds no attraction to me. Even if God can somehow work out His will in the macro-world in spite of giving people free-will to make their own choices, I desire a God who is able to decisively work out His the next time I am tempted to be unkind to my wife, i.e. a God who is sovereign over my next decision to choose His goodness over my propensity to sin. Though you may disagree with me, I see the God in the Bible to be the God I desire. Alluding to my previous post, the key fits and the lock turns.
Hospes
Member
It's a legitimate point, but I think there is a reasonable way of seeing commands differently than the way you see them. What if God gives commands - and warnings for that matter - as an instrument to give grace and strength to do His will? When a coach commands his players to "give it all they've got" or run harder or don't give up, his intent is to stir up inside his players a stronger desire and strength to do better. His command is a means to motivate - encourage and strengthen - them to do what is necessary to win.
Furthermore, you seem to think without what is defined as "free-will", there is no will at all. I know of no one that denies that human will exists. There are detractors of my beliefs that paint cartoonish pictures of my beliefs as robotics, but they have yet to understand what I believe. I am fully convinced we have a will and we exercise it. The place I believe God works is not in forcing my will, but in forming the motives that direct my will. This brings us back to the paragraph above; in giving commands, God's intent is to make His will known and to motivate us to choose it.
My son finds the way I "see the faith" as a bulwark against the trauma of battle. To find peace in the knowledge of God's sovereignty is a bedrock to which an anchor will hold.
jasonc
Member
sounds great ,but i know reformed missionary in India who has been left for dead and cant sleep well in India.he describes that ,its his struggle daily .see that suffering he has ,he still preaches but i know that he battles it
no faith won't mean you won't just forget it .I once thought thar way until a few years ago ,about 6 ,it intensified three years ago
if obey is merely just a coaching then how is it that the reformed Presbyterians are called the frozen chosen ,and don't witness much.the arp,the oldest reformed church is not doing much toward growth and some churches have closed .
God willed that ?
Hospes
Member
Forgive me if I sounded like my faith in God makes all sweetness and light. God, for His purposes, does not take away all our sin nature or all suffering. For
...Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Wow! I am gobsmacked at how you read what I wrote and then thought my point was to equate obedience to coaching. Regarding denominations that seem to not act consistent with their creeds, I think lamenting their condition and praying that God awakens them is more beneficial than flippantly giving them names such as the frozen chosen.
What is your alternative? That God somehow is not capable or willing to stop it? In that God has a permissive will and at times allows evil to run its course for His purposes, yes he wills it. (I assume you understand the notion that God has a permissive will and perfect will.)
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jasonc
Member
you words against what wondering were that she can't hinder God at,all.
she said i .can choose to repent or to follow .you implied she can't resist God .
meaning God if he God wants you to obey ,you simply will.
plenty of arminism believe that God can accomplish is plans without us.I don't reach the lost ,another will.no one dies without hearing the chance to repent
Hospes
Member
Romans 9:19–21 (ESV)
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
It may not sit well with people, but it's scripture.
jasonc
Member
here we go
who hardened pharaohs heart 7 times ?
answer pharaoh,then God ,
so yes ,you,just argued you have. no will because the clay we are can't make itself .its shaped by the potter ,we aren't responsble to repent because God thinks for us ,breathes for us.
literally said in church.
if you woke up to brush your teeth ,God wanted you to brush your teeth ,no coincidences .
if you take that to ever thing you do ,you can't have a will.personally I believe in that God allows us to make choices ,good or bad and lets us learn or not from our mistakes ,whether eternal or not one of those ,a,job loss or such like isn't an eternal affair .the first job i had no longer exists .
I don't buy the argument you made,I personally know a pastor who. closed two churches ,not because he wanted to but because no one came at some point . a reformed person ,God i guess didn't care to use him to pastor those churches
our choices can hinder God ,
and Jesus couldn't heal ,note not he choose not too was the wording ,in those towns because of their unbelief
growth is molding the church too
Why can't you share your source or did you just hear someone else say this.
