This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world...

[Hitch]

The Church Fathers were all futurists - still expecting a return of Christ. Your idea of "generation" makes all the fathers appear to be liars (and stupid), because none of them understood the second coming to have been fulfilled in 70 AD.

Which of my posts claim the second coming has been fulfilled?

Either they are ALL wrong..., or just maybe... the preterist doctrine that was introduced by Jesuits in 1614 was itself wrong. My guess is that the Jesuit was wrong and all of the Church Fathers were right.

 

[reba]

The hostility of this thread was brought to my attention earlier today....

So i will be doing some clean up.... You have been reminded of the ToS often.

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

I will not try to politly edit your posts, just cut the violating parts/post. reba

When you guys discuss Scripture it is a good read.... If you all just want to throw jabs try the gym or local bar.

 

[Tri Unity]

Which of my posts claim the second coming has been fulfilled?

Are you a futurist or preterist?

 

[Sinthesis]

Preterism is not monolithic. Neither is futurism. As a partial preterist I get to sit on the sidelines and watch pre-tribbers and post-tribbers tear each other to pieces. Great fun! Especially as I don't agree with either side. I also disagree with full preterism, but understand that it is an error of degree rather than full blown heresy.

 

[Tri Unity]

Preterism is not monolithic. Neither is futurism. As a partial preterist I get to sit on the sidelines and watch pre-tribbers and post-tribbers tear each other to pieces. Great fun! Especially as I don't agree with either side. I also disagree with full preterism, but understand that it is an error of degree rather than full blown heresy.

There is no such thing as partial preterism. .

 

[Jock]

I'm trying to get you to understand that the passage in Zechariah you quoted is not going to be fulfilled in our future, as you have asserted.

You insisted that the verses in Zech 14 could not refer to a future to us fulfilment because they mention the law.

However the prophecies used the law to show their NT fulfilment .

There will not be a return to the old covenant in the future but we should note that the fulfilment of the feast of weeks as it is under the new covenant is in the pouring out of the Holy Spirit , and the feast of trumpets of the law are fulfilled under the new covenant as described in the Rev.ch's 8 to 11.

So it should not be difficult to understand the feast of tabernacles as it is fulfilled under the new covenent in the future.

Note that the way of keeping of these feast days as described in the book of Rev. were never kept that way while the old covenant was in force which shows that the Rev. account is of NT times, and neither was Babylon destroyed in the past.

Only transfer of power to another identity has yet occured.



Jock

 

[Hitch]

There is no such thing as partial preterism. Either Christ returns in the future or he does not. He cannot partially return. .

. No one can claim to be a believer and claim that no prophecy has been fullfiled. You need to review a real definition of the term.

 

[JLB]

I havent noticed a direct response to my questions ,where are they? Although I can see posts in which you are clearly dodging my questions So much for your ' Salvation by Sight' gospel

None of what you are saying lines up with the scriptures.

As you can clearly see from the following verse's, none of these things occurred when Jesus was here on earth. These are events that are yet to occur.

As I said, when He appears in the clouds and every eye will see Him!


2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.


Show me in the Gospels where this happened!

4 In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem.

In 70 AD the city and sanctuary were destroyed, yet in these verse's The Lord is fighting for Jerusalem.

Notice what is written here -

The Lord himself is strengthening the Governors od Judah so that they destroy the surrounding peoples.

Show in the Gospels where this event occurred!


7 "The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Show in the Gospels where "all the surrounding nations came against Jerusalem".

You can't, because they were under the domination of the Roman empire!

These events are future!


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.


If the Jews still practice Judaism, these events have yet to occur in the future!


The word of God here has clearly show preterism to be false doctrine!

JLB

 

[JLB]

Then why was Paul still looking forward to His coming when he wrote this to the Thessalonians:

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:19 (NASB)

or this:

so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 (NASB)

or this:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NASB)

or how could the writer of Hebrews have written this if Christ's coming were fulfilled at His resurrection?

