The word "Church" is not in scripture.

[JudaicChristian]

The word "Assembly and Congregation" are INTERPRETATED as Church. Now what do you think of that?

If you will take notice, the word Church is not used in the Old Testament. The word Ekklesia is used 114 times, and mostly as an INTERPRETATION for Church and a few times as Assembly or Congregation. The word Church is an INTERPRETATION were as Assembly or Congregation would be a TRANSLATION.

The ecclesia or ekklesia was the principal assembly of the democracy of ancient Athens during its Golden Age (480-404 BCE). It was a gathering place for politicians and voters. This is the word used in most English versions as a rendering of the New Testament's Greek word ekklesia. Ekklesia really means "a calling out", a meeting or a gathering. Ekklesia is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew qahal, which means an assembly or a congregation. Neither ekklesia nor qahal means a building.

Tyndale, in his translation, uniformly translated ekklesia as "congregation" and only used the word "'churches" to translate Acts 19:37 for heathen temples! Where then did the word "church", come from?
Ecclesiastical sources give the origin as kuriakon or kyriakon in Greek. However to accept this, one has to stretch your imagination in an attempt to see any resemblance. Also, because kuriakon means a building (the house of Kurios=Lords), and not a gathering or meeting of people, as the words ekklesia and qahal imply, therefore this explanation can only be regarded as distorted, even if it is true.

Our common dictionaries, however, are honest in revealing to us the true origin. They all trace the word back to its Old English or Anglo-Saxon root, namely circe. And what is the origin of circe? Any encyclopedia, or dictionary of mythology, will reveal who Circe was. She was the goddess daughter of Helios, the Sun deity! Again, another form of Sun worship, this time the daughter of the Sun deity had become mixed with the Christian Faith.
Some interesting facts emerge from the study of the word circe. The word is related to "circus", "circle", "circuit", "Circean", "circulate", and the various words starting with circum". The Latin pronunciation could have been "sirke" or "sirse". The Old English word circe may have been pronounced similarly to "kirke", or even "sirse".
However, Circe was in fact originally a Greek goddess where her name was written as: Kirke, and pronounced as such. The word "church" is known in Scotland as kirk, and in German as Kirche and in Netherlands as kerk. These words show their direct derivation from the Greek Kirke even better than the English "church". However, even the Old English circe for "church", reveals its origin.
Let us rather use the Scriptural "Assembly" or "Congregation", and renounce the word that is derived from Circe, the daughter of the Sun deity which is worshiped even today on the day of the Sun, Sunday!

This is what the point of this subject is: Many Christians place the importance of a "Church" as the only means of salvation, when in fact it is the believers themselves that are The Body of Christ.

Salvation is obtained by your keeping of God's precepts and Commandments in addition to the testamony of Yahshua. And that is what scripture says. That is The New Covenant.
The True Church is the "congregation" of believers.
A Chuch is a building for public gatherings of various sorts. Where ever the true believers assemble, that is the congregation.

And again like I have said before, the word church is an interpretation for the words Assembly and Congregation.

 

[Mike]

This is what the point of this subject is: Many Christians place the importance of a "Church" as the only means of salvation, when in fact it is the believers themselves that are The Body of Christ.

I think you're making a big leap in your opening statement here. You then state that the Church is the Body of Christ, and I believe most Christians would agree with that. I wonder how you came to your conclusion that "many" Christians believe that a church is the only means to salvation. You did use Church with a capital "C", so you could be referring to the RCC.

But this seems a departure from your overall OP, which for some reason rejects a church building to congregate in. So we have buildings that we gather in to assemble as believers, and the word "church" isn't in the Bible. The word "Bible" isn't in the Bible either. Whether believers assemble in a home, in a church or out in a field, what matters is the gathering, not the location or the name we give it. I get the feeling this is inspired by a maverick mentality that rejects anything that resembles a traditional congregation.

 

[Ed the Ned]

I agree with Mike on this one. The post seems to have no meaning other than to stir futile debate.

