TRUE HOLINESS

[reba]

The "little small voice" is not the Holy Spirit pointing to the law of Moses. The Holy Spirit points to Christ crucified. The conscience of one who is under the law, is always in bondage to sin. The solution to covetousness is to be so filled with the knowledge of Gods blessings and promises that the things of this world have no effect upon the believer. Those who walk in the "law written upon the heart" do not envy the wealth of those in this world. Nor would a young man or woman go around lusting after the pleasures of this world, for their heart is set upon the pleasures of heaven

I never said anything about the law of Moses... This is what I had in mind the Words of Jesus
Mat_5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Are you saying you have no desires for the simple pleasures of this world? The love of a wife the sweetness of a Chocolate cake . The anger you show here in the forums is not heavenly. Justification takes many forms.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I've been following this whole thread.
This whole thing about legalism is a bit vague.
Can someone give some examples of legalism in the church today?
Is tithing legalism?

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

 

[farouk]

Legalism is not the problem in the church today. Hyper-grace is.

[MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION]:

Now I understand more some of the views which you have expressed elsewhere, if you don't think legalism is a problem, but so called hyper-grace.

I wouldn't call it too much grace, but licence, that is a problem.

Reading Ephesians chapters one and two, the true grace of God is a glorious thing; one can't rely too much on it.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

I wouldn't call it too much grace, but licence, that is a problem.

I would agree. When a preacher is preaching grace, as Paul did, they should be getting this question.
"Should we keep on sinning, that grace should abound?"
But because he knows this question will be there, he should be making it very clear, "Heaven forbid!"

imo, some are good at making the message clear, others are not.

 

[gr8grace]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

I like the term Hyper-grace. It comes a tiny bit closer to describing Gods Grace. It should be hyper Infinity Grace when it comes to God saving His creatures.

People who have coined the Phrase "hyper-grace" will always give the allusion that a "hyper-grace church" is a Church where the Pastor, with cig in mouth, has a bottle of Jack on the pulpit and a lady on each shoulder and the pews are filled with cussen, drunk, High married swingers.

I have yet to find this church.

If I only had 2 choices though.....If that pastor was teaching true bible doctrine, I would rather be in His church then some self righteous, legalistic,judgemental,religious Church.

 

[Deborah13]

I have yet to find this church.

If I only had 2 choices though.....If that pastor was teaching true bible doctrine, I would rather be in His church then some self righteous, legalistic,judgemental,religious Church.

LOL, I have yet to hear of this Church!

I think some of the ones that people may be referring to are not grace preachers at al,l but tiptoe through the tulips of life, preachers. They don't really teach much of anything, law or grace.

My favorite grace preachers teach a lot from the OT, tying together the types and shadows that all lead to our Savior.
I used to see the OT through the Law (Torah) as strict observation and doing of rules, now I see that grace and faith were always there. Jesus, is grace through faith revealed.

 

[Adullam]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

It is also called cheap grace. This stance has God as a candyman that favours certain people over others so that these spoiled ones can get away with anything they do. It is the opposite swing of the pendulum from legalism.


But God judges all with impartiality. All our gifts including the inner man who is Christ in us will be removed and WE ourselves will be judged AGAINST what we have been given. We who have received more will be judged harder than those who have been given less.

 

[Deborah13]

This stance has God as a candyman that favours certain people over others so that these spoiled ones can get away with anything they do.

I understand what you are saying. But are these Churches really teaching GRACE.

If you feel comfortable with it, can you give me the name of someone that I would know, or can read their website, to make a determination of their teaching this kind of grace?

Thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've been following this whole thread.
This whole thing about legalism is a bit vague.
Can someone give some examples of legalism in the church today?
Is tithing legalism?

Tithing? In and of itself. No, I don't think so. The mistake is thinking just because something is in the law, you see it there, and then seek to do it that you are somehow now a legalist on your way to hell.

Biblically, a legalist is someone who seeks to be justified (made righteous) by the works of the law, particularly external works of the law. Maybe Philippians 3 is the definitive place to know what legalism is:

"If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." (Philippians 3:4-6 NASB)

I think some versions translate it 'legalistic righteousness'. The legalist relies on the virtue of external law keeping to earn points with God (but misses what really does matter to God).

