TRUE HOLINESS

[George Muller]

first he claimed he "never" did any of these things,

Which things.

You accuse me of sinning at things.

Then you say those who are under grace walk in the Spirit and are not under the law.

Which is it.

If you say I sin, what sin do you accuse me of George.

I don't practice any sin.

I don't do any of the sins of Galatians 5.

What I am guilty of is not Loving God the way He deserves.

What I am guilty of is not loving others the way God does.

Therefore I am guilty of all the whole law and deserve eternal condemnation.


JLB

Now you say you don't "do" any of these things? Ever? For you made that claim before and then changed it to "practice" and said that was the "key" term. Which sounds to me as if you are just excusing away your own flesh, by playing games with words. "you don't do it as much as others" is not the biblical standard. "Comparing themselves amongst themselves" in itself is evidence of carnal religion and those who do such things cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[George Muller]

Well Jethro, It is my calling to run the legalist out of the Lords church, not make them comfortable and to allow them to promote doctrines of error. Lets be honest, if you where to come into a grace group you would attempt to overturn the truth through your legalist doctrines. Of course I would drive you from the flock, if you in any way attempted to teach the things you promote on this forum? A little ridicule of ones doctrines will seem a small thing to those who pervert the gospel, on judgment Day. For the wrath of God will be against those who cause others to stumble.

George, when a person thinks that the Law of sin and death of Romans 8 is the 10 commandments, they definatly don't know the law, and have no buisness trying to teach what Romans 7 means.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


The law of sin and death was seen in the garden when death entered to all men because of Adams sin of disobedience/unbelief.

The law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

JLB

of course it is;
Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

For one to try to deny this clear and evident truth, shows how "free-will" is a blinding and prideful religion.

The sin that spread to all humans was do not eat of the tree...

He disobeyed God's Voice.

This was not written and engraved on stones.

The law of sin and death was seen in the garden.

You are confusing the law of sin and death with the law of Moses.

Next I guess you will try to tell us the law of gravity is also the ten commandments.

The law of sin and death is what Lucifer violated that got him thrown out of heaven.


JLB

So what point do you think your making? Yes, "sin" came by the tree of Knowledge of good and evil, it is in the flesh of all men. The law (Ten Commandments) was to make this condition known, but has no power to deliver the flesh from sin, in fact it produces sinful lust in the flesh. So one cannot be delivered from sin until they are delivered from the law- "For the strength of sin, is the law" For a believer to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the "the law of sin and death", for a believer to turn from grace back to the law IS THE GREATEST BIBLICAL SIN.

 

[George Muller]

I seen no point, but only that you attempted to take a scripture out of its context. And indeed you seemed to boast in your knowledge of the law, now I boast in nothing but in Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, and I account that mans knowledge and works of law are but "dung". So if you have point? Make it.

I don't know if it will do any good, but let me try to explain the point I was making with an analogy. We've all been to school, so this should be easy to understand...

Before you learned algebra, you had to learn how to multiply and divide. Before you learned multiplication and division, you had to learn how to add and subtract. Before you learned addition and subtraction, you had to learn how to count. If a person never learns how to count, you can still try to explain algebra to him, and he may even think he understands it, but he will never truly comprehend what algebra is about and how to use it. You can't start with something as advanced as algebra without first learning the basics. You have to learn things in the right order if you are going to truly understand them. This applies to areas other than math. You have to learn the alphabet before you can write a novel. You have to learn basic mechanics before you can design a space station. You have to walk before you can run.

The same applies to the Bible. You can't start with the most advanced things in Scripture. You have to start with the basics. The foundation on which the rest of the Bible is built is the law (i.e. the books of Moses). If you don't understand the basics of the law, then you won't properly understand the advanced things Paul writes about.

Oh... BTW... I looked back at our previous posts, and you were the one that posted Gal. 5:16 without any context at all. I was attempting to put it in context with the rest of what Paul wrote.

First biblical knowledge and growth is not based upon the wisdom of this world, it is the exact opposite. One must become a fool to be made wise, and the Cross is the point of all true wisdom. So "wisdom" is a product of humility and rejection of mans wisdom. One must become weak to be made strong. And again I see that you have made no point other than to again boast in yourself, I boast in the Cross and my own foolishness and weakness, and the wisdom I have is that wisdom God gives to the humble, it cannot be defeated.

 

[George Muller]

But one cannot walk in the Spirit until they are set-free from the law, by the grace of Christ. Now what Paul is saying is that we are "New Creations" we have died to the "old man" and must walk in the truth of Christ to walk in "life".