For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. Hebrews 10:36-37 (NASB)

This was all written years after Christ had been raised and had ascended and the apostles who wrote these words were still looking for His coming which He said would happen while some of them still lived!

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB) Jesus Christ fulfilled these scriptures when He returned from the heart of the earth with the old testament saints.


These scriptures were fulfilled by Christ as the word says.


Paul writes about the Second Coming which is in the future!


JLB

 

[Tri Unity]

. No one can claim to be a believer and claim that no prophecy has been fullfiled. You need to review a real definition of the term.

That's exactly right. All Christians believe that some prophecy's have been fulfilled. Preterism is unique in that it says that Christ has already come. The definition given by REBA in an earlier post says that "partial preterism" believes Christ is still to come. This is not Preterism, it is futurism. If you believe Christ is still to come you believe there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled concerning the return of Christ; which makes you a futurist, not preterist. It seems to me that "preterists" are highly confused about these things.

 

[reba]

We did some moving of forums and threads a couple months ago... The STICKY giving the views of orthodox preterism etc i now cant find...

This site held orthodox preterism (partial ) to be an understood and accepted term. Implying some preterist are looking for His return.

Agree or not that is the useage for this forum. Hopefully this knowledge and its acceptance will help end some confusion.

 

[Tri Unity]

Implying some preterist are looking for His return.

The labels have been confused. If you are still awaiting the return of Christ then you are a futurist. If you peronally want to be associated with preterism, then that is your choice... but any future expectation of Christ is futurism.

 

[Stormcrow]

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

Jesus Christ fulfilled these scriptures when He returned from the heart of the earth with the old testament saints.

These scriptures were fulfilled by Christ as the word says.

Good. So then we're clear: you believe Christ's second coming, while some of them were still alive, was fulfilled with His resurrection.

So then when Jesus said this in the verse just before the one cited above...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. Matthew 16:27 (NASB)

Are you suggesting that was fulfilled, too? Because John wrote the same thing here:

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

See, the problem you have with your wholly unique preterist view is that if the resurrection represents the fulfillment of Christ's second coming “while some of them were still alive”, then that's when the judgment happened, too.

Your view places His second coming and judgment at the resurrection. Wow. That's more hyper preterist than any hyper preterist teaching I've ever read.

But then, your unique brand of “hyper full-blown gonzo-whopper super duper preterism” ignores all the other passages in the New Testament – written after the resurrection but before the destruction of Jerusalem – that say this:

FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. Hebrews 10:37 (NASB)

or this:

The end of all things is near... 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

or this:

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

I won't bore everyone posting – yet again – all the passages in the New Testament written by the apostles claiming Christ would be returning soon for them and the people to whom they were writing. You need look no further than the first and twenty-second chapters of Revelation – written after the resurrection but before the fall of Jerusalem – to see what they believed.

So again, either Christ returned as He promised – while some of them still lived (complete with judgment and all) – or He did not.

But if He did not, He is not who He claimed to be and there's really no point in following Him then, is there?

The God I worship doesn't break His word.

 

[JLB]

Good. So then we're clear: you believe Christ's second coming, while some of them were still alive, was fulfilled with His resurrection.

So then when Jesus said this in the verse just before the one cited above...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. Matthew 16:27 (NASB)

Are you suggesting that was fulfilled, too? Because John wrote the same thing here:

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

See, the problem you have with your wholly unique preterist view is that if the resurrection represents the fulfillment of Christ's second coming “while some of them were still alive”, then that's when the judgment happened, too.

Your view places His second coming and judgment at the resurrection. Wow. That's more hyper preterist than any hyper preterist teaching I've ever read.

