This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world...

[Hopeful]

Assuming this isn't sarcasm (which it sounds like): Most non-Christians don't give a care about whether the Great Commission was fulfilled or not. (Only one I know of who cares about such things would be Dr. Robert Price.) Also my position is hardly non-Christian uniquely; it is preterist, and Dorothy Mae holds to it.

As your user name "spot" says you are not a Christian, I was just thanking you for an outsider's perspective.
As a Christian, I know the "commission" will be in force until the return of Christ.
How do I know that?
It is written..."And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14)
The end has not come yet, therefore the commission is in force.

I cited relevant passages: https://christianforums.net/threads...reached-in-the-whole-world.41388/post-1673941
Paul appears to have felt that way.

Did Paul quit preaching the gospel?
No.
In fact he wasn't even aware of north or south America, or Australia.

 

[T. E. Smith]

It is written..."And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14)

Once again, not in continuation of the Great Commission, which wasn't even given when Jesus said this.

Did Paul quit preaching the gospel?
No.
In fact he wasn't even aware of north or south America, or Australia.

Paul says it was proclaimed to "all nations" and "all creation under heaven." Before I consider your view further, I'll need an explanation of those verses.

 

[Hopeful]

Once again, not in continuation of the Great Commission, which wasn't even given when Jesus said this.

As there is no "great commission" noted in the scriptures, it is a moot point.

Paul says it was proclaimed to "all nations" and "all creation under heaven." Before I consider your view further, I'll need an explanation of those verses.

It may very well have been all the nations he knew of, but he didn't know of them all.
The command to keep preaching the gospel is still in effect.
And new nations will continue to emerge probably until the last day.

 

[T. E. Smith]

As there is no "great commission" noted in the scriptures, it is a moot point.

Once again, not in continuation of the Great Commission the command in Matthew 28, which wasn't even given when Jesus said this.

It may very well have been all the nations he knew of, but he didn't know of them all.
The command to keep preaching the gospel is still in effect.
And new nations will continue to emerge probably until the last day.

He doesn't say that. He says every nation and all creation under heaven and gives no qualifications such as "that we know of."

 

[Hopeful]

Once again, not in continuation of the Great Commission the command in Matthew 28, which wasn't even given when Jesus said this.

He doesn't say that. He says every nation and all creation under heaven and gives no qualifications such as "that we know of."

That still leaves a lot of land that was not yet a nation.
As for what Paul was thinking when he wrote Cor 1:23..."If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"...I don't know.
Maybe just hyperbole.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not comfortable with the nomenclature “great” commission as Jesus didn’t use that description. The preaching of the gospel to all nations and then the end will come has occurred and the Bible days is has already occurred and the end of that age came. That’s what I meant.

The literal words Rapture and Trinity is not found written, but they are explained in scripture. If the end has come then why are we still here on this present earth continuing to be sent out by God to preach the Gospel message like the Disciples when they were called first? If all the prophecies have been fulfilled then why has Jesus not returned for His Bride? Biblical days are from the beginning of God's creation to the end of time as the preaching of the word continues and brought to those who need to hear and that never ends until the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Christ returns. Biblical days are not done, but carried out in every generation until we are with the Lord for eternity as the word of God is never endless.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The end came and I missed it?
I think not, as I didn't see the approaching Jesus in the sky.

Jesus “coming in the clouds” in scripture means judgement not simply returning bodily. The end of the age was the end of the mosaic age based on the laws Moses gave. This ended with the complete destruction of the Temple, its records and observances. It’s not the end of the world. That’s my position, in any case. You needn’t agree but please understand correctly what it is you do not believe.

You added "known then", when that isn't what was written.
And the end of the Mosaic age came at the resurrection of the Lord from the grave.

No, the resurrection did not end the Mosaic age. It continued for 40 years. That’s not just my view. The jewish faith as delivered by Moses was more or less practiced in full until 70 AD and has never been observed since. No temple, no sacrifices, no Mosaic judaism. They cannot otherwise fulfill the requirements as I see it.