Would you say, that "walking in the Spirit" is the process of renewing one's mind to come into agreement with the Spirit? And that sanctification, for salvation is a done deal? And that there are believers who do not KNOW that they are justified and sanctified by His righteousness and His holiness?

I would say in part, the "renewing" is to bring the "old" carnal mind into agreement with the truth of who we are as "New" Spiritual Creations. All by faith in the Word, not the letter but the Spirit. Legalism works against the "renewed" mind, for legalism is the striving of mans religion to justify the flesh. "walking in the Spirit" is to see the flesh judged with Christ and as the object to be put to death by His Cross as one walks in the Spirit, by faith.

The written Word is how we know what to put to death. It is not legalism to know what to put to death--what to resist by the Spirit--by reading it in the Bible. That is NOT the definition of legalism.

Sorry the "written" word has no power, it is that the Word is Spirit and truth that the scriptures have there power. A bible is used by all sorts of evil groups, the Pharisees where trained in the written word, but where "children of the devil" Hitler quoted scripture, to suit his purpose. No those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Legalism- is death, that which is not from the Spirit is death.

 

[George Muller]

God doesn't change and His standards don't change. If He declared something to be sinful 3500 years ago, then it's still sinful today. If He declared something to be righteous 3500 years ago, it's still righteous today. That's what I mean when I say "God's standard of righteousness doesn't change".

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Have You heard of the New Covenant?

Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Funny how those who love to boast in themselves are unable to read and believe what God has had written in plain words. - It will be better for the most determined sinner on Judgment Day, than those who intentionally reject the "Spirit of Grace"

 

[JLB]

first he claimed he "never" did any of these things,

Which things.

You accuse me of sinning at things.

Then you say those who are under grace walk in the Spirit and are not under the law.

Which is it.

If you say I sin, what sin do you accuse me of George.

I don't practice any sin.

I don't do any of the sins of Galatians 5.

What I am guilty of is not Loving God the way He deserves.

What I am guilty of is not loving others the way God does.

Therefore I am guilty of all the whole law and deserve eternal condemnation.


JLB

Now you say you don't "do" any of these things? Ever? For you made that claim before and then changed it to "practice" and said that was the "key" term. Which sounds to me as if you are just excusing away your own flesh, by playing games with words. "you don't do it as much as others" is not the biblical standard. "Comparing themselves amongst themselves" in itself is evidence of carnal religion and those who do such things cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

You don't like being shown from the word what a hypocrite you really are, so you attack me with your twisting accusations.

This is typical of those who make the grace of God a license to sin.

Again what sin do you accuse me of George?




JLB

 

[JLB]

of course it is;
Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

For one to try to deny this clear and evident truth, shows how "free-will" is a blinding and prideful religion.

The sin that spread to all humans was do not eat of the tree...

He disobeyed God's Voice.

This was not written and engraved on stones.

The law of sin and death was seen in the garden.

You are confusing the law of sin and death with the law of Moses.

Next I guess you will try to tell us the law of gravity is also the ten commandments.

The law of sin and death is what Lucifer violated that got him thrown out of heaven.


JLB

So what point do you think your making? Yes, "sin" came by the tree of Knowledge of good and evil, it is in the flesh of all men. The law (Ten Commandments) was to make this condition known, but has no power to deliver the flesh from sin, in fact it produces sinful lust in the flesh. So one cannot be delivered from sin until they are delivered from the law- "For the strength of sin, is the law" For a believer to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the "the law of sin and death", for a believer to turn from grace back to the law IS THE GREATEST BIBLICAL SIN.

The point I am making is the law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

The law of sin and death of Romans 7 is what Adam transgressed in the garden, by which death was spread to all mankind.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22

That is not the 10 commandment.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

the law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

The 10 commandments is the law of God, not the law of sin and death.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry the "written" word has no power,

He said the written word is how we know what to put to death...

Funny how those who love to boast in themselves are unable to read and believe what God has had written in plain words.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would say in part, the "renewing" is to bring the "old" carnal mind into agreement with the truth of who we are as "New" Spiritual Creations. All by faith in the Word, not the letter but the Spirit. Legalism works against the "renewed" mind, for legalism is the striving of mans religion to justify the flesh. "walking in the Spirit" is to see the flesh judged with Christ and as the object to be put to death by His Cross as one walks in the Spirit, by faith.

The written Word is how we know what to put to death. It is not legalism to know what to put to death--what to resist by the Spirit--by reading it in the Bible. That is NOT the definition of legalism.

Sorry the "written" word has no power, it is that the Word is Spirit and truth that the scriptures have there power.

