Thoughts on Joel Osteen

[Free]

LAWS do not and CAN NOT make anyone sinless.

No one has said otherwise. In fact, no one has said anything about this.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Read it and WEEP.

Weep about what? What is it that you think you've shown or proven?

I know you basically disregard the O.T. anyway, don't you?

No at all.

That said "laws" were only for JEWS? That is not true whatsoever.

Certain laws were for the Israelites only.

The Laws of God were made to empower and strengthen lawlessness and SIN, just as noted by Paul, above.

Paul says a lot of things about the Law. Perhaps you should take all that he says together and in context instead of a single verse in isolation.

Having said all that, I am not going to argue regarding the Law as it is off-topic and irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't approve of anyone's sin. Yet everyone is a sinner.

Of course everyone is a sinner. No one has said otherwise. Going to a gay wedding implies that you support and approve of that gay union.

You think this problem is going to stop by not looking?

What do you mean by "not looking" and who isn't looking?

Christians should practice condemning their own sin, and live their lives In His Love, regardless of any person's sin.

Who says they don't?

No one on this planet has "made themselves" sinless. So, why do you expect the impossible from others, when we, ourselves, can not 'get into' the place of sinlessness and be "in Truth?" People can "attribute" the Perfection of Jesus unto themselves all the day long. They are still sinners, regardless of any claimed attributions.

Why have you argued to points no one has made throughout your entire post?

 

[smaller]

What is any person's sin to me? Nothing!

Nothing can STOP The Grace and Love of God in Jesus Christ. Nothing.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Plant that GRACE where it will do some good. Where sin abounds.

 

[smaller]

Gods Grace is NOT afraid to look SIN directly in the eyes, or to sit with SINNERS.

Listen to the lying murmuring of the Pharisees, and avoid their trap:

Luke 15
Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

 

[jasonc]

And just how is going to a gay wedding going to lead people to Christ when it implies that they are okay in their sin, that God approves of something that the Bible makes very clear he does not approve of? It may lead people to a version of Christ but likely not the biblical Christ, unless you plan to start preaching Jesus at the wedding which probably wouldn't go over very well.

so you refuse to let them in your home then when they want to visit as a couple? I hope if yes you treat the other sinners that live together in fornication the same.

 

[Sparkey]

Read it and WEEP. I know you basically disregard the O.T. anyway, don't you?

No at all.

Over the years I've grown to know Free very well, or at least I think that's the case. And I can attest to the fact that he is speaking the truth, in sincerity and also in kindness. He's very direct. I like that.

But that's not to say that I could not choose to defend you, smaller, just as rigorously, I picked the other rather random, like the toss of the coin, but not really that, it was he that my cursor landed on first, that's all.

Going to a gay wedding implies that you support and approve of that gay union.

Not any more than saying that my talking to a guy who is very flamboyant and has brightly colored fingernails and is openly supportive of the hmmmm... dag-nab-it! Where is the acronym when I want it -- the gay lesbian trans-gender initials? Doesn't matter, you know what I mean and it will come to me soon enough - but just because I speak to and eat with a person of that flavor? That does NOT define me when I am doing Our Father's business. I'm me. It does not imply anything except to the ignorant. I am free to witness to the Love of God to whomever I am given to and to whomever is given to me. That's the working of the HS through me, the bird, nothing more. But also? Nothing less.

Still can't think of that acronym but it means "Gay Pride" and I don't respect the stealing of the Promise of the rainbow for their personal use... but what can a fellah do? Still stalling and waiting for the Gay Lesbian Transgender (GLT?) or the Queer Alliance code to filter up in me... it could be a long wait... sorry, gonna go make me some foods...

 

[turnorburn]

goodness sugar coated gospel...

It certainly isn't the gospel of Jesus Christ reba..

tob

 

[smaller]

I deal with LGBT people almost daily in my business. They will hear The Love of God in Christ from me. I have no use for anyone who can't love a sinner into His Kingdom. Stink upon all such posers who have buried their gifts in the ground of their dead body, and do not RISE from there to SHARE and MULTIPLY His Love.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm a full out diagnosed alcoholic, who hasn't touched a drop in decades, but that does not mean that I have not been ultimately and in the extreme, DELIVERED by the very hand of God, delivered from that sin. Like the Children out from Egypt. It does not mean that at all. And if anybody wanted to invite me to sit down with them in a bar and talk to them about Jesus? It would not matter. I'd order a orange juice and I would not care if a cherry was served on top - so that it looked like a drink. What is that to me?

