There will be NO Secret Rapture!

[reba]

OPPS Fixed that with my magic

 

[Stormcrow]

Actually it was seven, but who's counting?

In reverence to the last couple of posts, I'd just like to point out that before Jesus spoke, there was Daniel:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Daniel 12:1-2)

This is an interesting passage, because beginning with the conjuction "and" and preposition "at" means Daniel is referring to some event mentioned in a previous chapter, yet chapter 11 clearly isn't it!

This has led many scholars to believe that the chapters in the book of Daniel are out of order. In my reading of this passage, the preceding chapter to which chapter 12, v. 1 refers is here:


And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel 9:27 (ESV)

Now read 12:1-2 and see if it doesn't make more sense:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Daniel 12:1-2)

Chapter 11 refers to the war between Egypt and Syria and the antics of the Ptolomies and Seleucids. This is not a reference to "the end." But the latter verses of chapter 9 clearly refer to "the end of the age" when Messiah would come describing Himself as the resurrection to which Daniel refers in chapter 12.

In other words, the last few verses in Daniel, chapter 9 - the 490 remaining years of Israel as a nation and the first coming of Messiah - fit much better with Daniel 12, as both are prophesying of the "end times."

The King James Version - in this case - actually describes 9:27 with much better language (then keep reading through 12:1):

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1 (KJV)

Christ opened the seals of judgment (Revelation 5) because of the abominations of Jerusalem: the civil war, murder, and persecution of the apostles and believers, and Christ's language in Matthew 23 and 24 mirrors that of Daniel 9 & 12:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matthew 23:37-38 (KJV)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21 (KJV)


Anyone else see the connection here?

 

[Denique Coelum]

I'll leave you good ladies and gentleman to slug it out here. I'd love to continue in the discussion, but I really have a lot on my plate at the moment with my studies!

One point before I go though... play nicely, okay? I know I'm the chief of sinners here, but... no sarcasm, please. Even if you don't agree with what someone's saying, try to moderate your tone and be respectful of them, even if you don't agree with the doctrine they're supporting.

I just think it makes for a nicer atmosphere if we aren't sarky and derisive. Right! Enough of pretending I'm a moderator (even though it gives me a pleasing illusion of power, muhahahaha! ), I'm offski!

Cheery-bye!

 

[jasoncran]

pre tribbers cant do that that would ruin their pet theory of that exist post hasteus when there souls to be won.

cant be out there willing to die and teach that trib theory honesty

ok rant over.

 

[Vic C.]

pre tribbers cant do that that would ruin their pet theory of that exist post hasteus when there souls to be won.

cant be out there willing to die and teach that trib theory honesty

ok rant over.

... and that coming from a former pre-tribber. :waving

Hey Reba, I got your original response in my email notification. I'll discuss covenant theology if you want.

 

[reba]

I am busted !

Spending to much time working in the kitchen....We'll start on the 'tin' ceiling tomorrow. That is my excuse and i'm sticking to it

Christ in me the hope of glory.

The escape from His earth is not the hope of glory

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

I'm compeltly against the Prib-Trib view. Because both Matthew 24 and 2nd Thesselonina 2 clearly define the Abomination of Deoslation as ebing before the Harpatzo.

But I'm open to a Mid-Trib Scenario, that envisions the Rapture possibly being depicted in Revelation 14.

 

[Hitch]

I'm compeltly against the Prib-Trib view. Because both Matthew 24 and 2nd Thesselonina 2 clearly define the Abomination of Deoslation as ebing before the Harpatzo.

But I'm open to a Mid-Trib Scenario, that envisions the Rapture possibly being depicted in Revelation 14.

How do you allow for continued history following the resurrection ?

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

The Ressurection doesn't all Happen at once, it began with Yeshua, some where raised son after him, the Church will be raised a the Harpatzo, any Saved left will be raised when the Millennium begins. And the Unsaved are raised after the Millennium.

 

[John 8:32]

The Ressurection doesn't all Happen at once, it began with Yeshua, some where raised son after him, the Church will be raised a the Harpatzo, any Saved left will be raised when the Millennium begins. And the Unsaved are raised after the Millennium.

I agree with most of this, the part I disagree with is that no one has been resurrected yet except Christ. He will resurrect His at His coming...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Hitch]

The Ressurection doesn't all Happen at once, it began with Yeshua, some where raised son after him, the Church will be raised a the Harpatzo, any Saved left will be raised when the Millennium begins. And the Unsaved are raised after the Millennium.

Another demonstration of why futurists do not quote Christ in support;

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



I wont even ask you why 'Millennial saints' are raised with the unsaved.

 

[reba]

The Ressurection doesn't all Happen at once, it began with Yeshua, some where raised son after him, the Church will be raised a the Harpatzo, any Saved left will be raised when the Millennium begins. And the Unsaved are raised after the Millennium.

The Words of Jesus from the book of John...

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
The Words of Jesus put the resurrection on/in the last day not once but 5 times in the verses listed.

Once again the Words of Jesus...
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

As i read His words i see nothing to indicate a thousand year gap in the resurrection.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

The term "The Last Day" is used in general of the entire End Time scenario, from before the Start of the Tribulation until the end of the Millennium.

The statement is not so Absolute, as Matthew clearly states many Rose after his Resurrection.

 

[reba]

What is your scriptural back up in regards to last day meaning last days
I see no generalities in the Words of Christ He could well have said last days He did not, big difference.

 

[Elijah674]

Another demonstration of why futurists do not quote Christ in support;

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



I wont even ask you why 'Millennial saints' are raised with the unsaved.

Where does it even suggest that these both are resurected at the same time there in that verse?? Rev. has it the FIRST Resurection (who are blessed and holy) & the Second Resurrection at the end of the 1000 years to DIE THE [SECOND DEATH].

-Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

The Ressurection doesn't all Happen at once, it began with Yeshua, some where raised son after him, the Church will be raised a the Harpatzo, any Saved left will be raised when the Millennium begins. And the Unsaved are raised after the Millennium.

Hi!
That is what Rev. 20:4-6 says if read without un/inspired number's + put there by man.

Rev. 20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(and surely one had read that these ones would do what during the 'EXECUTIONAL' Judgement of the wicked...1 Cor. 6:2-3 'judge the world')


[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

--Elijah

 

[Hitch]

The term "The Last Day" is used in general of the entire End Time scenario, from before the Start of the Tribulation until the end of the Millennium.

The statement is not so Absolute, as Matthew clearly states many Rose after his Resurrection.

So what Jesus describes as an 'hour' you claim is really more than 1,000 years,correct?

 

[John 8:32]

So what Jesus describes as an 'hour' you claim is really more than 1,000 years,correct?

Are you claiming it is truly 60 minutes?

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

The First Resurrection is a category, not a chronological sequence.

Doctrine must be build on the entirety of Scripture, not your apparent assumptions off first Glances in a casual reading. Your Denying the clear statement of Matthew by insisting the Entire Resurrection isn't until the 2nd Coming.

27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[reba]

Mit, Not sure i understand your post...
Personally i see the Cross (ministry death resurrection etc) as a time unto its self. The center of all the history of mankind not as in dates but but the center of mankinds whole existence the center of our reason for being created...

The resurrections of those at the time of His death are separate unto themselves, as the resurrection of Lazarus.

We who were dead in sin have been quickened this is also a resurrection.

Then we have the words of Christ Himself. He is very plain and direct He says simply the last day. He did not correct Martha when she said last day.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

He made the days He made 'time' for us HE did not say last days