We all know this. The argument that is being thrown down here is your contention that simply reading the Word and then doing it (by the Spirit) is exactly equivalent to legalism. That is NOT legalism.

Legalism is doing the righteous requirements of the law (and more) in the hope of earning a justification that can ONLY come from faith in the blood of Christ. For it is only the blood of Christ that can wipe away unrighteousness. You can't do that by doing the expected and required obediences of the (moral) law. Those obediences are the expected and obligatory result of having been justified by faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin. But just reading the Word to learn what God's righteousness looks like--no, that is not legalism.

A bible is used by all sorts of evil groups, the Pharisees where trained in the written word, but where "children of the devil" Hitler quoted scripture, to suit his purpose.

Fringe charismatic groups use it too. You've been using scripture too. But somehow that's okay for you?

The ironic thing about your argument is, knowing what the Bible says is how these groups that UN-rightly divide and twist the Word of God are identified. We'd be in a very scary church if we did not have the written Word that God inhabits by his Spirit for those who believe to expose those who mishandle God's truths. The Bible is how I know that what you say legalism is is wrong.

No those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Legalism- is death, that which is not from the Spirit is death.

The law reveals us to be sinners. That is how it puts us to death. But the Bible plainly says that after we are put to death by the law (because we are sinners, not because the holy, righteous, and good law is bad) we then 'uphold the law' by the Spirit of God. Legalism is NOT reading the Word of God and then upholding it through the ministry of the Spirit of God. That's absurd.

Legalism is reading the Word and then doing it in the hope of earning that which only faith in the blood of Christ can give--a declaration of rigtheousness, aka 'justification'. Righteousness is attained by having your sins removed through forgiveness, not removed through the effort of doing righteous things. That is impossible to do. That is what Paul's argument is ALL about. He's not arguing that walking by the Spirit (oh, how that phrase gets abused!) means you do not, and should not, read the law of Moses, and then seek to uphold it's righteous (moral) requirements, relying solely on the voice of the Spirit to tell you what, and what not, to do. That's charismatic hogwash.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry the "written" word has no power,

He said the written word is how we know what to put to death...

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NIV)

Does George think Paul is talking about a NT that hasn't even been written yet?

Funny how those who love to boast in themselves are unable to read and believe what God has had written in plain words.

JLB

I see the irony......or is that hypocrisy?

 

[JLB]

I see the irony......or is that hypocrisy?

 

[TOG]

What did God command Noah to do? Because he did what God commanded him to do, his faith was shown to be a living faith. What did God command Abraham to do? Because Abraham obeyed what God commanded him to do, his faith was shown to be a living faith.

If you go back to post #373, you'll see that I've allready addressed this.

It seems to me that if, as I said, God's standard of righteousness hasn't changed in the 3500 or so years since Moses' time, then it's logical to assume that it hadn't changed for the previous 400 or so years since Abraham.

God's standard has never changed. He commanded Noah, Abraham and others to do the same things he commanded Moses to do, the difference was that they didn't write it down in any form we still have today. Let's look at a few examples that show this.

The Sabbath command is first recorded in Ex. 20:8, but if we look back to Ex. 16, we see this:

On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers each. And when all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, he said to them, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’†(Ex. 16:22-23 ESV)
​

The people already knew they weren't supposed to work on the Sabbath, before God gave the 10 commandments.

The dietary laws weren't recorded until Lev. 11, but look what God says to Noah:

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation. Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth. (Gen. 7:1-3 ESV)
​

Noah knew about clean and unclean animals.

We can go even further back than that. The various regulations on how to offer a proper sacrifice are given in Leviticus. But if we go all the way back to Gen. 4, we see that Cain and Abel already knew how to offer proper sacrifices. Able obeyed what God had told them about sacrifices, but Cain didn't. Neither one of them wrote it down for us to read.

When talking about Cain and Abel, most people concentrate on the murder. But there's a part that comes right after the sacrifices that most people seem to overlook.

In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.†(Gen. 4:3-7 ESV)
​

God spoke to Cain about sin as if he already knew what that meant. Yet, in I John 3:4, we are told that it is the law given at Mt. Sinai that defines what sin is. How can this be? Simple. God had already given Cain and the others alive at that time a moral code to live by. Since it wasn't written down, the only thing we know about that code is that it prohibited murder and defined what a proper sacrifice looks like. From the use of the word "sin" above, we may deduce that it also included other laws. Since God never changes and His standards never change, that law that He gave to Cain cannot have contradicted the law He gave on Mt. Sinai. God commanded Cain to obey the same moral code He commanded Moses to follow. They all obeyed the same commandments.