 

[Scotth1960]

The word "Assembly and Congregation" are INTERPRETATED as Church. Now what do you think of that?

If you will take notice, the word Church is not used in the Old Testament. The word Ekklesia is used 114 times, and mostly as an INTERPRETATION for Church and a few times as Assembly or Congregation. The word Church is an INTERPRETATION were as Assembly or Congregation would be a TRANSLATION.

The ecclesia or ekklesia was the principal assembly of the democracy of ancient Athens during its Golden Age (480-404 BCE). It was a gathering place for politicians and voters. This is the word used in most English versions as a rendering of the New Testament's Greek word ekklesia. Ekklesia really means "a calling out", a meeting or a gathering. Ekklesia is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew qahal, which means an assembly or a congregation. Neither ekklesia nor qahal means a building.

Tyndale, in his translation, uniformly translated ekklesia as "congregation" and only used the word "'churches" to translate Acts 19:37 for heathen temples! Where then did the word "church", come from?
Ecclesiastical sources give the origin as kuriakon or kyriakon in Greek. However to accept this, one has to stretch your imagination in an attempt to see any resemblance. Also, because kuriakon means a building (the house of Kurios=Lords), and not a gathering or meeting of people, as the words ekklesia and qahal imply, therefore this explanation can only be regarded as distorted, even if it is true.

Our common dictionaries, however, are honest in revealing to us the true origin. They all trace the word back to its Old English or Anglo-Saxon root, namely circe. And what is the origin of circe? Any encyclopedia, or dictionary of mythology, will reveal who Circe was. She was the goddess daughter of Helios, the Sun deity! Again, another form of Sun worship, this time the daughter of the Sun deity had become mixed with the Christian Faith.
Some interesting facts emerge from the study of the word circe. The word is related to "circus", "circle", "circuit", "Circean", "circulate", and the various words starting with circum". The Latin pronunciation could have been "sirke" or "sirse". The Old English word circe may have been pronounced similarly to "kirke", or even "sirse".
However, Circe was in fact originally a Greek goddess where her name was written as: Kirke, and pronounced as such. The word "church" is known in Scotland as kirk, and in German as Kirche and in Netherlands as kerk. These words show their direct derivation from the Greek Kirke even better than the English "church". However, even the Old English circe for "church", reveals its origin.
Let us rather use the Scriptural "Assembly" or "Congregation", and renounce the word that is derived from Circe, the daughter of the Sun deity which is worshiped even today on the day of the Sun, Sunday!

This is what the point of this subject is: Many Christians place the importance of a "Church" as the only means of salvation, when in fact it is the believers themselves that are The Body of Christ.

Salvation is obtained by your keeping of God's precepts and Commandments in addition to the testamony of Yahshua. And that is what scripture says. That is The New Covenant.
The True Church is the "congregation" of believers.
A Chuch is a building for public gatherings of various sorts. Where ever the true believers assemble, that is the congregation.

And again like I have said before, the word church is an interpretation for the words Assembly and Congregation.

Friends, I believe the word "church" is derived from the Greek word "Kurios" which means "Lord", and church means "the Lord's house". I'm not sure, is the word "kuriake"? In any case, your talk is much ado about nothing. Christ did found a church, and it is a correct translation in Matt. 16:18 and 1 Tim. 3:15. It does not come from the pagan sun deity, but from the Greek word for God, which is Kyrios (Kurios), LORD.
It is false to associate the word church with a pagan sun deity; that is a myth that has long ago been discredited. It is a case of guilt by association, as the day that Christ rose from the dead is the first day of the week, and the pagan Romans called that Sun day. Nothing to do with paganism, there was no paganism in the church. We use the name of the pagan days of the week, but who worships Thor or Odin or the other Norse gods the days of the week come from?
Take care.

 

[Elijah674]

Acts 7
[36] (And He brought them OUT) '.. after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
[37] This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
[38] This is he, that was in [the church] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
[39] To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Psalms 77
Thy way, O God, [IS IN THE SANCTUARY]..' [Call it whatever one wants, Church, House, Fold, Candlestick, Vineyard, Tanernacle, these are Words of the K.J. version (+ more!.. even the 'Table' for feeding!) of the Bible meaning the same PLACE that God wanted to meet with His people!

