Dorothy Mae
Member
My mistake, Zechariah and the Resurrection is never mentioned in the passages you quote.I never mentioned Ezekiel.
Strengthening families through biblical principles.
Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.
Read daily articles from Focus on the Family in the Marriage and Parenting Resources forum.
My mistake, Zechariah and the Resurrection is never mentioned in the passages you quote.I never mentioned Ezekiel.
My mistake, Zechariah and the Resurrection is never mentioned in the passages you quote.
You can post this a dozen times and I will still ask, where is the Resurrection in the above passage? Did you know that there are saints in Heaven right now? They do not have their resurrected body yet, but they are in Heaven. The resurrection has not yet occurred and there they are. The above has no reference whatsoever to the Resurrection.Again, here is Zechariah 14:1-5
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5
Still no Resurrection. Now you are mixing up events which is why you have to get a totally different reference that does speak of the Resurrection. Jesus will come as he left without no entourage, no sword and no violence. Acts 1:11 Men of Galilee, why are you standing here looking into the sky? Jesus, whom you saw taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way
- Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
From the New Testament —
- even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
No, there is no indication that Christ is coming again with a military entourage. Paul does not describe it that way and obviously did not believe so. The fight and carnage described in Zech was at the fall of Jerusalem and the verses following describe Jesus and his followers going through and changing the nations which has been happening since the first century. You are mixing up events which is why you need two different passages describing two different events.Those who return with Christ shown in Zechariah 14:5 and
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, will rise first: the dead in Christ will rise first.
You can post this a dozen times and I will still ask, where is the Resurrection in the above passage?
Two saints were with him on the mt of transfiguration. Still no Resurrection. Saints being with Jesus does not meant Resurrection which has a totally different description. This does not even give a hint of them being resurrected to start a war. That is not referring to the Resurrection. Btw, immediately after the Resurrection is Judgement, not war.Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5
No, in Acts it says he comes as he left. But “coming in the clouds” means Judgement like in 70 AD.The saints come with Him from heaven when He returns.
That’s what you ADD to the text. It doesn’t say that.The reason they come with Him from heaven is to receive their resurrected bodies; at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
No war, no bloodshed, no vengeance, nothing like in Zech.But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
Two saints were with him on the mt of transfiguration. Still no Resurrection.
The mt.of transfiguration shows us that saints coming with Jesus doesn’t require the resurrection as there are saints with Jesus now.Was the mount of transfiguration the Day of the Lord.
All the saints does not mean 2.
Yes, clearly. It is the day of the wrath of God being poured out on harlot Israel revenging the blood of the saints and prophets from Abel to Zechariah as Jesus said. That makes sense. That God decides to be mad at some future generation for no particular reason makes no sense. They will not have crucified the son of God and will be no worse than any other.Can’t you see the context is the Day of the Lord, in Zechariah 14:5?
For them, coming. for us, came.Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Why do some christians look forward to the above? They aren’t even rescued. If we read about the Resurrection in Thessalonians we read nothing of this sort of activity. If we read of the terrible events of Matthew 24, the Resurrection at best is when all the terribles are over and done. If we look at Revelations regarding the Resurrection, we see that immediately following this is the Judgement. No war or pillaging or rape comes after or with it.And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
After all the women are raped, the houses pillaged and many murdered…….there is some rescue. Why is this joyfully anticipated.But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5
Preterism is not founded on one verse, but a consistent adherence to rules of hermeneutics, understanding of the temporary and servile nature of mosaic covt Israel, and various other foundations and principles.Zechariah 14 is what Jesus was teaching His disciples privately on the mountain of Olives, which is also called the Olivet Discourse, found in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.
Preterism is founded upon the words … But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
Preterist’s believe the only possible interpretation for these words can only be the events of 70 AD.
Do you honestly believe that the coming of the Lord and the resurrection and rapture, as well as the destruction of the wicked is “past”?
JLB
And we (I) believe they came with him, not bodily, but in spirit of judgement. There was weird stuff going on in Judea as the Romans went city by city, beseiging and destroying them. Rabbis were begging to be killed by the romans, acknowledging that they had failed to believe upon the messiah... Begging the rocks to fall upon them.Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5
The saints come with Him from heaven when He returns.
The reason they come with Him from heaven is to receive their resurrected bodies; at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
JLB
The mt.of transfiguration shows us that saints coming with Jesus doesn’t require the resurrection as there are saints with Jesus now.