I have not had a drink in more than a couple decades, but that does not mean that I've not sprayed Binaca® (alcohol based breath spray) into my mouth. It just means that I am free from the boundaries of the law on booze and that I just dunna care for the drinky-drinky... no more.

♪♫ That ain't gonna rain on me, no more, no more, ain't gonna rain on me... ♪​

'That', meaning the law of booze and the AA 12-steps just doesn't govern me anymore because it has been replaced by a better more useful promise... The PROMISE that, "He whom the Son sets free is free indeed (and in deed is Free! ;- )"

 

[Sparkey]

I deal with LGBT

Thank you! That's the word that I was looking for!

goodness sugar coated gospel...

It certainly isn't the gospel of Jesus Christ reba..

tob

Neither was Paul saying that he was going to teach the Polytheistic Romans about their idol to the unknown god (so called)... it was a bait-and-switch thing

And if you are implying that the Holy Spirit may not lead me in a way that is different than you? Hmmmm.... little do you know, right? We are all being jointly fitted together... and the invitation to the wedding is being delivered to the gutter rats, even to those like me! Or, if you'd rather, to those who are like the guy I used to be... b/c "IF He CAN," and if He IS to make straight the paths in me? Then certainly He can in anybody. That's what Paul said too, check it and see...

♪♫"I'm hot-blooded, check it and see..."​

But I prefer the word, "Zealot" to being called hot-blooded. Zealous for the house of God. Zealous for prayer. And it's Jesus who is not willing. NOT WILLING(!) that any should perish, but that all whom are given to Him should come for mercy. For Undeserved favor. To become the very House of God, whom we serve.

Yes, I agree they must needs do an 180° About-Face spin around and go Toward God, and not away, but that's not under dispute. But know this well: God calls whom He will. Seriously. He is not only holy, Holy, HOLY, he is also Sovereign and will do as He please.

And if you are afraid of a newborn christian who has and is and will be departing sin? Then do not look in the mirror, for of that who is afraid of such, James rightly declared, the James 1:23-24 declaration -- but we are not of that ILK - no. We look into the law of liberty, no, not so that we may sin and stumble our brothers, but so that we may understand better who our King is. He is the Prince of Peace, and He left His peace for us. We are able to go with whomever will and make converts into fishers of men. Notice that easy to remember 1-2-3 James, verse? It's almost like we're being taught something, right?

OH! And by the say, "Greetings TOB, Welcome, my friend!! *Big Smile* Good to see you.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm proud of you LTD.
The one thing that stands out to me in posts that are against attending is that they express the view that you will be showing approval.

Well, just who are they concerned will judge you as "approving?" Certainly not God, because He already knows your thoughts. So, that seems to only leave "man" that they would be concerned about. (Isn't there a verse or two about us not having a fear of man?)

Read my signature.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I didn't say it was the case, I said "if that was the case."

If it is the case that Joel (or any other Bible teacher) preach a false gospel or an incomplete gospel or other doctrine which contradicts Christian belief, and leads many people astray, how would God approve of the few that perhaps manage to find true salvation? It sure wouldn't be through the erroneous teachings but the grace of God. I'm not sure how you can justify that even one being saved would be honourable to God when countless others won't be saved because of those very same teachings.

How can I answer an "if"?
I don't know the answer to "if".

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And just how is going to a gay wedding going to lead people to Christ when it implies that they are okay in their sin, that God approves of something that the Bible makes very clear he does not approve of? It may lead people to a version of Christ but likely not the biblical Christ, unless you plan to start preaching Jesus at the wedding which probably wouldn't go over very well.

You don't know what it implies.
You've never been to one to find out.

 

[Sparkey]

If it is the case that Joel (or any other Bible teacher) preach a false gospel or an incomplete gospel

How can I answer an "if"?
I don't know the answer to "if".