But then, your unique brand of “hyper full-blown gonzo-whopper super duper preterism” ignores all the other passages in the New Testament – written after the resurrection but before the destruction of Jerusalem – that say this:

FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. Hebrews 10:37 (NASB)

or this:

The end of all things is near... 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

or this:

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

I won't bore everyone posting – yet again – all the passages in the New Testament written by the apostles claiming Christ would be returning soon for them and the people to whom they were writing. You need look no further than the first and twenty-second chapters of Revelation – written after the resurrection but before the fall of Jerusalem – to see what they believed.

So again, either Christ returned as He promised – while some of them still lived (complete with judgment and all) – or He did not.

But if He did not, He is not who He claimed to be and there's really no point in following Him then, is there?

The God I worship doesn't break His word.

So then we're clear: you believe Christ's second coming, while some of them were still alive, was fulfilled with His resurrection.

You used the term "Second Coming" here not me.

You ASSUME that is what I meant, like you do with the rest of the scriptures!

He appeared in His Glorified form to His disciples -

You use of terms and labels "triggers" your preconceived "mindset" so that you categorize these terms with preconceived ideas that you are "stuck" in so that you can not see past them.

Another words you are blind to the truth in favor of your doctrine!

You assume these two verses mean the same thing and will happen at the same time!

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Jesus Christ can "appear" to some of His disciples while on earth or in a vision, or like Paul and John He can bring them up to the third heaven and "appear" to them in heaven.

Here is another event that could be a fulfillment of Him appearing to "some here will not taste death until...

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:1-3

This verse -

28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

does not necessarily have to occur at the same instant as this verse -

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

For you to assume you know exactly what The Lord meant when He said -

...there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

so that you disregard all the other scripture that speak of His return at the end of the age with the associated signs that clearly have not happened yet, along with the resurrection of the dead as well as the end of all "rule and authority" is why you are so blind in your preconceived mindset!



Here in this verse in Acts is the reference to His return in the clouds used.
From this time forward The Second Coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds with power and great glory whereby every eye will see Him, even those that pierced Him is associated with The Second Coming.

It is this event that is still in the future.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


Others have made the same mistake as you are your preterist buddies, only this mistake is recorded in scripture for us to learn from -

Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?"

Full Preterist views are not valid doctrine!


JLB

 

[reba]

The labels have been confused. If you are still awaiting the return of Christ then you are a futurist. If you peronally want to be associated with preterism, then that is your choice... but any future expectation of Christ is futurism.

One last time for use here in these forums orthodox (partial) preterism is an understood and used term. The confusion is not with the term. Please do not continue to try and argue your point. Moderator reba

 

[Stormcrow]

So then we're clear: you believe Christ's second coming, while some of them were still alive, was fulfilled with His resurrection.

You used the term "Second Coming" here not me.

That's because he's talking about His second coming, NOT the resurrection!

You ASSUME that is what I meant, like you do with the rest of the scriptures!

Ad hominem. Address the issue, not the person.

He appeared in His Glorified form to His disciples -

Yep. What does that have to do with the second coming?

You use of terms and labels "triggers" your preconceived "mindset" so that you categorize these terms with preconceived ideas that you are "stuck" in so that you can not see past them.

Another words you are blind to the truth in favor of your doctrine!

Ad hominem. Address the issue, not the person.

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

You assume these two verses mean the same thing and will happen at the same time!

That is the point of the context and Matthew is not the only one who received Christ's words that way:

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

This was written after the resurrection (and the ascension) and juxtaposes the second coming with judgment. The Greek word John uses for “coming” in Revelation 22:12 is the same Greek word Matthew uses in Matthew 16:27-28. That word is “erchomai.”

In fact, the NASB indicates that Matthew 16:27 is a parallel passage to Revelation 22:12.

Again, if Matthew 16:28 is fulfilled by the resurrection, so is Revelation 22:12. And if Revelation 22:12 is fulfilled by the resurrection, so is Matthew 16:27. You cannot separate His second coming in any of these passages from His judgment!