(And surely for Christ to be there, the ETERNAL CONDITIONS MUST BE MET! Acts 5:32)

And to teach that there was not to be just ONE FAITH to qualify & have these Virgin Doctrines is [NOT THE TRUTH] of the Everlasting Gospel of Rev. 14:6,
and Christ has [DOCUMENTED] that He started up His EXTENDED CHURCH & gave over ALL AUTHORITY to it!

[[YET, IT WAS STILL ONLY ON THE ETERNAL CONDITION of their OBEDIENCE TO ALL OF HIS WORD! Matt. 18:14-18.]] And if the Church Rev. 2:5's Candlestick was disobedient, it did not take long before the whole FOLD CANDLESTICK WOULD BE REMOVED. As was the [Documented case on Matt. 23:38 & the last sequence of Laodicea. Rev. 3:16 who became the synagogue of satan ibid. 9].
And we see FAITHFUL OBEDIENT Philadelphia replace her with the SAME VIRGIN DOCTRINES! Rev. 3:7 ones are on the SCENE in verse 10 finishing the Lords WORK! Rev. 12:17. Are they all organized yet? No, but they will be before Christ will return. And we know that when the cost of being a real Christian
is as Acts, (Acts 7-8-9)we will then find that UNITY for these sincere ones will be followed!

OK: This is where you are all at! Just because satan's rome has botched up the WORDS OF CHRIST in Matt. 16:16-19 with their foolishness of Christ being inside of all of their doctrinal garbage, which is almost daily printed & in world broadcast News as a worldwide church, still does not do away with the truth of Christs Words!

rome never was a Christian church to begin with, where Christ COULD BE IN (Rom. 8:1) Unless you believe satan over Christ's WORDS!

The Eternal Gospel + Heb. 13:20 ETERNAL COVENANT has this TRUTH...[["NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU [[ANY MORE EXCEPT YOU DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU.]]! FACT!!

And you remember King Saul? The Lord wouLD NOT EVEN HEAR HIS PRAYERS! And Isa. 59:1-2 tels you that the the church of rome has never even been considered anything but a false counterfiet of satan! Rev. 17:1-5 is the today's LAST DOCUMENTATION.

And with this being true, still, rome has some sincere Christian's living up to the best of their knowledge that they have been shown by the Holy Spirit. And when they are convicted of more truth they will do as has been done all through the ages of rome's blasphemy as a false church, and follow the Rev. 18:4 DEPARTURE of the filth!

But, that still does not CHANGE THE TRUTH! Eph. 4:5! And Saul (Paul) was told by Christ [WHAT HE MUST DO] and he was SENT TO THE CHURCH for [both healing + Baptism].

And the only ones seen saved are this WHOLE (but very small) CANDELESTICK of Philadelphia of Rev. 3. Note more of their identification in Rev. 12:17!

When folks accept Christ, these will do as He REQUIRED in His complete Word or they will just once again become has/beens. (LOST AND BACK UNDER BONDAGE!)

So in this sense, the word of God does indeed, never consider the Mother of harlots a 'C'hristian church in the first place! And the thread does have some merit!

---Elijah

 

[JudaicChristian]

Anyone ever give any thought to Sun halos associated with religious figures and buildings? Christ resurrection was not on Sunday.

 

[craigmn3]

The book of Revelation was written to the 7 churches

 

[Scotth1960]

Anyone ever give any thought to Sun halos

associated with religious figures and buildings? Christ resurrection was not on


Sunday.

Christ's resurrection was on a Sunday. In the book of Acts, the Christian

believers met on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. We need to

avoid Judaizing the Gospel. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision

profiteth anything. And ...The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, and the

new day of worship fulfills the OT prophecies of resurrection, of the

resurrection of the Messiah (cf. Isa. 53:11 NIV, LXX, HCSB, etc.).

