The Virgin of the Lilies

[bibleberean]

Another blatant blasphemous lie spread by the harlot church is that God has exalted their devil goddess above all other human beings and crowned their deceiver "Queen of the Universe.

Not once do the scriptures make this claim...

"Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)"

Notes:

10. In the Encyclical "Intersodalicia" (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, "Essentials of Evangelical Theology," Vol. 1, page 196.

11. In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald GA. Bloesch, "Essentials of Evangelical Theology", Vol. 1, page 196.

The earthly grandmother of Mary must have also brought "spiritual healing" too if we use the rancid logic of Rome...

Catholics claim that their false Mary is always pointing us to Jesus.

That isn't true. The Catholic Mary wants rosaries said and shrines built to honor her.

Jesus is so often depicted as a child in heaven in mom's all powerful arms in Catholic art.

Check out this site that shows nuns changing the clothes of the "little infant Jesus". You won't believe your eyes...

http://karmel.at/prag-jesu/english/eng/saticken.htm

Do you think the apostles would have approved of such weird behaviour?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The goddess of the RCC and OC churches is simply the "Queen of Heaven" regurgitated.

Sticking with the barf motif, eh? It's a small wonder you never digest what is given for you to chew on, when you insist on vomiting like Linda Blair in The Exorcist. Here is, again, something to chew on:
1. We have no 'goddess.'
2. From wikipeda.org

The major origin and impetus of veneration of Mary comes from the Christological controversies of the early church - many debates denying in some way the divinity or humanity of Jesus Christ. So not only would one side affirm that Jesus was indeed God, but would assert the conclusion that Mary was the mother of God.

Both Roman Catholics and Orthodox make a clear distinction between such veneration (which is also due to the other saints) and worship which is due to God alone. Mary, they point out, is not in herself divine, and has only such powers to help as are granted to her by God in response to her prayers. Such miracles as may occur through Mary's intercession are ultimately the result of God's love and omnipotence. The term worship is used by some theologians to subsume both categories: sacrificial worship and worship of praise: Orestes Brownson in his book Saint Worship is a good example of that usage. Roman Catholicism distinguishes three forms of honor: "latria", due only to God, and usually translated by the English word adoration; "hyperdulia", accorded only to the Blessed Virgin Mary, usually translated simply as veneration; and "dulia", accorded to the rest of the saints, also usually translated as veneration. The Orthodox distinguish between worship and veneration but do not accept a sort of "hyper"-veneration only for the Theotokos.

Catholics and Orthodox feel no remorse or conviction because in their blinded state they cannot see their own evil.

Simply insert the word "I" or "we" in the place of "Catholics and Orthodox" and "they." Then we will have a very profound and true statement.

 

[thessalonian]

"Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)"

Notes:

10. In the Encyclical "Intersodalicia" (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, "Essentials of Evangelical Theology," Vol. 1, page 196.

11. In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald GA. Bloesch, "Essentials of Evangelical Theology", Vol. 1, page 196.

You will have to forgive me for questioning your sources but the Pius IX quote I find quoted all over as stated. Yet when I look in the encyclical, it bears little resemblance to what about 25 Protestant websites have him stating. I also cannot currently find the Benedict XV Encyclical online to veryfy it's context and accuracy. Considering the distortion of the second quote I am sure you don't mind me looking in to it futher.

 

[bibleberean]

CATHOLIC DOCTRINES ABOUT MARY
COMPARED WITH WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS

Mary Ann Collins former nun

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html

"My sources for this section are the Bible and the "Catechism of the Catholic Church," which has numbered paragraphs. For the sake of simplicity and brevity, I will just say "Catechism" plus the number of the paragraph(s). For example, "'Catechism' 411, 493" means "'Catechism of the Catholic Church,' paragraphs numbered 411 and 493".

For each doctrinal category, I will indicate the Catholic doctrine, followed by the appropriate references from the "Catechism". I will follow this with quotations from the Bible which relate to the doctrine. The last book in the Bible is called "The Book of Revelation" in Protestant Bibles and "The Apocalypse" in Catholic Bibles. I will refer to it as "Revelation".

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. ("Catechism" 490-492).

In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Mary knew that she needed a savior.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)

ALL-HOLY -- Mary, "the All-Holy," lived a perfectly sinless life. ("Catechism" 411, 493)

Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy". Romans 3:10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one".

Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless.

Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 1 Peter 2:22 says, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth".

In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.