As the word "great" wasn't originally in the bible, there is actually no change between then and now.

I agree. It was just a commission and not at that time did he speak of the end at conclusion of Matthew.

Hyperbole.

Have you ever used the user name "Dottie"?

I don’t think so. Are you thinking of someone you liked, well then maybe that WAS me, but if you didn’t like that Dottie, that definitely wasn’t me. (Did you laugh?)

I actually have had to use variations of that name if it was already taken (not seldom.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why do you feel the "great commission" died with the apostles?
I don't feel that way at all.

Did I say I think the call to make disciples of all people groups died? If so that was not well communicated.

I do not think so, but I don’t call it what Jesus didn’t, “great.” The call continues. The end came but isn’t connected to making disciples of all people groups.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The literal words Rapture and Trinity is not found written, but they are explained in scripture.

Rapture is a doctrine from the 19th century and is not implicit in the scripture at all. You think it’s there. I do not. The verses used refer to the resurrection. Trinity comes from tri-unity. Since there are three persons mentioned, it is there whether we use the nomenclature or not.

If the end has come then why are we still here on this present earth continuing to be sent out by God to preach the Gospel message like the Disciples when they were called first?

It was only the end of the Mosaic law age. The chapters after Matthew 24 describe the situation in the age after the laws of Moses ended which is why Matthew 25 starts with “at that time” indicating a new age or setting.

If all the prophecies have been fulfilled then why has Jesus not returned for His Bride?

It was only the end of the Mosaic age. The description of Jesus’ second coming is later in Matthew 24 and has no signs. That is my view.

Biblical days are from the beginning of God's creation to the end of time as the preaching of the word continues and brought to those who need to hear and that never ends until the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Christ returns. Biblical days are not done, but carried out in every generation until we are with the Lord for eternity as the word of God is never endless.

ok, I agree. I haven’t said any different, did I?

 

[for_his_glory]

Rapture is a doctrine from the 19th century and is not implicit in the scripture at all. You think it’s there. I do not. The verses used refer to the resurrection. Trinity comes from tri-unity. Since there are three persons mentioned, it is there whether we use the nomenclature or not.

I agree the Rapture is from the 19th century stared in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s.

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.



After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.



Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.

(Reference
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16

(Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree the Rapture is from the 19th century stared in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s.

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say.​

That’s the resurrection in my view when the dead arise first. It clearly says the dead come out of their graves. That’s resurrection.

The last trumpet there has nothing to do with the resurrection and neither is anything close to a rapture when the last trumpet is mentioned in Revelation 11. Chapter 12 which follows is about the woman (church) who clearly is on the earth not raptured.

Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.
​

Revelation 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. The saints were not rescued at all but murdered in the most dangerous attack on the young church in history. I read no rapture out. The letters to the churches were warning them what was soon to come. It wasn’t a promised way out.

Can you show me where the church is raptured out in 14 and 15. I just read it (and was thrilled) and cannot find a removing of the believers. I read 16 and it’s about the wrath of God being poured out.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

​

But where is the Rapture in Revelation in there? I read the Resurrection for sure.

“Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.” No rapture of the living that I can see.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.​

I don’t see the Mt of Olives in Revelation 19-20. Did I miss it? I see only the resurrected men here, no rapture.

(Reference
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16

(Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.​

In a discussion it is actually your part to provide the references in quote form that supposedly say what you think they do. This type of “homework” is not a discussion but a lecture.

Please don’t mistake me. I am very much enjoying reading Revelation again searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. I am not trying to „be right.” I’ve simply read them and see no “saints caught up rescued from wrath” there. Jesus actually told the believers, like he told Lot and Noah how to avoid the wrath of God in judgement. Each time it was “choose to leave.”

If you can answer my questions I’d be grateful.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rapture is a doctrine from the 19th century and is not implicit in the scripture at all. You think it’s there. I do not. The verses used refer to the resurrection. Trinity comes from tri-unity. Since there are three persons mentioned, it is there whether we use the nomenclature or not.

