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They like Jesus but not the Church

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Jeff Mills

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Dan Kimball's new book, They Like Jesus But Not the Church should really be called They Like (Another) Jesus But Not the Church, the Bible, Morality, or the Truth. Kimball interviews several young people (one is a lesbian) who tell him they "like and respect Jesus" but they don't want anything to do with going to church or with those Christians who take the Bible literally. Kimball says these are "exciting times" we live in "when Jesus is becoming more and more respected in our culture by non-churchgoing people" (p. 12). He says we should "be out listening to what non-Christians, especially those in their late teens to thirties, are saying and thinking about the church and Christianity" (p. 12).

According to Kimball, it is vitally important that we as Christians be accepted by non-Christians and not thought of as abnormal or strange. But in order to do that, he says we must change the way we live and behave. He says things like Christian bumper stickers (p. 40) and Christian words like "fellowship," (p. 41) are "corny" and might offend a non-believer or seeker. Kimball insists (p. 19) that "those who are rejecting faith in Jesus" do so because of their views of Christians and the church. But he makes it clear throughout the book that these distorted views are not the fault of the unbeliever but are the fault of Christians, but not all Christians, just those fundamentalist ones who take the Bible literally, believe that homosexuality is a sin, and think certain things are wrong and harmful to society ... and actually speak up about these things.

Incidentally, Kimball devotes an entire chapter to homosexuality, "The Church is Homophobic." Now his chapter titles are supposed to be what these skeptical, disheartened emerging generation persons see in the church. If we would not be homophobic, they would like us much better. Kimball explains:

Quite honestly, and some people might get mad at me for saying this, I sometimes wish this weren't a sin issue [homosexuality], because I have met gay people who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met. As I talk to them and hear their stories and get to know them, I come to understand that their sexual orientation isn't something they can just turn off. Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits. (p. 138)
This is alarming that Kimball is saying this. Substitute the sin for pedophilia and hear how it sounds: "I sometimes wish molesting children wasn't a sin issue, because I have met pedophiles who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met." Kimball says (p. 110) we need to focus more on what we stand for rather than what we are against. If I had his views I wouldn't want anyone focusing on criticisms against them either.

While the book is a theological disaster, many new believers probably won't know that. That is to be expected. That is why we have pastors and leaders. But this presents some serious concern. One of the most respected leaders in Christendom has his endorsement in the book. Josh McDowell tells readers "it would be foolish" to not carefully study Kimball's book. Gregory Koukl of Stand to Reason (an apologetics ministry) also endorses the book:
With insight, gentleness, and an unswerving commitment to the wisdom of the past, Dan Kimball shows us what we don't want to see but must see if we care about the Great Commission in the twenty-first century.
McDowell's and Koukl's endorsements are nestled between staunch emerging church/New Thought promoters: Leonard Sweet, Tony Jones, Mark Oestreicher (Youth Specialties) and several others. One example of Kimball's poor biblical theology is in his chapter titled: "The Church Arrogantly Claims All Other Religions are Wrong."
 
Thanks for posting that info Jeff.
When the false Christ appears, many, many will follow him because of their lack of being born and not having the Holy Spirit of God. Many are not believers, but believe that they are. They have never been born again, nor do they know what being born again is. It is very important to follow the trends and current events to be able to teach against false teachings and false christs.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Why did you read the book?

Hi my friend. As a minister I need to prepare myself to warn the flock from these false teachers, hence I try to read this type of book to be certain I know what I am talking about should anyone ask me a question on it. Blessings. Jeff
 
Solo said:
Thanks for posting that info Jeff.
When the false Christ appears, many, many will follow him because of their lack of being born and not having the Holy Spirit of God. Many are not believers, but believe that they are. They have never been born again, nor do they know what being born again is. It is very important to follow the trends and current events to be able to teach against false teachings and false christs.

Hi Solo. It does concern me so much that many Christians are being led astray. I often think of where the Lord speaks about separating the sheep and the goats. In England one can often see them grazing on the hillsides, but it is hard to tell the difference between them! I believe that is the case also in the church of today. We need the baptism of the Holy Spriit to have discernment.
 
Jeff Mills said:
Dan Kimball's new book, They Like Jesus But Not the Church should really be called They Like (Another) Jesus But Not the Church, the Bible, Morality, or the Truth. Kimball interviews several young people (one is a lesbian) who tell him they "like and respect Jesus" but they don't want anything to do with going to church or with those Christians who take the Bible literally. Kimball says these are "exciting times" we live in "when Jesus is becoming more and more respected in our culture by non-churchgoing people" (p. 12). He says we should "be out listening to what non-Christians, especially those in their late teens to thirties, are saying and thinking about the church and Christianity" (p. 12).