In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)

BB adds:

The Catholic Mary is not the Mary of the bible. She is a powerful goddess who uses the earth as a footstool.

There are no scriptures or writings in the epistles where we are to turn to Mary for hope or refuge. There are no scriptures which support the making statues of a woman and praying to or through them.

The evidence against these practices is so overwhelming that anyone who states other wise must be labeled a liar and a heretick.

Lev 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

2 Ki 17:12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Ki 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away [did josiah stop using], that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

1 Chr 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Psa 106:36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.

Psa 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

Ezek 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Ezek 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezek 44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

Ezek 44:12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, [in front of their idols] and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.

Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

Micah 1:7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot.

Hab 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled...

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

1 Cor 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


1 Th 1:9 For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols....

 

[bibleberean]

The following is a verbatim Quote from the online Catholic encyclopedia.

New Advent

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm

"Devotion to Our Blessed Lady in its ultimate analysis must be regarded as a practical application of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Seeing that this doctrine is not contained, at least explicitly in the earlier forms of the Apostles' Creed, there is perhaps no ground for surprise if we do not meet with any clear traces of the cultus of the Blessed Virgin in the first Christian centuries."

BB comments.

I'll say you won't find any explicit forms of this doctrine in the early church. 8-)

The "cultus"(cult) of the "Virgin" crept into the church . You won't find the apostles praying the rosary!

Again from New Advent

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm

""The Rosary", says the Roman Breviary, "is a certain form of prayer wherein we say fifteen decades or tens of Hail Marys with an Our Father between each ten, while at each of these fifteen decades we recall successively in pious meditation one of the mysteries of our Redemption."

The same lesson for the Feast of the Holy Rosary informs us that when the Albigensian heresy was devastating the country of Toulouse, St. Dominic earnestly besought the help of Our Lady and was instructed by her, so tradition asserts, to preach the Rosary among the people as an antidote to heresy and sin. From that time forward this manner of prayer was "most wonderfully published abroad and developed [promulgari augerique coepit] by St. Dominic whom different Supreme Pontiffs have in various past ages of their apostolic letters declared to be the institutor and author of the same devotion."

That many popes have so spoken is undoubtedly true, and amongst the rest we have a series of encyclicals, beginning in 1883, issued by Pope Leo XIII, which, while commending this devotion to the faithful in the most earnest terms, assumes the institution of the Rosary by St. Dominic to be a fact historically established. Of the remarkable fruits of this devotion and of the extraordinary favours which have been granted to the world, as is piously believed, through this means, something will be said under the headings FEAST OF THE ROSARY and CONFRATERNITIES OF THE ROSARY"

BB concludes:

We are not to pray the false Catholic Rosary but turn to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith as "an antidote to heresy and sin.

The lying devil goddess wants us to pray to her.... 8-)

Remember Satan and his ministers try to appear as "angels of light" to seduce the faithful!

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[D46]

What's the deal with the woman with the stars over her head? Hmmmm...must be another Romish MISinterpretation of Revelation 12:1 would be my guess as do most of them misinterpret the scriptures.

Revelation 12:1 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This is Israel...not Semiramis!!

BB...I think you're wasting your time. You've sounded the alarm, you've blown the trumpet to warn and it's of no avail. Their blood will not be on your hands.

Ezekiel 33:2-4 (KJV) Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

Titus 3:10-11 (KJV) A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

As if the apostle had said, Avoid and shun, and refuse communion with, him that does obstinately persist in dangerous errors and heresies, and accordingly let him be unto himself
The ministers of the word must at once cast off heretics, that is, those who stubbornly and seditiously disquiet the Church, and will pay no attention to ecclesiastical admonitions

Another way of putting it would be to avoid, leave to himself. This is the only place, in the whole scripture, where this word heretic occurs; and here it evidently means, a man that obstinately persists in contending about "foolish questions," and thereby occasions strife and animosities, schisms and parties in the church. This, and this alone, is an heretic in the scripture sense; and his punishment likewise is here fixed. Shun, avoid him, leave him to himself. As for the Popish sense, "A man that errs in fundamentals," although it crept, with many other things, early into the church, yet it has no shadow of foundation either in the Old or New Testament.

Perhaps Paul didn't know when he wrote to Titus that the word heretic isn't used anymore after Vatican II...we're all "separated brethen" now!!

 

[bibleberean]

Thanks for your concern D46,

You never know what may come of this.