It was only the end of the Mosaic law age. The chapters after Matthew 24 describe the situation in the age after the laws of Moses ended which is why Matthew 25 starts with “at that time” indicating a new age or setting.

It was only the end of the Mosaic age. The description of Jesus’ second coming is later in Matthew 24 and has no signs. That is my view.

ok, I agree. I haven’t said any different, did I?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. These are the only ones Jesus has fulfilled in His birth, death and resurrection. Of all the 613 laws there are many that even we being a Gentile must keep that are the moral laws.

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.

(Reference
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16


(Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000 years) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. These are the only ones Jesus has fulfilled in His birth, death and resurrection. Of all the 613 laws there are many that even we being a Gentile must keep that are the moral laws.

True but what does that to do with the discussion?

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58;​

The 7th trumpet is in Rev 11 followed not by a rapture but difficulties on the earth. Rev 12 is about the church, clearly on the earth.

1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.​

I read those chapters and find no rapture. 1 Thes is referring to the resurrection in my view. Rev speaks in more detail about the resurrection and no rapture of the living mentioned.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, Matthew 24:29-31; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.
​

But matthew 24 doesn’t address any Rapture that I see. Are you referring to “one taken and one left?” That’s a stretch.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives,​

These are the dead and resurrected and I couldn’t find Mt of Olives there. Did I miss it?

Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.

(Reference
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16


(Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000 years) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.​

Since this is a discussion it’s better to quote the real words you think support your point. It’s not a lecture with homework. Also, my experience is quoting isolated verses usually results in them not supporting the position.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus “coming in the clouds” in scripture means judgement not simply returning bodily.

Judgement happens at His return.

The end of the age was the end of the mosaic age based on the laws Moses gave. This ended with the complete destruction of the Temple, its records and observances. It’s not the end of the world. That’s my position, in any case. You needn’t agree but please understand correctly what it is you do not believe.

The Mosaic age ended at the resurrection of Christ, after the Law was nailed to His cross.
Only the unbelieving Jews couldn't believe that.

No, the resurrection did not end the Mosaic age. It continued for 40 years. That’s not just my view. The jewish faith as delivered by Moses was more or less practiced in full until 70 AD and has never been observed since. No temple, no sacrifices, no Mosaic judaism. They cannot otherwise fulfill the requirements as I see it.

See above.

I agree. It was just a commission and not at that time did he speak of the end at conclusion of Matthew.

Agreed.

I don’t think so. Are you thinking of someone you liked, well then maybe that WAS me, but if you didn’t like that Dottie, that definitely wasn’t me. (Did you laugh?)

Yup.

I actually have had to use variations of that name if it was already taken (not seldom.)

OK, I met a Dottie on another site and she too was from the UK.
We did have contrasting POVs.
But I pray for everyone I meet.

 

[Hopeful]

Did I say I think the call to make disciples of all people groups died? If so that was not well communicated.

OK, thanks.

I do not think so, but I don’t call it what Jesus didn’t, “great.” The call continues. The end came but isn’t connected to making disciples of all people groups.

Agreed...if the end you refer to was the "end" of the OC/OT.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Judgement happens at His return.

True perhaps but it happened in history including 70AD.

The Mosaic age ended at the resurrection of Christ, after the Law was nailed to His cross.
Only the unbelieving Jews couldn't believe that.

No, the temple jewish worship continued for 4o years. Jesus himself told his disciples he would be with them til the end of the age. That age was not yet done.

See above.

Agreed.

Yup.

OK, I met a Dottie on another site and she too was from the UK.
We did have contrasting POVs.
But I pray for everyone I meet.

Ah, I’m not from the UK. Did I dodge a bullet?

 

[Hopeful]

True perhaps but it happened in history including 70AD.

The unbelieving Jews were the ones who held on to the the old customs.
The believing Jews had no use for any if it even if they did still attend some services at a temple.