In my cybersecurity classes and in computer programming geek language, you just simply do NOT read past the false 'IF Conditional' -- as in 'IF this... THEN that... " Yeah, the 'IF conditional,' as in "If you love me, obey me." Which, hopefully isn't false in the utmost sense... but it may be false, but I would not know this, except for me. And I do try, but for me? It's false, sadly. I don't obey as I am called to, not yet, but I will because I have 'axed' (slang for 'have asked') God to Make-it-Happen and He is my "Cause it to Happen God," but I know that does not eval to False in your case, but that this is true for each person gathered here too (even me who is also in Gathered-in-Grace, that is).

View attachment 7320 ​

If something evaluates to false (ie, the "incomplete gospel") impossibility - for only Jesus spoke the Complete good news, because unto Him was given to speak, and not even Paul did that, he just re-enforced everything that Jesus said (to him) as given, but to answer a Falsified IF Conditional? You merely point out that it is a false and incomplete fictional requirement that God does not require, not even for a part-time Moderator or to Moshe (see sermon, "Moses Misses the Mark", too).

But be like the computer program that refuses to read past the falsified test point. IF it is false, do not read what follows especially if what fallows is fallow, right? We are never required to preach complete.... just imagine what would happen if there was such a thing, and if the Law of Incomplete Gospel were written to my heart. I'm already encumbered by being too VERBOSE already. YIKES!

As you know, 'Verbose' just means "using more words than are needed."

... RING, ring, ring --- phone call... one moment.... processing.​

​

Okay, there's an example. I just answered the phone and...

When I was attending college for my first degree, I met a woman in a Business Class (not my Business Law class, just Business in General). And I had fun, because she was bus-bound and didn't have a car, so that was all the excuse that was needed for me to jump on the motorcycle and ride about with her as my seat baggage (biker term == or derived from a biker term that I can't say out loud here) -- but it was fun for me. And it turns out, she claims Jesus as her savior, BUT and this is a big BUTT, --- she was a fornicator.

So what did I do? I prayed. And it turns out that I do have permission to speak to her. But not to go about 'fellowshopping' for fellowship-friends who openly declare Jesus but remain in sin... but just for her only. 'Special exemption' like from the pope or something.

But then add to that, the fact that she once described herself to me as "kinky," and a sister-in-the-LORD (whom also fellowships here on our forum, and I won't mention her initials but her name is "Dances_on_Air" or something like that, *wink*) cautioned, "I'd suggest that she has set her designs on you..." (or something to similar effect), and you may not know that I am very skittish and cautious, and frankly scared of that king of thing, because you don't know me that well, is why.... So when our fellowship dropped (me and thee, O kinky one) I did not, and would not(!) and frankly, 'could not' pursue for fear of giving the wrong idea. For I am rightly constrained even when i am given such liberty so as to seemingly go against a well given law... Rightly constrained and commanded also... commanded "HALT" very, very well.

But recently we bumped into each other accidentally and I was finally able to speak to her about the Woman at the Well and about adultery; because she is now engaged to be married... so I can preach about fidelity and teach about being faithful to Jesus and what holiness is, both openly and without fear of rejection, for her and for me to depart from all sin --and I can mention that she has a right to his body (her future husband-to-be, and speak secrets by way of analogy and sing the Song of the Sparrow into her very heart) and he (her husband to be) to hers, because of the wisdom of God who declares the end from the beginning... but long story short? She is going to be working at a temp job at the FAIR and I'll trot on down (on the motorcycle) as an eager to serve puppy but there is absolutely no danger that anything untoward will conspire to inspire lust between us. Her kind of "kinky" is to become the submissive, not the other way around, so if she wants to, I'm in very little danger, as I am very clear, nobody gets to serve me. Not really. I'm only there to serve God. Whew! Sometimes even the simple things are difficult to say. In this case, it took years and one of them spent was quiet silence and frequent prayer...​

But my point? It is that God protects me and only now am I able to preach the more complete good news!