I did not read the book - however, I would like to respond to your critique if I may. We are called to live out the Christian faith - our actions speak a lot louder than our words. While we might try to claim to have 'right doctrine' or 'sound doctrine' - our actions must match our faith. A true test of the Christian faith is how our faith is manifested in our lives. Listening to what non-christians says about us, can provide an insight into how our faith is being lived out. What we need to discern is if their critique is an honest assestment or not.

According to Kimball, it is vitally important that we as Christians be accepted by non-Christians and not thought of as abnormal or strange. But in order to do that, he says we must change the way we live and behave. He says things like Christian bumper stickers (p. 40) and Christian words like "fellowship," (p. 41) are "corny" and might offend a non-believer or seeker. Kimball insists (p. 19) that "those who are rejecting faith in Jesus" do so because of their views of Christians and the church. But he makes it clear throughout the book that these distorted views are not the fault of the unbeliever but are the fault of Christians, but not all Christians, just those fundamentalist ones who take the Bible literally, believe that homosexuality is a sin, and think certain things are wrong and harmful to society ... and actually speak up about these things.

Let's be honest with ourselves. Christian bumperstickers are corny, and in most churches the idead of fellowship is 'coffee and snacks' after the worship service. Fellowship encompases more than having a cup of coffee in the 'fellowship hall'. The danger of fundamentalism is that it can lead to a legalistic or pharisee-itical approach to Christianity. It is good to speak up against those things that are harmful to society - but it is important that in all things that love is our guide.

For example: while I speak out against abortion, I would not join must 'pro-life' groups or give money to politicians who claim to be 'pro-life'. I believe more can be done to stop abortions, if we as Christians would 'adopt' single mothers, help to provide day care or nursery school, help to offset the costs of health-insurance, help to provide diapers, clothes, etc. Think of all the money that has been wasted on politicians, ad campaigns, and the like. Now imagine all that money, time, and effort being spent helping pregnant women. Rather than spending our time fighting planned parenthood - what if all that money was spent building a healthy alternative to it! Cliniques that offer not only free pregnancy tests, but health care at reduced costs - day care, etc. What a new-mother needs to here is that she has support - not condemnation.

Incidentally, Kimball devotes an entire chapter to homosexuality, "The Church is Homophobic." Now his chapter titles are supposed to be what these skeptical, disheartened emerging generation persons see in the church. If we would not be homophobic, they would like us much better. Kimball explains:

Quite honestly, and some people might get mad at me for saying this, I sometimes wish this weren't a sin issue [homosexuality], because I have met gay people who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met. As I talk to them and hear their stories and get to know them, I come to understand that their sexual orientation isn't something they can just turn off. Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits. (p. 138)
This is alarming that Kimball is saying this. Substitute the sin for pedophilia and hear how it sounds: "I sometimes wish molesting children wasn't a sin issue, because I have met pedophiles who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met." Kimball says (p. 110) we need to focus more on what we stand for rather than what we are against. If I had his views I wouldn't want anyone focusing on criticisms against them either.

First, it appears that Kimball recognizes that the act of homosexuality is a sin. If we truly believe that we can "hate the sin, but not the sinner" - then we need to remember that it is the act of homosexuality that is the sin, not the homosexual. For example, I do not like the term 'illegal alien' not because of being PC - but rather that people cannot be and are not 'illegal' - merely the acts that they commit are illegal. And I agree with Kimball in that homosexuals are born that way. We are ALL born into a sinful nature. Look at the example of Haggard - rather than rely on the transforming power of Jesus Christ - he thought using 'legalism' would protect him against his sinful nature that manifested intself with homsexual acts.

Jesus was able to attract some of the 'worst' sinners, some of the most 'unclean' of his time - and he was persecuted for it by those who claimed to hold to religious 'fundamentalism' or 'orthodoxy' - however in their attempt to protect the faith through legalism and doctrine - they actually abused the faith.

I am not suggesting to throw away true 'orthodoxy' (right belief) - but rather that both orthodoxy and orthopraxis must be in line together.


While the book is a theological disaster, many new believers probably won't know that. That is to be expected. That is why we have pastors and leaders. But this presents some serious concern. One of the most respected leaders in Christendom has his endorsement in the book. Josh McDowell tells readers "it would be foolish" to not carefully study Kimball's book. Gregory Koukl of Stand to Reason (an apologetics ministry) also endorses the book:
With insight, gentleness, and an unswerving commitment to the wisdom of the past, Dan Kimball shows us what we don't want to see but must see if we care about the Great Commission in the twenty-first century.
McDowell's and Koukl's endorsements are nestled between staunch emerging church/New Thought promoters: Leonard Sweet, Tony Jones, Mark Oestreicher (Youth Specialties) and several others. One example of Kimball's poor biblical theology is in his chapter titled: "The Church Arrogantly Claims All Other Religions are Wrong."