No, the temple jewish worship continued for 4o years. Jesus himself told his disciples he would be with them til the end of the age. That age was not yet done.

Not for believers in Christ.
We are the temple of the Holy Spirit now.

Ah, I’m not from the UK. Did I dodge a bullet?

I saw you were from Europe, and mistakenly put it together.
No bullets from here...

 

[for_his_glory]

That’s the resurrection in my view when the dead arise first. It clearly says the dead come out of their graves. That’s resurrection.

The last trumpet there has nothing to do with the resurrection and neither is anything close to a rapture when the last trumpet is mentioned in Revelation 11. Chapter 12 which follows is about the woman (church) who clearly is on the earth not raptured.

Revelation 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. The saints were not rescued at all but murdered in the most dangerous attack on the young church in history. I read no rapture out. The letters to the churches were warning them what was soon to come. It wasn’t a promised way out.

Can you show me where the church is raptured out in 14 and 15. I just read it (and was thrilled) and cannot find a removing of the believers. I read 16 and it’s about the wrath of God being poured out.

But where is the Rapture in Revelation in there? I read the Resurrection for sure.

“Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.” No rapture of the living that I can see.

I don’t see the Mt of Olives in Revelation 19-20. Did I miss it? I see only the resurrected men here, no rapture.

In a discussion it is actually your part to provide the references in quote form that supposedly say what you think they do. This type of “homework” is not a discussion but a lecture.

Please don’t mistake me. I am very much enjoying reading Revelation again searching the scriptures to see if these things be so. I am not trying to „be right.” I’ve simply read them and see no “saints caught up rescued from wrath” there. Jesus actually told the believers, like he told Lot and Noah how to avoid the wrath of God in judgement. Each time it was “choose to leave.”

If you can answer my questions I’d be grateful.

First I do not believe in a pretrib Rapture, nor do I ever use that word when I explain being caught up to Christ. It's when we step out of man's doctrines and read that which is already written then we will understand the doctrines of Christ, not the doctrines of the more than 5000 religions that are in the world.

The resurrection is the catching up of the saints taught to us in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 that happens on the last day after the sounding of the seventh trumpet when Christ returns in the clouds, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 6:40.

The rest of the dead are those of the other part of the resurrection that have been raised to damnation whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life. The second death are those who rejected Christ and had no faith in God being Spiritually dead that are raised from their graves, Ephesians 2:1-10. Scripture never teaches two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and a second death being that of Spiritual death and hell being the grave are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15 as they had no Spiritual power over death. There are two separate judgments, but only one resurrection as everything from Rev 19-20 happens on the last day that has no ending. Those who are priest of God and will reign with Him are those of the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

You have to cross reference Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-22 and Rev 16:16 that mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

I did reference all those scriptures, but way to long a list to actually paste the full verses. That is why I gave a list so others can go back and read them for themselves. If one does not do their own homework then they will only rely on what man teaches them instead of searching for truth.

For the last time, I do not believe in a pretrib Rapture of the body of Chris as I believe the catching up of the body of Christ happens on the last day when Christ returns in the clouds and we, both alive and those who are in the grave that are His own will first be changed and then caught in the clouds to meet Him in the air and will ever more be with him for eternity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

First I do not believe in a pretrib Rapture, nor do I ever use that word when I explain being caught up to Christ. It's when we step out of man's doctrines and read that which is already written then we will understand the doctrines of Christ, not the doctrines of the more than 5000 religions that are in the world.

The resurrection is the catching up of the saints taught to us in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 that happens on the last day after the sounding of the seventh trumpet when Christ returns in the clouds, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 6:40.

I feel like you didn’t answer my question but repeated your view. And again, it would be better not to refer to your view as “the doctrines of Christ” and those who don’t see the matter as you do “man’s doctrine.”

The difficulty with the trumpet in Matthew as being identified with the signal for the rapture is that the description of what follows the 7th trumpet in Revelation chapter 11 does not match the rapture theory description. Rev 12 describes the church on earth suffering. There is also much more beyond that 7th trumpet that does not match at all the description in Matthew.