 

[TOG]

Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. Without defining obedience we don't know what that is? Even the Centurion knew what that was. These play on words, and having to examine things and discuses them because we might find loop holes. This is the World, for a lie is no longer a lie, and obedience can mean anything.

Thank you for making my point. The centurion didn't have a vague, undefined "obedience". There was a very specific hierarchy in place in the Roman military, just as there is in military forces today. Each member of the military obeys the orders of those that have a higher rank than he does. The centurion knew exactly who to obey.

Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Exactly. She didn't just tell them to obey something vague or undefined. She told them exactly who to obey.

....................I hear the Word obey God, I know exactly what that means, it means be where your suppose to be, doing what He told you to do.

Precisely what I've been saying. I read God's Word, I know what it means and I obey it.

 

[TOG]

First biblical knowledge and growth is not based upon the wisdom of this world, it is the exact opposite. One must become a fool to be made wise, and the Cross is the point of all true wisdom. So "wisdom" is a product of humility and rejection of mans wisdom. One must become weak to be made strong. And again I see that you have made no point other than to again boast in yourself, I boast in the Cross and my own foolishness and weakness, and the wisdom I have is that wisdom God gives to the humble, it cannot be defeated.

I could not have made my point any clearer, and there is nothing in that post that can be interpreted as boasting of any kind. The only thing that can't be defeated here is a closed mind that refuses to see what God clearly says in His word. That's not something you should be boasting about.

 

[TOG]

Have You heard of the New Covenant?

Have your read what it actually says? I guess you must have, since you quoted it. But have you stopped and tried to understand what it means? I'm not as sure about that, so let's take a closer look.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer. 31:33-34 ESV)
​

This is God speaking through the prophet Jeremiah foretelling the New Covenant. He makes a reference to "my law". Can you show me any place in the Bible where that phrase, spoken by God Himself, refers to anything other than the law given on Mt. Sinai?

 

[JLB]

What did God command Noah to do? Because he did what God commanded him to do, his faith was shown to be a living faith. What did God command Abraham to do? Because Abraham obeyed what God commanded him to do, his faith was shown to be a living faith.

If you go back to post #373, you'll see that I've allready addressed this.

It seems to me that if, as I said, God's standard of righteousness hasn't changed in the 3500 or so years since Moses' time, then it's logical to assume that it hadn't changed for the previous 400 or so years since Abraham.

God's standard has never changed. He commanded Noah, Abraham and others to do the same things he commanded Moses to do, the difference was that they didn't write it down in any form we still have today. Let's look at a few examples that show this.

The Sabbath command is first recorded in Ex. 20:8, but if we look back to Ex. 16, we see this:

On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers each. And when all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, he said to them, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’” (Ex. 16:22-23 ESV)
​

The people already knew they weren't supposed to work on the Sabbath, before God gave the 10 commandments.

The dietary laws weren't recorded until Lev. 11, but look what God says to Noah:

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation. Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth. (Gen. 7:1-3 ESV)
​

Noah knew about clean and unclean animals.

We can go even further back than that. The various regulations on how to offer a proper sacrifice are given in Leviticus. But if we go all the way back to Gen. 4, we see that Cain and Abel already knew how to offer proper sacrifices. Able obeyed what God had told them about sacrifices, but Cain didn't. Neither one of them wrote it down for us to read.

When talking about Cain and Abel, most people concentrate on the murder. But there's a part that comes right after the sacrifices that most people seem to overlook.

In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” (Gen. 4:3-7 ESV)
​

God spoke to Cain about sin as if he already knew what that meant. Yet, in I John 3:4, we are told that it is the law given at Mt. Sinai that defines what sin is. How can this be? Simple. God had already given Cain and the others alive at that time a moral code to live by. Since it wasn't written down, the only thing we know about that code is that it prohibited murder and defined what a proper sacrifice looks like. From the use of the word "sin" above, we may deduce that it also included other laws. Since God never changes and His standards never change, that law that He gave to Cain cannot have contradicted the law He gave on Mt. Sinai. God commanded Cain to obey the same moral code He commanded Moses to follow. They all obeyed the same commandments.

What Noah did was different from what Abraham did.

The common denominator of righteousness was obedience.

Not, as you say adhering to some unwritten set of rules.


JLB

 

[JLB]

haser

Have You heard of the New Covenant?