FYI, Under the guidelines of CF we are to present our sources of information so others can go read them.
Far be it for me to trample upon your sincere faith.
However, I feel that you already know my feelings and will be receiving no surprises.
I respect GK Chesterton but we cannot each pick Christianity based on our own experiences; at least, not because it "fit the lock".
We can agree that Christianity must make sense to us and we can agree that we do experience our faith but it also cannot be different for
each person and it cannot be based on how that person "feels" about it. In fact, feelings have nothing to do with Christianity - it is the facts
that we must be guided by.
It matters not that what I write has no attraction to you because it does not fit your experience.
The problem is that it does not fit the lock that God has created and here is why:
When we read the bible we need to understand a couple of facts that some just pass over,,,,
One is that God has a nature and we must understand God's nature or everything we read will be misinterpreted,,,as is the
case in the reformed faith.
If we want to believe that Jesus was/is God...then we need to listen to what He taught and preached.
Jesus taught that God is a loving God, a merciful God, and a Just God.
These three go together very well in explaining God's nature. If I had to pick only one,,,I'd pick LOVE.
GOD IS LOVE. Not the mamby pamby love that some think of,,,,but His very nature is such that He created a special place
for us and made it so that we could enjoy it.
Everything we read has to be read in light of the above.
If something we read does not match with God's nature...then we must find another resolution to the apparent problem at hand
since t he bible does not contradict itself.
Second is that the bible was inspired by God. It was not written by God. It was written by men and they began to write
it about 4,000 years ago - it was the bronze age. God picked the Hebrews for a reason (what became the Hebrews). They were good
at telling stories and they were good at passing them down from generation to generation. God wanted man to know Him and He wanted
to have an actual relationship with man.
Much of what happened in the O.T. was not caused by God, but the persons of that time attributed everything to God --- even what He did not do.
This is all to say that God wants a relationship with us,,,but He is not going to have a direct action in things we do ----
when He does we know it as a miracle.
We take responsibility for all the links.
God does not cause miracles to happen at every moment of the day.
It's our responsibility to live as God would want us to.
He does not coerce us to do anything we do not want to do.
He does not force us to make a moral decision.
He is not a deterministic God.
How lowly and impotent must a god be that is fearful of giving his creatures free will?
How afraid must he by of losing sovereignty if he allows his creatures to decide freely for themselves?
The above sounds like nosnsense.
"we allow His will to be done".
Are you serving the same God I'm serving?
My God's will is ALWAYS done --- but He made us in His image and gave us a will that is free to choose good or evil.
God wants our love to be true.
If God determined that we love Him (we Christians) then what kind of weird love is that?
Should a wife love her husband freely - or should he coerce her into loving him?
I'm not repulsed by a God that retains sovereignty over everything.
EVERY Christian believes God is sovereign and that He controls everything to achieve His end.
This is not in conflict with my free will -
In fact it just makes Him more glorious, more sovereign, more merciful, more just and more loving.
I've spoken to calvinists that feel superior to other Christians because they can accept this unloving, unmercifu and unjust God when
others cannot. This is not very humble is it? Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, the gentle, the merciful, the pure in heart....
Imagine that Jesus is telling US to be what the Father is not!
Are me made in His image or not?
God is gentle, merciful and holy (pure), as He desires us to be.
Calvinism does not assure certainty because you have to reach the end before you know that you were not caused
by God to fall away through no fault of yours.
My faith assures me that God will keep me till the end as long as I dwell with Him and desire to be a disciple of Jesus and follow
God's commands.
I thank God for your son's escape from harm.
But think of those in that battlefield that God did "not choose".
I can bear that some may be atheist and not love God and not have him in their lives - wherever they happen to be. This is their decision.
But how would I serve a God that purposefully passed over most of mankind and gave no comfort to those persons or their family? I would not.
I'm happy that those that wish to have God in their lives have the opportunity to call out to Him and He casts no one out.
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