Also, As I said, “coming in the clouds” as in the Matthew verse is used in scripture to signify great judgement on the level that wipes out a nation as they knew it. To insist this means the rapture, is to ignore the verses that do not fit. “Coming in the clouds” means judgement as the Jews who heard Jesus say those words knew what he meant and were livid at that point. It meant judgement.

Starting at verse 36 in Matthew 24 are the descriptions of the 2nd coming. There are no signs for this which conflicts with Matthew 24:29 which describes signs of the end that you think describe the 2nd coming. The world is not in turmoil but business as usual as Jesus describes it.

The rest of the dead are those of the other part of the resurrection that have been raised to damnation whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life. The second death are those who rejected Christ and had no faith in God being Spiritually dead that are raised from their graves, Ephesians 2:1-10. Scripture never teaches two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and a second death being that of Spiritual death and hell being the grave are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15 as they had no Spiritual power over death. There are two separate judgments, but only one resurrection as everything from Rev 19-20 happens on the last day that has no ending. Those who are priest of God and will reign with Him are those of the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

The fact that Jesus in Revelation actually says “2nd resurrection” leads me to accept the teaching of Jesus on this matter. If he literally says 2nd resurrection, I believe there are two. But the details are not clear in my mind. Part of being open is not having all details nicely ironed out but willing to consider the input of others. As such, I will consider other points of your view. I am quite open, you see.

You have to cross reference Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-22 and Rev 16:16 that mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

Ok, so no planting his feet on a physical mountain in Revelation. That is assumed from pulling out then necessary verses from elsewhere. Strange Jesus didn’t mention this to John though.

I did reference all those scriptures, but way to long a list to actually paste the full verses. That is why I gave a list so others can go back and read them for themselves. If one does not do their own homework then they will only rely on what man teaches them instead of searching for truth.

My dear sister, reading the isolated verses out of context does not necessarily lead to thinking the way you think of it. I can assure you that very competent theologians have thoroughly read all the verses you quote and do NOT think this is exactly what Jesus said. I know this because they do not agree with one another even.

The problem with you refusing to quote some verses that supposedly back up your claim is you make the exchange a closed lecture from you. Your presentation is a lecture with a bit of why you see a verse or verses as saying what you personally believe they say. That is not an open discussing scripture. Siting the references and ASSUMING by reading them we will come to see the matter as you do is NOT a discussion. Let’s try to be open to discussing our views, not merely give a reference with the assumption that explains all. Just use the verses you show say what you say they say.

For the last time, I do not believe in a pretrib Rapture of the body of Chris as I believe the catching up of the body of Christ happens on the last day when Christ returns in the clouds and we, both alive and those who are in the grave that are His own will first be changed and then caught in the clouds to meet Him in the air and will ever more be with him for eternity.

I don’t believe in a rapture at all. I believe there is a resurrection for us at a time when no signs are being given.

Now if you mean at the resurrection those who are alive have a “heavenly uplifting” experience with the Great Judgement following, no beast or bowls of wrath or marks or terrible conditions following, we agree.

That is my view. I’m open to think about and examine the views of others and do not insist how I think of things is the only Biblical view or Jesus’ view.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The unbelieving Jews were the ones who held on to the the old customs.
The believing Jews had no use for any if it even if they did still attend some services at a temple.

No argument there but I’m not sure how this pertains to the discussion. The believing Jews knew the warning of Jesus was to be applied when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and left town as he had advised.

Not for believers in Christ.
We are the temple of the Holy Spirit now.

Yes, but this doesn’t change the fact that there was a physical temple and it was so destroyed that not one stone was left upon another as Jesus predicted. Seeing the fulfillment of prophesy is very encouraging.

I saw you were from Europe, and mistakenly put it together.
No bullets from here...

Thanks. I’m a Yank but just live in Europe, for better or worse.