When I was a Catholic my arguments were far superior to the weak ones given here by these people and I still came around. I don't want to keep silent.

Catholics and Orthodox (not Christians) post threads like this one in a Christian forum. They should expect to be rebuked for defending and spreading idolatrous practices and teachings.

If people go back and read the posts in this thread they will see that they don't defend this hersey with scripture.

I quote their own writings but they claim I misrepresent them. :o

Oh well, this saying is true...

Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Yours in Christ,

Robert

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Thanks for your concern D46,

You never know what may come of this.

When I was a Catholic my arguments were far superior to the weak ones given here by these people

What happened? You should go back to being a Catholic because your Landmarkist arguments are circular, based in logical fallacies, and so forth.

Catholics and Orthodox (not Christians)

:roll:

 

[D46]

We NEVER hear sermons from baptist pulpits about anything other than Jesus. Never is the faith of Abraham extolled. Never is Moses preached not spoken of, in proper Elizabethan KJV, or proclaimed from the pulpits of the super-schismites.

OC...

I don't now about Baptist, but Abraham and Moses are preached where I go to church depending on what the topic is when the pastor starts his sermon. He may bound around to quite a few books during the course of his sermon from Galatians to Isaiah then to 2 Samuel and Exodus back to I Corinthians....putting things together. Nevertheless, why shouldn't Jesus be preached? That's what it's all about. If Jesus is God(and he is) and the Bible is about God, you can't get around sermons about Jesus.

Those first two guys you show pictures of I wouldn't give the time of day. If there were destroyers of the faith, they are in the top ten as is anyone who appears on TBN...Benny Hinn particularly and, so is Chuck Colson and all the Crouch's who own this deceitful network. As for Dave Hunt, don't know much about him except I've read his book on "A Woman Rides the Beast"...a most interesting book.

 

[thessalonian]

D46 and BB,

Have I thanked you lately for your prescence on this board. If not let me take this opportunity. You see it is much easier to see the stars in the darkness of the night. When men like you post your distortions it makes it easier for men with rational minds to see the light of the new day that is about to dawn in their lives. I recall being on a board where a thread was started asking the Catholics to list the list of greatest Catholic Apologists who influenced them the most toward the faith. The anwers were given, belloc, augustine, Irenaus, Keating, Hahn, etc. etc. One astute soon to be Catholic named one of the Protestants on the board who posts much of the same tripe you guys do. He said the obvious distortions made it much easier to see the truth. Therefore once again I thank you for your prescence on this board. You make my job much easier.

As for "you never know what might happen", I've been on these boards for 7 tears now and have witnessed MANY Protestants come over to Catholicism. But I only know of perhaps two Catholics who have turned Protestant. As I said, when the light is surrounded by darkness it is easy to see that light and move toward it for someone who wants to be near the light.

Blessings

 

[bibleberean]

"O Virgin, most pure, wholly unspotted, OE Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the universe, you are above all the saints, the hope of the elect and the joy of all the blessed. It is you who have reconciled us with God. You are the only refuge of sinners and the safe harbor of those who are shipwrecked.

You are the consolation of the world, the ransom of captives, the health of the weak, the joy of the afflicted, and the salvation of all. We have recourse to you, and we beseech you to have pity on us. Amen."

St. Ephraim the Syrian (306-373)

The Essential Mary Handbook : a summary of beliefs, practices, and prayers : with a glossary of key terms and cross-referenced to the Catechism of the Catholic Church / [edited and compiled by Judith A. Bauer] Imprint Liguori, Mo. : Liguori Publications, c1999, BX2160.2 .E88 1999 , pp. 111

BB comments:

Mary is not Queen of the Universe...

There is no Queen of the Universe in scriptures. None of the prophets or apostles ever mention such a being...

The Mary is not "above all saints". The real Mary is "blessed among women" not "blessed above women".

Mary is not the "hope of the elect".

Jesus is the blessed hope of the church not Mary.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Notice that Jesus gave Himself for us. Only His sacrifice was sufficient to redeem us.

We are His people. Mary is not even mentioned.

In the above prayer Mary is called the "only refuge of sinners"...

This is blasphemy.

Mary is not a refuge at all. We don't need to run to "big mommy" in the sky.

Why would we? God is our refuge and our strength.

"If God be for us who can be against us?" Romans 8:31


It was not Mary who reconciled us to God


2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Mary is a central figure in Catholic mythology.