I adore Him and all His ways! And I know you do too, so please do not go into a bar if you are tempted to drink and know that the only safe route to witness to a fornicator is from afar and be ready to run. As I will. Pray for me, please. I love going in the Authority of the Name of Jesus and with the Prayers of the Saints. Sparrow is going to the Fair tonight, and I'll listen in to the Grandstands for the Free music too! And I'll pick up the seat baggage and deliver her to Him with all my might. So pray for your friend, going into the lion's den, yet again... I do so implore thee, pray for me, for I know what I do, and ask you, to pray that I may be kept well, my foot firmly held to holy ground where I stand, not in sand, but in defiance of any and all who defy my GOD. And I don't care one whit if she cries "RAPE" -- that would NEVER happen, not meaning the cry, but meaning only that I will never do such a thing, because I whammy willing to suffer for righteousness sake and if God wants me to go to prison? Then I already know what I will do there. I will reform from the inside out -- there is the possibility of another Mission from God on my heart involving Prison Reform and that might not be the easiest way, but it could be the most expedient and Your God has my full permission to do what He will to me. I care not~! I am His and His alone and only He may play the music and the song that fills me so, fills me in delight of HIM -- and it is His Joy over me that is my strength. He dances over me, does it matter if Man imprisons? No. Not really, and I have Paul to thank for that too... such an example of holiness that one... Bless God! I have only once resisted sin unto the shedding of my own blood, but that is not to say that I should now quit and rest on my laurels, but resist we shall ... and tests? and trials? They too shall come. Yet, by His very word, I stand. We stand. HE STANDS IN US! By His every word are we finding our mana from heaven, even now. Man does not live by bread alone.

I love Him. And I can never find enough ways to say it. But tell you what, do me a favor and the very next time you appear before Him - whisper something, tell Him that His Sparrow said, "OH! I do love You so!" and tell Him you heard me *sigh* even as I again openly declared my lvoe, both openly and unabashedly for I am truly His, bought and paid for, rendered in full and then some, but not as as much "His" and owned by Him as I hope to be.... that is yet to be written into me, by Him whom you love.

 

[Free]

I find it quite sad and disappointing that a number of posters are not reasoning through what I have been saying but instead are making certain assumptions and then either arguing to points I am not making or arguing to points that have no real bearing on the subject matter at hand.

Going to a gay wedding seems to imply--I don't see how it can't--that one approves and celebrates, with the wedding couple and other guests, that gay marriage is okay and even good, that it is something worth celebrating. But that is a clear contradiction with Scripture. It also really seems quite contradictory to say that one disapproves of gay marriage or that churches aren't Christian that perform such marriages, but then believe that it is okay as a Christian to attend a gay marriage.

Now please note that this has absolutely nothing to do with having homosexual friends--eating with them, having them in your house, etc.--or talking to homosexuals at work or on the street. Those are not moral issues. Gay marriage is a moral issue.

If it is true that by being a Christian and going to a gay marriage implies that that Christian supports such unbiblical unions, then that is not at all showing God's love or grace as it tells those who are aware that they are okay where they are, that God also supports gay marriage and the homosexual lifestyle.

 

[Free]

How can I answer an "if"?
I don't know the answer to "if".

People answer "if" questions all the time. But of course you can answer an "if" question, you did so in your initial statement to which I was responding: "If just one person gets saved in Joel Osteen's ministry, that pleasing aroma will go all the way up to heaven and God will bless Joel for his efforts."

So how about those answers?

You don't know what it implies.
You've never been to one to find out.

I don't have to go to find out. The whole point of going to a wedding is to celebrate the marriage of the "bride and groom" and show support.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Now please note that this has absolutely nothing to do with having homosexual friends--eating with them, having them in your house, etc.--or talking to homosexuals at work or on the street. Those are not moral issues. Gay marriage is a moral issue.

Jesus would've showed up, anywhere. He didn't wait for the people to become holy, before he was there. He showed up and then they became Holy.

There are many moral issues that plague us and lack of love is the top moral issue.

 

[Willie T]

I find it quite sad and disappointing that a number of posters are not reasoning through what I have been saying but instead are making certain assumptions and then either arguing to points I am not making or arguing to points that have no real bearing on the subject matter at hand.

Going to a gay wedding seems to imply--I don't see how it can't--that one approves and celebrates, with the wedding couple and other guests, that gay marriage is okay and even good, that it is something worth celebrating. But that is a clear contradiction with Scripture. It also really seems quite contradictory to say that one disapproves of gay marriage or that churches aren't Christian that perform such marriages, but then believe that it is okay as a Christian to attend a gay marriage.