Placing the fulfillment of Christ's second coming (because clearly, that's what both Matthew 16:28 and Revelation 22:12 are referring to) at the resurrection is something no preterist or futurist believes. It is an invention entirely of your own making and certainly doesn't disprove preterism.

Jesus Christ can "appear" to some of His disciples while on earth or in a vision, or like Paul and John He can bring them up to the third heaven and "appear" to them in heaven.

And...?

Here is another event that could be a fulfillment of Him appearing to "some here will not taste death until...

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:1-3

Except that Christ told Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin at His trial that they would see Him, too. He told them this after the Transfiguration!

Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

The Greek word for “coming” in this verse is “erchomai”, too, and this is a direct reference to Daniel 7:13.

But Jesus said the same thing in Matthew 25:31:

"But when the Son of Man comes [erchomai] in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Matthew 25:31 (NASB)

Matthew 25:31 begins a long passage about the judgment Christ brings with His second coming!

Your unique interpretation of Matthew 16:28 - that His resurrection represents a "coming into His kingdom" that is a separate and distinct "coming" from His second coming - doesn't pass either scriptural muster or the "smell test."

For you to assume you know exactly what The Lord meant when He said -

...there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

so that you disregard all the other scripture that speak of His return at the end of the age with the associated signs that clearly have not happened yet, along with the resurrection of the dead as well as the end of all "rule and authority"is why you are so blind in your preconceived mindset!

I'm tired of your assaults on my intelligence, character and beliefs. If you can't make your point without casting aspersions on my character and faith, feel free to take it somewhere else. 2

 

[Stormcrow]

One more thing...

The verse cited from Acts as proof of a future event (for us) uses the same Greek word ("erchomai") Matthew uses in Matthew 16:28 and Matthew 10:23:

They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come ("erchomai") in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Acts 1:11 (NASB)

Did anyone living in 21st century America see Him ascend on a cloud into heaven???

Further proof that the promise of His return was for these "men of Galilee" and not for us?

Matthew 16:28 and Matthew 10:23...

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes [erchomai]. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming [erchomai] in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

If you still believe Jesus is coming back to earth for us after all this, can I have your stuff?

 

[Stormcrow]

And just for grins, "erchomai" is used here, too:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, [erchomai] the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 (NASB)

Jesus said He would come while some of them still lived, before that generation passed away. Keeping Revelation 1:8 in mind, John, writing no later than 68 AD, also wrote this:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

The sign of His presence on the throne of His kingdom and the end of the Mosaic Age was the destruction and judgment of Jerusalem. That happened in 70 AD. Jesus kept His word to Caiaphas, the Sanhedrin, and His apostles and the churches they founded.

Futurism is false doctrine.

 

[twospirits]

And just for grins, "erchomai" is used here, too:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, [erchomai] the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 (NASB)

Jesus said He would come while some of them still lived, before that generation passed away. Keeping Revelation 1:8 in mind, John, writing no later than 68 AD, also wrote this:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

The sign of His presence on the throne of His kingdom and the end of the Mosaic Age was the destruction and judgment of Jerusalem. That happened in 70 AD. Jesus kept His word to Caiaphas, the Sanhedrin, and His apostles and the churches they founded.

Futurism is false doctrine.

Is this what you will say to Christ when he comes? That Christ's coming (futurism) is false doctrine?

 

[twospirits]

And just for grins, "erchomai" is used here, too:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, [erchomai] the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 (NASB)

Jesus said He would come while some of them still lived, before that generation passed away. Keeping Revelation 1:8 in mind, John, writing no later than 68 AD, also wrote this:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

The sign of His presence on the throne of His kingdom and the end of the Mosaic Age was the destruction and judgment of Jerusalem. That happened in 70 AD. Jesus kept His word to Caiaphas, the Sanhedrin, and His apostles and the churches they founded.

Futurism is false doctrine.

Is that what you will tell Christ when he comes to gather his elect? That his coming (futurism) is false doctrine?

God bless---Twospirits