When I was attending Catholic grade school at the top of our work sheets we put the initial JMJ which stood for Jesus Mary and Joseph.

Mary is not the "health of the weak".

Jesus is the great divine healer. Mary is never given such a title.

In short this prayer is blasphemous and an insult to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...

This is not the Mary of the bible...

 

[D46]

Surely that's not nail scars I see in her hands!! What utter blasphemy! And, what's this...she's pregnant? The savior not even born yet? Whoever came up wilth that drawing should be put on the racks and stretched from Dan to Beersheba for total contempt of God's word. Their minds have been sabotaged by Hell.

In Mark 3:31-35, we learn, "There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he look round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

Matthew 13:55-56
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?" You see! Mary had a whole litter of kids! Not hardly a perpetual virgin in any language.

Any Protestant that would leave the only true religion and go into paganism has been completely deceived and taken over by the lies of the devil. Or perchance they just like men with long frocks!! They have received strong delusion and have chosen to believe a lie because they had not a love for the truth. 1 Thessalonians 2:11.

2 Peter 2:21-22 (KJV) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[thessalonian]

Mary is not Queen of the Universe...[/b]There is no Queen of the Universe in scriptures. None of the prophets or apostles ever mention such a being...

As a matter of fact she is. Ever heard of the Davidic Kingdom. Jesus spiritually reestablished it. The King's court has offices and one of those offices is "the queen mother". That's a fact. These things forshadow the heavenly Kingdom in which:

Psalm 45
9: daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor; at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.

That's the Bible. That's a prophet. Remember the sons of thunder. How they wanted Jesus right. They could not have it because it was taken. By his MUM.

The Mary is not "above all saints". The real Mary is "blessed among women" not "blessed above women".

How are women blessed? By children right.
Children are a blessing from God, am I correct? Is each child an infinite blessing? No, of course not if they are finite human beings. Now was being Mother of the Christ, whom she fed and clothed and saw his kindess toward others every day and spoke to, an infinite blessing. How on earth you could say that any woman or man for that matter, was as blessed as Mary is beyond me. It's almost blasphemous in itself. She raised the God of the Universe in her home for crying out loud. Silly.

Mary is not the "hope of the elect".

She is, only because she interceeds for us, as the Queen Mother in the Old Testament interceeded for the people. She, thus obtains for us the grace her son won for us on the cross. Apart from him she is nothing. But with him she can do all things.

Jesus is the blessed hope of the church not Mary.

Jesus is the hope. In proper context Mary is the hope as well but not apart from Christ.

Notice that Jesus gave Himself for us. Only His sacrifice was sufficient to redeem us.

We are His people. Mary is not even mentioned.

You do not understand how his redemptoin works. By it he earned the grace for us to overcome life's trials. The grace has to be applied to our lives. That is where intercession comes in. He redeemed us but other's pray that the grace comes to us. Mary's prayers are very powerful.

In the above prayer Mary is called the "only refuge of sinners"...

This is blasphemy.

Says you. This does not mean that one who places their hope in Mary's intercession is not placing his hope in Christ. That is what you will never get as long as you have such an attitude. The mother points to the Son. Never do we say she is anything apart from him.

Mary is not a refuge at all. We don't need to run to "big mommy" in the sky.

You insulting Jesus mother. Mocking her. I would recommend you refrain from such things. It's not going to be good for your eternal prospects.

Why would we? God is our refuge and our strength.

Your not open to the answer so I shall not give it.

God bless

 

[Gary]

Who should we pray to?

RCC says: Pray to Mary. Ask her to pray for you.

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care" (paragraph #2677 in the CCC).

The Bible says: Do you remember Stephen when he was about to die? To whom did he surrender the hour of his death ? To Mary? or to Christ?

"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59). - KJV

So what is your verdict? Who will you call on in the hour of your death? Mary or our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I would like to hear what Thessalonian and OC have to say about that picture above. I am very distressed about that one. I am completely at a loss for words at Mary being shown with the holes in HER hands and still pregnant with Jesus.

 

[thessalonian]

I would like to hear what Thessalonian and OC have to say about that picture above. I am very distressed about that one. I am completely at a loss for words at Mary being shown with the holes in HER hands and still pregnant with Jesus.

Some artist painted a picture. So what. I have never seen this picture. I do think the purpose of it is that when Mary was before that cross she suffered intensly, spiritually, watching her son suffer. Are we not to take up our OWN crosses and follow him if we are to be his disciples.