Where is the theological disaster? Does he deny the Lordship of Jesus Christ? Does he deny the One and Only True God? The Inspiration of the Word? Does he deny the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ - and that salvation is found in Him?

If I may ask, what is position in the chapter titled "The Church Arrogantly Claims All Other Religions are Wrong."? Is he suggesting that other religions are not wrong? Or is the problem with "Arrogance"?
 
Alone voice I hear what you are saying but we are not to come down to the levels of a sinner. We are not of this world, even though we live in it. Jesus, John the Baptist were not slow to tell people to repent of their sins. Yes, of course we can tell them in love, but sometimes telling a person is love will hurt them. The Cross is an offence to the children of the devil.

Of course non-Christians are thought as being arrogant because we claim we have the truth, which we do. Of course, our actions must match our faith! Most times the critique of non-Christians to us is negative. An example. My parents think it is wrong for me to "shove religion down people's throats." Well, I don't do that anyway, but share the Gospel at every single opportunity, no matter where I am. Yes, it will make people uncomfortable. Why? because they are sinners! By the way I know of people saved by Christian bumper stickers. We need to use every method we can, even whilst driving. There are 156,000 people that die every day, and if ONE is saved by a bumper sticker then it has done its job, no matter how offending it is to others.

Money spent on clinics for free pregnancy tests? Better still lets all get out there and warn them of the dangers of sex before marriage. I would call that support. Yes, there will be some mothers (perhaps many) that need help, but lets start with the Gospel.


<<<<<QUOTEQuite honestly, and some people might get mad at me for saying this, I sometimes wish this weren't a sin issue [homosexuality], because I have met gay people who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met. As I talk to them and hear their stories and get to know them, I come to understand that their sexual orientation isn't something they can just turn off. Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits. (p. 138)
This is alarming that Kimball is saying this. Substitute the sin for pedophilia and hear how it sounds: "I sometimes wish molesting children wasn't a sin issue, because I have met pedophiles who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met." Kimball says (p. 110) we need to focus more on what we stand for rather than what we are against. If I had his views I wouldn't want anyone focusing on criticisms against them either.[/quote]
>>>>>End of Quote

Now you are dreaming! How could you possibly wish something that God has called an abomination? Hey, how about saying, "I wish Hindus and Buddists were saved with thir own religion" No, the reality id ONLY Jesus saved. Homosexuality IS something people choose or else God would not have called it an abomination! As for paedophiles, I cannot believe you could say that! I do hope you shared Jesus very strongly with these people you met!

Tell me with your views, are you a Spirit-filled Born-again Christian? Because I am concerned for you. No offence meant. Peace!
 
Jeff Mills said:
Alone voice I hear what you are saying but we are not to come down to the levels of a sinner. We are not of this world, even though we live in it. Jesus, John the Baptist were not slow to tell people to repent of their sins. Yes, of course we can tell them in love, but sometimes telling a person is love will hurt them. The Cross is an offence to the children of the devil.


And I never suggested that we are to come down to the level of a 'sinner' - However, unless you have stopped sinning - are we not all sinners? It is through the power of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that we are to be transformed while living in this world. We are to be a light on the hill, a guide to Jesus Christ - to often our non-verbal communication and our actions contradict our verbal communication of the Cross.

Money spent on clinics for free pregnancy tests? Better still lets all get out there and warn them of the dangers of sex before marriage. I would call that support. Yes, there will be some mothers (perhaps many) that need help, but lets start with the Gospel.


I believe you misunderstood, I said that "Christian" pregnancy centers should do MORE than just offer free tests. As a Christian, I understand the design that God had for sex within the context of marriage. However, I would suggest that this is a Christian value. It is not realistic to believe that a non-Christian should live a life based on Christian values when they do not know the author of those values.

You are correct, let's start with the Gospel - by living out the Gospel message, we put our faith into action.


<<<<<QUOTEQuite honestly, and some people might get mad at me for saying this, I sometimes wish this weren't a sin issue [homosexuality], because I have met gay people who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met. As I talk to them and hear their stories and get to know them, I come to understand that their sexual orientation isn't something they can just turn off. Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits. (p. 138)
This is alarming that Kimball is saying this. Substitute the sin for pedophilia and hear how it sounds: "I sometimes wish molesting children wasn't a sin issue, because I have met pedophiles who are the most kind, loving, solid, and supportive people I have ever met." Kimball says (p. 110) we need to focus more on what we stand for rather than what we are against. If I had his views I wouldn't want anyone focusing on criticisms against them either.
>>>>>End of Quote

Now you are dreaming! How could you possibly wish something that God has called an abomination? Hey, how about saying, "I wish Hindus and Buddists were saved with thir own religion" No, the reality id ONLY Jesus saved. Homosexuality IS something people choose or else God would not have called it an abomination! As for paedophiles, I cannot believe you could say that! I do hope you shared Jesus very strongly with these people you met!