Now please note that this has absolutely nothing to do with having homosexual friends--eating with them, having them in your house, etc.--or talking to homosexuals at work or on the street. Those are not moral issues. Gay marriage is a moral issue.

If it is true that by being a Christian and going to a gay marriage implies that that Christian supports such unbiblical unions, then that is not at all showing God's love or grace as it tells those who are aware that they are okay where they are, that God also supports gay marriage and the homosexual lifestyle.

This is pretty much what Simon said (thought) about Jesus when the prostitute was washing His feet with her hair.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

People answer "if" questions all the time. But of course you can answer an "if" question, you did so in your initial statement to which I was responding: "If just one person gets saved in Joel Osteen's ministry, that pleasing aroma will go all the way up to heaven and God will bless Joel for his efforts."

So how about those answers?


I don't have to go to find out. The whole point of going to a wedding is to celebrate the marriage of the "bride and groom" and show support.

Let's see...

"If" I answer his questions, he'll just put me down and tell me how wrong I am.
"If" I don't answer his questions, he'll say I'm evading him.
"If" I just ignore him, maybe he'll just go away.....

What to do, what to do.....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus preached the gospel and taught the truth when he congregated with publicans and sinners. Are all of you going to do that? I'm betting, no.

 

[Sparkey]

Going to a gay wedding seems to imply--I don't see how it can't

I know that you are very literal. And I know that when you are not? It is for very good reason. I can agree with you even when we don't exactly see eye-to-eye and I hope that this is mutual, in fact, I know it is. And I won't try to insult you here, but you say, "It seems to," and I can agree. You have not said that it does imply but you have indeed said that it seems [to you] that it does imply [to your way of thinking] that very meaning that you have so carefully laid out for us as you have already said.

I can not argue with you on that, neither am I inclined to do so. You know that I love you, and I know that you don't need my public statement to that effect.

You are the authority, the only authority that can rightly say who you are and how you feel. You say that it seems that way, that it seems to imply (to you) a certain approval. It is certain that this is what you say. I can quote you, but you don't need that. Everybody here may read for themselves. But...

But... (there's that little three letter word, right?)

But I can tell you that I went to a farce of a wedding, once. It was my stupid son's wedding. He's not stupid. He is rather brilliant, in his own stupid way. And if he heard me say that to everybody? To all Christians on this forum? I doubt he would put up much of an argument because he is also my beloved son! Very much loved and it has poured out of me and showered him from my overflow often and he knows where he was watered again and again... and he knows it, just as I know he loves me (agape's me) deeply. Like a son should. I am proud of my baby even now that he is becoming a man. He's my almost 30 year-old baby and that will never change. Hear my daddy's heart. Know what I got that? You do know. It's not a question. It's from HIM whom you love. None other.

But the stupid wedding that I attended? It was not done on purpose that way, but the celebrant was a minister who was "ordained" (so called) from online source. The stupid state that I live in recognizes such as 'ministers'. And to top it off? Part of their 'wedding vow' was to quote a cartoon character, "To Infinity and Beyond..." ---> Yes, they quoted stupid Buzz Light-year. My grandchildren (born out of wedlock) were there, at the wedding, in attendance. They are not stupid. They are precious and gifts from God directly given. But the wedding? It was a sham. I kept my mouth shut to bide my time. They bought matching tennis shoes. Oh my! My son chose the place (the park) because they had a different park, a skate-park nearby. He took his skateboard with him to the wedding and to the honeymoon on Orcas Island, WA. Because he wanted to go skate-boarding. And he dinged himself up pretty good while skate-boarding but not enough to call off the wedding, thank God.

My attendance did not imply my approval, not to anybody who knows me, that is. It sourly did not... oops? Did I say "sourly" -- that may have described my disposition (at the time) but I should have said "surely" instead. It surely did not imply any grouch oops? I meant, 'It did not imply andy such thing, Frank...' I mean, Surely (Shirley?) I can be Frank (frank) with you, right? Or if you'd rather, I'll be sparrow... all is good. (it's an old routine and I have slaughtered it well, have I not?)

Spoiler: More of the same... SPOIKER alert...