Matt 16
24: Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25: For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


We in some sense go through our own crusifition. As Catholics we are to offer up our own prayers, works, joys, and sufferings daily and unite them with Jesus suffering on the Cross in which they have value, without which they are just human misery. We become living sacrifices by dying to ourselves and rising with him.

Romans 9
1: I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship

Paul himself says:

Gal 2
20: I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Would it be blasphemy to depict Paul's spiritual crusifition in a painting? I would hope not. But because it is Mary we are aghast. She stood at the foot of that cross and watched him suffer. When he was crusified she was too. Her's meant nothing without his though, just as our suffering is nothing without him.

Most certainly the artist does not believe that Mary was crusified physically. But we all go through a spiritual crusifixion. Our trials and sufferings are our carrying our own Cross. He says "take up YOUR cross and follow me". Where, to calvary, to our own dying to self and ressurection. I don't see a problem with depicting Mary's suffering in this manner.



Luke 1
34: and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against
35: (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed."

As for still being pregnant, Christ was the cause of her crusifition. I am sure it started when she was pregnant with him, while still not married to Joseph.

The scriptures themselves tell of the great suffering Mary would undergo because of the Christ child. Take up your cross LD and follow him. Crusifixtion awaits but resurrection follows crusifixtion.

Blessings

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I would like to hear what Thessalonian and OC have to say about that picture above. I am very distressed about that one. I am completely at a loss for words at Mary being shown with the holes in HER hands and still pregnant with Jesus.

As Thessalonian says, that is a picture. I can see that the intent of the artist is to create a mystical image, but in my estimation the result is confusion and grievous error.

Is Mary "Co-Redemptrix?" No....and yes. Christ alone Redeemed all in His finished work on the Cross- yet the working out of this redemption involves the saints co-laboring and serving toward the redemption of souls. Mary was and is a towering figure in that enterprise, as she brought forth and raised the Lord of All.

I'm not at all comfortable with the term "co-redemptrix" because I think it is inaccurate and confusing. I find the picture wrong and offensive. I'd like to know where it came from, apart from BB's favorite KJV only site.

Keep in mind that in each broad tradition, Catholic, Protestant, AND Orthodox, there are people on the fringes who occasionally drop off the fringe and into the abyss.

Here is an icon of Mary that I am very comfortable with. In this picture, Christ holds the infant Mary, or rather, her infant soul, which has just been born into the eternal Kingdom at the hour of her death. Part of the appeal of Mary is that she really was just like us, in need of a God and Savior. She serves as a classic example of the scripture that tells us that God rewards those who diligently seek Him.

 

[thessalonian]

I must agree with OC that I did at first not particularly care for the picture as I do think it is confusing and scandalous to those outside the faith as is quite obvious. I would not put it up. However, in context I do not think that it presents a false message with regard to Catholic Christian theology. It to me is not about worshipping Mary as our redeemer but like her, offering our sufferings up for Christ. Paul says "imitate me as I imitate Christ". He says to consider the faith of those who have attained the prize (who have died) and to imitate it. I see no reason not to imitate Mary's great faith in facing her cross in her son's crusifition.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

RCC says: Pray to Mary. Ask her to pray for you.

Well at least you said it right. On your death bed you won't ask others to pray for you? To pray means to ask and that is what we do. We ask Mary to pray for us.


[quote:cf880]The Bible says: Do you remember Stephen when he was about to die? To whom did he surrender the hour of his death ? To Mary? or to Christ?

"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59). - KJV

So what is your verdict? Who will you call on in the hour of your death? Mary or our Lord Jesus Christ?

[/quote:cf880]



False dichotomy once again. You said it yourself. We ask Mary to pray for us. Now if she were the end of our request we would be in the idolatry that you charge. But we are asking her to ask her son to have mercy on our souls. When you are in the later stages of your life you will not ask anyone to pray for you? If I am in a car accident and have the car sitting on top of me and ask someone who cannot help me to help me I will die. But if I ask that someone to get someone who can help me (all our prayers to Mary have Christ as the end, the actual aid) will I die. No, I shall live. By the way we do pray directly to Christ ourselves as well but it is quite biblical to ask others to interceed for us. You guys always start 1 Tim 2 at verse 5. You need to read v. 1-4 as well.

 

[Gary]

Where in the Bible do you see anyone PRAYING to departed souls?

Where in the Bible do you find prayers to Mary?