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Vic C.]

Friends, I believe the word "church" is derived from the Greek word "Kurios" which means "Lord", and church means "the Lord's house". I'm not sure, is the word "kuriake"? In any case, your talk is much ado about nothing. Christ did found a church, and it is a correct translation in Matt. 16:18 and 1 Tim. 3:15. It does not come from the pagan sun deity, but from the Greek word for God, which is Kyrios (Kurios), LORD.
It is false to associate the word church with a pagan sun deity; that is a myth that has long ago been discredited. It is a case of guilt by association, as the day that Christ rose from the dead is the first day of the week, and the pagan Romans called that Sun day. Nothing to do with paganism, there was no paganism in the church. We use the name of the pagan days of the week, but who worships Thor or Odin or the other Norse gods the days of the week come from?
Take care.

Scott is sort of correct. "Church" does mean whet he posted, but... since the Bible (Paul) states that we believers are the temple of God, this house of the Lord is us!

Anyway, I usually prefer to use the word ekklesia, it's more in line with scripture and I like the way it sounds.



Scott, I do disagree with you on a Sunday resurrection. All scripture indicates about the timing is, He was resurrected somewhere right after sunset of day 7 and sunrise of day 1. Their days do not coincide with ours. Taking Scripture as literally as possible and taking other Messianic prophecies into account and also, the proper understanding of what it means to be in the heart of the earth for three nights and three days, leads me to believe He was resurrected shortly after the end of the weekly Sabbath.

That would still be their day one, but not ours.

 

[Elijah674]

Scott is sort of correct. "Church" does mean whet he posted, but... since the Bible (Paul) states that we believers are the temple of God, this house of the Lord is us!

Anyway, I usually prefer to use the word ekklesia, it's more in line with scripture and I like the way it sounds.



Scott, I do disagree with you on a Sunday resurrection. All scripture indicates about the timing is, He was resurrected somewhere right after sunset of day 7 and sunrise of day 1. Their days do not coincide with ours. Taking Scripture as literally as possible and taking other Messianic prophecies into account and also, the proper understanding of what it means to be in the heart of the earth for three nights and three days, leads me to believe He was resurrected shortly after the end of the weekly Sabbath.

That would still be their day one, but not ours.

Give us your first day understanding as to your 'time' on your thinking, as seen in a 24 hour day for when the RESURECTION came about? (if you care to?)
Using the Gen. 1 'morning & evening being a day', from sunset to sunset.

And Sunday??? John 20:1 say's that it was yet DARK & He was already gone! So most likely the one posting meant that it was not a Sunday Morning resurrection as we of today understand it?

And 'i' can agree with that!;) What would we do after having the spices for annointing all ready prepared on the preparation day & then Honoring Christ's 7th Day Sabbath which ended at the 'sunset??? Take a guess to the time from just that? And now just after the sun/set the 7th day, they could now go to the tomb!

--Elijah

 

[handy]

I'm not really going to join in the thread...at least I don't think I am...but I did read through this and just want to throw this in:

There are two ways at looking at days:

The Hebrew way, which is from sunset to sunset. In which case, the first day of the week actually starts after sundown on the Sabbath day.

Then our way, which is from 12:00am to 11:59pm. In which case the first day of the week starts one second after 11:59:59pm.

Both ways, the day of the week starts when it's dark.

 

[Pard]

I'm confused. What's the big deal if "church" never appears in the Bible?

I imagine there are many, many words that don't appear in the Bible. So what's the big deal?:

 

[Elijah674]

I'm not really going to join in the thread...at least I don't think I am...but I did read through this and just want to throw this in:

There are two ways at looking at days:

The Hebrew way, which is from sunset to sunset. In which case, the first day of the week actually starts after sundown on the Sabbath day.

Then our way, which is from 12:00am to 11:59pm. In which case the first day of the week starts one second after 11:59:59pm.

Both ways, the day of the week starts when it's dark.