Here you merely quoted Kimball again, and not my words. What exactly am I 'dreaming' about? I have not 'wished' for anything that God has called an abomination.

Here is what I said: "First, it appears that Kimball recognizes that the act of homosexuality is a sin. If we truly believe that we can "hate the sin, but not the sinner" - then we need to remember that it is the act of homosexuality that is the sin, not the homosexual. For example, I do not like the term 'illegal alien' not because of being PC - but rather that people cannot be and are not 'illegal' - merely the acts that they commit are illegal. And I agree with Kimball in that homosexuals are born that way. We are ALL born into a sinful nature. Look at the example of Haggard - rather than rely on the transforming power of Jesus Christ - he thought using 'legalism' would protect him against his sinful nature that manifested intself with homsexual acts.

Jesus was able to attract some of the 'worst' sinners, some of the most 'unclean' of his time - and he was persecuted for it by those who claimed to hold to religious 'fundamentalism' or 'orthodoxy' - however in their attempt to protect the faith through legalism and doctrine - they actually abused the faith.

I am not suggesting to throw away true 'orthodoxy' (right belief) - but rather that both orthodoxy and orthopraxis must be in line together. "

Tell me with your views, are you a Spirit-filled Born-again Christian? Because I am concerned for you. No offence meant. Peace![/color]

What exaclty of my views are you concerned about? There is no need to say 'no offence meant' if your words are not offensive.

There is an old story within Mennonite circles (for the purpose of reference, I am a mennonite): There was a Mennonite farmer who was encountered by a traveling preacher. When the preacher asked him if he was saved, the farmer responded: "I could tell you anything you want to hear. If you really want to know if I am a Christian, you will need to ask my neighbors."
 
aLoneVoice said:
What exaclty of my views are you concerned about? There is no need to say 'no offence meant' if your words are not offensive.

I aologise for some misunderstanding in my reply to you.

There is an old story within Mennonite circles (for the purpose of reference, I am a mennonite): There was a Mennonite farmer who was encountered by a traveling preacher. When the preacher asked him if he was saved, the farmer responded: "I could tell you anything you want to hear. If you really want to know if I am a Christian, you will need to ask my neighbors."

Yes, a nice story, but it would have been better to answer directly and say yes or no. One knows when one is born-again. For example I am led by the Spirit is all my decison making, all the miracles in our ministry (by the grace and power of God), and led by the Father to those who are sinners so I can pray for them and share the Gospel with them. Many blessings, Jeff
 
Jeff Mills said:
Yes, a nice story, but it would have been better to answer directly and say yes or no. One knows when one is born-again. For example I am led by the Spirit is all my decison making, all the miracles in our ministry (by the grace and power of God), and led by the Father to those who are sinners so I can pray for them and share the Gospel with them. Many blessings, Jeff

Very well.. The idea behind the story is that - a person can say anything, you and me - however, our actions prove out our words.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Very well.. The idea behind the story is that - a person can say anything, you and me - however, our actions prove out our words.

I agree with you here. We are known by our fruits!
 
Hi Jeff

Have you read - Love Jesus Hate Church by Steve McCranie?

I started a thread on this book a while back but seems no-one has read it.
 
mutzrein said:
Hi Jeff

Have you read - Love Jesus Hate Church by Steve McCranie?

I started a thread on this book a while back but seems no-one has read it.

Hi mutz, No I have not read it. Please led me to the thread! Blessings, Jeff
 
Jeff Mills said:
Hi mutz, No I have not read it. Please led me to the thread! Blessings, Jeff

Hi Jeff

It is in this same forum down towards the bottom of the page. Actually there is not much there since I really just wanted to get feedback from any others who had read it - and since there were none . . . :sad

But since that time I googled the book and discovered it can actually be downloaded direct from the author's web site. Check it out.
 
Jeff Mills said:
Hi mutz, No I have not read it. Please led me to the thread! Blessings, Jeff

Hi Jeff

It is in this same forum down towards the bottom of the page. Actually there is not much there since I really just wanted to get feedback from any others who had read it - and since there were none . . . :sad

But since that time I googled the book and discovered it can actually be downloaded direct from the author's web site. Check it out.
 

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