In fact, I pretended that it did not hurt me to see how much my son had black-slidden. Yeah, I know that I typo'd that one. I read every single word that I write, but these days? I'm the only one I do that for. You? Yeah, I used to read every word for more than me, that was way back when, when we co-modded together, Free, but I am not called to this in any leadership position or capacity any more today. Frankly? I'm okay with that. No offense. But I do miss you. I do.

And that's the same for my son at the time of his wedding (so called). The celebrant was female, she was nice enough, the couple said their intimate (and insider joke) vows to each other and your sparrow stood silent as he grimaced inwardly only. He (neither my son, nor me) was not touched by the Spirit Holy during the time of this wedding; that came later. Some nuts are harder than others to crack. He's a nut that fell close to the tree. He's like me.

So now? Did I imply that getting ordained online is the same as being ordained from an anointed Bible College? Or from any other "real" authority? Did I say that it was okay for females to be ordained? Did I imply that I think that's a God given boundary? I did? You're right. I did imply that. It is what I think, but not because men are any better intrinsically than women. It's just like what God has said. One was created first. Let's do things in order, shall we? Whose order? His, of course. Why do you call God by the personal male pronoun? Because truly He is first. Man came first. Male = 'his'. To me? It's that easy.

Did I say that it was okay to quote Buzz Light-year as an authoritative source (the only quoted source) for wedding vows? I attended my son's wedding and I didn't do drama, but I thought about it before that thought was summarily dismissed. Why? Because that stuff was between my fully grown and out of my house (I'm an empty-nest-er now). That was my youngest son, the one who I raised as a single dad since the time when his mother left us, one week before his third birthday.

My beloved son. I didn't know then that he would be sent to prison soon, didn't know that there, while in Larch (SW Washington State) the LORD would touch my boy again, didn't know that the heart that I witnessed when he was about 7, when he came and asked, "Dad? May I give my heart to Jesus?" and his big eyes, looking at me? And I watched as that heart, gave himself in full innocence to our Savior... It was he who was married by a Justice of the Peace, and then later, at the 'wedding' that I attended, not knowing it was his "second marriage, to the same woman"-- I didn't know! So it was good (I found out) that I spared him the drama. Good that I shut my mouth, or that the Lord shut it for me -- because who would want drama from her new father-in-law?

But what happened with me and my son? It was prayerfully and carefully done.

But I did not condone. I just waited until the right moment. It was only a year or two that my re-dedicated Christian boy gave his heart back to Jesus, while in Jail. And one of the biggest secrets that my boy has shared with me, about his re-dedicated heart and the thrill? Was that the Holy Spirit showed him the scripture that has become his favorite! Here you are:

Read now, the context of 1 Cor 7:14. About unbelieving spouse. That's what my son was shown while in jail, while in the spirit, seeking with all his might. And? My silence was the tiniest part of all that, because my silence at their sham of a wedding, prevented bridges being burnt b/w father and son. Believe me, I was tempted but held my peace and I blame your God for that little bit of wisdom.

Does my action, my attendance do more than show love? I ask you. Tell me. You who are rightly concerned about these things because I have taken pains to show you as well as I am able. I have worked in you, as you have in me. Guard me my heart, for I am yours! No need to reply here. In your heart is where it matters, and your Father in Heaven sees you better than I ever will. So silent is fine, and sometimes? It may be best. It does seem to imply that you agree with all, perhaps? but there is no demand that I can place on you to make you, to force you to reply.

Everybody here knows that IF I SAY, for instance, "ONE (1) plus (+) One (2) == 666" and you don't reply to correct me? Then it's all on me. There is no demand that I can place by my wrong doing, except you may want to yell out if you see danger coming! That's your duty to me, as a friend in a high position, if you see danger? Yell out. Shout from your watch-tower. "SPARROW! 10,000 Soldiers are a coming to kill us one and all! Watch out! Run!"

But after you completed and fulfilled your duty to warn (and only if I am really in danger of harm, should you not shout)? Then your blood guilt is absolved by the performance of your duty, you may climb down in good conscious and flee. You don't have to slay 10,000 for me. Heck, you, at best, may only turn 1,000. It takes two of us (properly joined) to turn 10k. I think you may have heard this before, yes?

But no need to reply. Your silence does not imply... it does not indicate compliance either. CUL8R... Sparrow