I think we see Gen 1 with a 24 hour evening & morning starting point, even befor Adam was created? And the Hebrew way??;) Gen. 10:32 gives some more light on that even, the next verse of Gen. 11:1 states that until the Tower of Babel that .. 'And the WHOLE EARTH WAS OF ONE LANGUAGE, AND ONE SPEECH.' And my thinking is that the whole UNIVERSE + the 'tongues of angeles' were included.

--Elijah

 

[handy]

I'm confused. What's the big deal if "church" never appears in the Bible?

I imagine there are many, many words that don't appear in the Bible. So what's the big deal?:

I'm with you, Pard...as a matter of fact the only thing I see in this thread that is of substance (but note that I jumped in with my two cents worth anyway!) and worthy of really thrashing out is this from the OP:

Salvation is obtained by your keeping of God's precepts and Commandments in addition to the testamony of Yahshua.

Nope, salvation is, and always has been obtained one way and one way only, via faith, and that not of ourselves, but it is a gift of Gods.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

If the word church is not in scripture, then we must identify what is and how to properly differentiate between what is in scripture and what is not. Here's my attempt: http://www.christianforums.net/f17/church-vs-congregation-they-same-do-they-differ-35508/

 

[Hitch]

If the word church is not in scripture, then we must identify what is and how to properly differentiate between what is in scripture and what is not. Here's my attempt: http://www.christianforums.net/f17/church-vs-congregation-they-same-do-they-differ-35508/

Congregation has way more letters

 

[Pard]

Congregation has way more letters

+1

Calling a lemon a "telephone" doesn't change what it is. In the English language we have many, many words that mean the exact same thing.

The word "church" isn't in the Bible because it is actually rather hard to translate things into English, due to our huge volume of words which all mean the same thing.

It's like translating the English word "snow" into Inuit. The Inuit language has 97 words for snow, so which word do you use? :

That's probably why the word "church" never is used in translation. That and "church" is (if I recall correctly) a word that was created specifically to mean a Christian gathering... It's hard to use a word that wasn't even created until after the translations took place.

 

[Elijah674]

I'm with you, Pard...as a matter of fact the only thing I see in this thread that is of substance (but note that I jumped in with my two cents worth anyway!) and worthy of really thrashing out is this from the OP:

Salvation is obtained by your keeping of God's precepts and Commandments in addition to the testamony of Yahshua.

Nope, salvation is, and always has been obtained one way and one way only, via faith, and that not of ourselves, but it is a gift of Gods.

Also True is that Salvation is CONDITIONAL on Obedience to the Word of God, huh!
In fact Christ DOCUMENTED that one must be Born Again! And the Holy Spirits INSPIRED WORDS ARE.. THAT HE IS GIVEN TO THEM OF GOD TO THEM WHO OBEY HIM. Acts 5:32

So any 'CHURCH' (that is not in scripture?) that thinks that there is another way to believe, surely has a flaw. Isa. 8:20 + 1 John 2:4

And faith?? James 2:19-20 + the ones of John 12:42-43 finds many believed on Him! (and verse 42-43 finds what they LOVED more than Christ, huh!

--Elijah

 

[JudaicChristian]

Also True is that Salvation is CONDITIONAL on Obedience to the Word of God, huh!
In fact Christ DOCUMENTED that one must be Born Again! And the Holy Spirits INSPIRED WORDS ARE.. THAT HE IS GIVEN TO THEM OF GOD TO THEM WHO OBEY HIM. Acts 5:32

So any 'CHURCH' (that is not in scripture?) that thinks that there is another way to believe, surely has a flaw. Isa. 8:20 + 1 John 2:4

And faith?? James 2:19-20 + the ones of John 12:42-43 finds many believed on Him! (and verse 42-43 finds what they LOVED more than Christ, huh!

--Elijah

Obviously if you hold to the testamony of Yahshua you have faith. Yahshua said, "if you love me keep my Father's commandments."

 

[JudaicChristian]

Anyone ever give any thought to Sun halos associated with religious figures and buildings? Christ resurrection was not on Sunday.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Halos: Pagan Sun halos - Google Search