Have your read what it actually says? I guess you must have, since you quoted it. But have you stopped and tried to understand what it means? I'm not as sure about that, so let's take a closer look.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer. 31:33-34 ESV)
​

This is God speaking through the prophet Jeremiah foretelling the New Covenant. He makes a reference to "my law". Can you show me any place in the Bible where that phrase, spoken by God Himself, refers to anything other than the law given on Mt. Sinai?

Can you show me any place in the Bible where that phrase, spoken by God Himself, refers to anything other than the law given on Mt. Sinai?

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5

This was 430 years before the law of Moses.

The law was added...

Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1-6

His law is seen in Matthew 5


JLB

 

[TOG]

What Noah did was different from what Abraham did.

The common denominator of righteousness was obedience.

Not, as you say adhering to some unwritten set of rules. JLB

That doesn't make sense. You say that the common denominator was obedience, not adhering to a set of rulse. But that's exactly what the word "obedience" means - obeying or adhering to rules and commands. Dictionary.com puts it this way:

obey
verb (used with object)

1. to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of: to obey one's parents.
2. to comply with or follow (a command, restriction, wish, instruction, etc.).
3. (of things) to respond conformably in action to: The car obeyed the slightest touch of the steering wheel.
4. to submit or conform in action to (some guiding principle, impulse, one's conscience, etc.).

With this dictionary definition in mind, can you explain to me how you can obey without any rules or commands of any kind?

 

[TOG]

haser

Have You heard of the New Covenant?

Have your read what it actually says? I guess you must have, since you quoted it. But have you stopped and tried to understand what it means? I'm not as sure about that, so let's take a closer look.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer. 31:33-34 ESV)
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This is God speaking through the prophet Jeremiah foretelling the New Covenant. He makes a reference to "my law". Can you show me any place in the Bible where that phrase, spoken by God Himself, refers to anything other than the law given on Mt. Sinai?

Can you show me any place in the Bible where that phrase, spoken by God Himself, refers to anything other than the law given on Mt. Sinai?

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5

This was 430 years before the law of Moses.

I did a word search for the phrase "my law" on Bible Gateway, and it missed that one. Probably because I asked to to do an "exact phrase" search, which would rule out the plural form. However, that doesn't really change anything. Although it may seem trivial, there is actually an important difference between "my law" (singular) and "my laws" (plural).

The word "law" (singular) in this context can refer either to a single commandment or to the entirety of God's law as given through Moses. It is my belief, and is what I was saying before, that the phrase "my law", when spoken by God, always refers to the whole of God's law, as given through Moses.

The word "laws" (plural) can refer either to the whole of God's law as given through Moses or to a subset of those laws (as in the phrase "dietary laws").

Since they are different and can have different meanings, the two phrases are not directly comparable. It's like me asking you to show me a place where "my son" (singular) refers to anything other than one person, and you replying with a reference to "my sons" (plural) referring to many people. It's not the same.

What God said, through Jeremiah, that He would put on our hearts was "my law" (singular), not "my laws" (plural). It is my belief that it is the entire law given through Moses that He puts in our hearts. Let me restate and clarify my question:

Can you show me any verse in the Bible where "my law" (singular), spoken by God, means anything other than the entire law given through Moses?

But even if we do take Gen. 26:5 as an example of "my law" meaning something else, it still means "all the laws God had given up to that time", and all the laws God had given up to Jeremiah's time included the ones He gave through Moses, so it must be those laws He puts in our hearts.

 

[Brother Mike]

Precisely what I've been saying. I read God's Word, I know what it means and I obey it.

Right!!!

I don't think it's complicated though. We have God's Word, so we do our best to stay in line with the Word and grow and mature. We get more and more light as time goes on and God increases us in knowledge.

We also have the plan of God, which every single believer has being a body part. This is also important as we need to be in the place God told us to be. For example the Lord told me to move to Branson. That is not scripture, but He said go. I left everything, and came to Branson MO. He told us to buy a very nice car seat for someone, so we did. He told us to sow our 2K table and chair set, so we did and 9 years later get good reports that the table is still being used for bible studies.

So, we have the direction of the Holy Spirit in obedience as following Jesus the Head of the Church. We have the More sure Word of God which will never change and we also follow that.

Just do whatever we are told to do.

Holiness:

Just means to keep blameless before God.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holinesss in the fear of God.

The key word is "LET US CLEAN" This is our Job.

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Who puts on the new man? We do.

1Ti_2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

what happens if they don't continue in that? Child might not make it.

Whole lot of pages here, when the bible tells us what Holiness is. It's our job, not a gift, and not God's job to have holiness. Right standing with God is the free gift. (Righteousness)

Mike.