And we (I) believe they came with him, not bodily, but in spirit of judgement. There was weird stuff going on in Judea as the Romans went city by city, beseiging and destroying them. Rabbis were begging to be killed by the romans, acknowledging that they had failed to believe upon the messiah... Begging the rocks to fall upon them.
Paul says that.some will ask, with what type of body do they come. He calls them fools for asking.... then giving examples from nature that physical bodies do not resurrect unless through regeneration through biological seed. They come, came in spiritual bodies.
The consistent hermeneutic ripule of considering the genre of literature demands that Paul's letters be understood from the minds and era of his first readers and that they be understood as LETTERS with important facts for them, not prophecies written to future generations. Fools.
The splitting of the mount of olives is the standing of his judgement against both tribes of Israel, now paganized through Rome/Greek, and the tribes of Judah who tried to retain sin and sacrifice for sin, rejecting the new freedom from the laws of sin/death.
Take care of what you try to fight against in trying to refute fulfilled understandings. You might find yourself fighting against God.
Still no resurrection needed nor mentioned and the Resurrection does not involve a violent assault as your position states.The saints Peter, James and John are with Jesus when they were still alive.
The saints coming with Jesus on the Day of the Lord refers to Jesus and ALL the saints who died and are with Him in heaven returning with Him.
Well, you’re hanging und your whole position on one word. Not a chapter or passage or sentence but one word.All the saints is the key to understanding.
Yea, terrible by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly not something to look forward to. It’s also called the Day of Vengeance which happened in 70 AD.Day of the Lord is the key to understanding.
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Read about the Resurrection. Afterwards there is Judgement not a bloody violent assault. Notice the action of the Lord against the nations is after the women were raped, houses looted, and a portion taken off into slavery.Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5
Still no resurrection needed nor mentioned and the Resurrection does not involve a violent assault as your position states.
No it doesn’t and all will be Resurrected including the wicked in any case after which is Judgement, not invasion.Again, the saints coming with Him on the Day of the Lord refers to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
That is no where in the text. They come as an entourage to accomplish his goals.The saints come with Him to receive their resurrected bodies.
The Resurrection followed by the Day of JudgementFor if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
No Resurrection there.Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5
Ah, the terribly unlucky ones who are no worse than any other generation but happened to be unfortunately living in that awful day. Bummer!! (The Jews in 70 AD were worse than any other generation of Jews. They weren’t merely unlucky.)The events of Zechariah 14 refers to the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns destroy the wicked.
Yes he does. Armies don’t carry off the losers into slavery anymore.Zechariah doesn’t refer to the events of 70 AD.
I understand what you believe and why and what I believe and why.Do you understand this?
I understand that this is what youve been taught.The events of Zechariah 14 refers to the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns destroy the wicke
Zechariah doesn’t refer to the events of 70 AD
Do you understand this
JLB
The idea that some very unlucky generation, no worse than previous ones, will suffer the fate described makes no sense. The idea that Jesus is coming in a very hostile and violent bloody takeover makes no sense. That is actually what Mohammed did when he came to bring his religion. The idea that modern armies want anything at all in Jerusalem makes no sense.I understand that this is what youve been taught.
But no, zech 14 referred to the day of the lord in 70 AD.
That which the law spoke, it spoke to those under the law. So also, that which the prophets of the law prophecies, it prophecies to those within the temporary timeframe allotted for the nation of the law. The latter end and judgement of the way of sacrifice and the law was prophecied right when the law was given by Moses.
It cannot be extrapolated to a end of the world scenario when it's prophecies were confined to the time of the nation, which nation ended by the eternal new covenant.
Your trying to revive a dead horse.
Again, take care of your antipreterist teachings. Your unaware of key principles, having been taught others, such as the restoration of Israel.
Jesus referred to zech 14 in Matt 24 saying that the day of the death of the law would not be dark, nor light, but afterwards it would be light. OF (about) that day (of the death of the law) no man knew.... not the angels, nor the son, but only the father.for the sons ministry of the father was to redeem from the curse of the law.... Rom 8:2
I was just thinking of this same concept of the projection of hatred for humanity that the futurists and dispensational perspectives project.The idea that some very unlucky generation, no worse than previous ones, will suffer the fate described makes no sense. The idea that Jesus is coming in a very hostile and violent bloody takeover makes no sense. That is actually what Mohammed did when he came to bring his religion. The idea that modern armies want anything at all in Jerusalem makes no sense.
The whole of Dispensationalism makes no sense. Truth makes sense.