An example to illustrate the mindset of the legalist is a person who drives into the empty parking lot of an old abandoned building to check his oil but won't park in the handicapped space to do that (that would be breaking the law)...while he bawls his wife out on his cell phone for not telling him the car was low on oil before he took it out this morning.

Legalist leave the tell tale trail of not knowing what matters to God. They'll miss the intent and purpose of a rule, or law and 'legalistically' keep it for the sake of a scorecard kind of mentality regarding that law. And along the way trampling and hurting people's feelings completely oblivious to what really matters to God--character.

If Philippians 3 is, Biblically, where we know what legalism is, then perhaps Matthew 23:23-28 is the Biblical example of the legalist, and the traits that mark them. Clean on the outside, but full of dead men's bones on the inside, like a white washed tomb. Pretty to look at, and dedicated to the honor of the occupant, but with no life inside.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

Out of time this morning, but pre-marital sex, or gay marriage are examples. The thinking being that God can overlook those in grace because the people are in love and/or were born that way.

I have a more relevant example to what we've been discussing but I'm out of time this morning....

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

Out of time this morning, but pre-marital sex, or gay marriage are examples. The thinking being that God can overlook those in grace because the people are in love and/or were born that way.

I have a more relevant example to what we've been discussing but I'm out of time this morning....

True doctrine! But what comes next is the bottom/line? When this is all taught for truth, or is [KNOWN,] & then to come out in the [OPEN], it is then in violation to Gods WORD! No longer can it be said that we are to let the wheat + Tares grow together, for now it is seen to be FLAGRANT OPEN SIN, & is to be dealt with as such!

How else could we see Rev. 17:1-5 with [all] of these daughters united in all sin lumped together? Matt. 6:24

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

Out of time this morning, but pre-marital sex, or gay marriage are examples. The thinking being that God can overlook those in grace because the people are in love and/or were born that way.

I have a more relevant example to what we've been discussing but I'm out of time this morning....

What you gave me were sins that people commit, yes, and maybe because they misunderstand grace.
But what I was asking is what pastor, teaching, etc. do you know who teaches grace, that says these things are OK. I don't know of any. I know pastors who teach grace and radically, but not one of them condones sin or teaches that God overlooks them.

Are you referring to churches and denominations, who have accepted these behaviors? Because of the ones I know they are not Grace teachers.
I think people confuse, LIBERAL teachings, with Grace teachings. The Grace teachers that I am familiar with are not LIBERAL in what they view as sin. Or God overlooking sin.

 

[Deborah13]

it is then in violation to Gods WORD

Churches (not individuals) that teach LIBERAL teachings against the Word or condone sin are Not teaching Grace. Grace does not say it's OK to sin. That's just nonsense.

 

[reba]

I think people confuse, LIBERAL teachings, with Grace teachings. The Grace teachers that I am familiar with are not LIBERAL in what they view as sin. Or God overlooking sin.

My thoughts are ' they ' hide sin under liberalism calling it Grace. I do not believe Grace could be taught with out a strong teaching of OT history form the natural and spiritual sides. We would have no understanding of what He delivered us from. For some many today this is true way too often I have seen/heard the OT sidelined.

 

[Deborah13]

I think people confuse, LIBERAL teachings, with Grace teachings. The Grace teachers that I am familiar with are not LIBERAL in what they view as sin. Or God overlooking sin.

My thoughts are ' they ' hide sin under liberalism calling it Grace. I do not believe Grace could be taught with out a strong teaching of OT history form the natural and spiritual sides. We would have no understanding of what He delivered us from. For some many today this is true way too often I have seen/heard the OT sidelined.

I agree. A 'good' grace preacher will always be teaching from both. Comparing OT and NT. Pointing out Jesus in the OT, pointing out God's love for His people. Years ago, the OT to me was for 'those people' not NT people. We can't even really grasp the NT without the OT. We can't fully appreciate the Cross or the long-suffering of God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How about the Word of Faith movement.
Are they in any way legalists?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, and can someone give an example of hyper-grace, in the Church today?
Thanks

It is also called cheap grace. [...] It is the opposite swing of the pendulum from legalism.

Exactly.

Legalism doesn't extend grace far enough, if at all. Hyper-grace over extends it beyond what it was given to do...like when you hyper extend your elbow. 'Ouch!' The long arm of God's grace wasn't meant to extend beyond what God said it will extend to cover.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what I was asking is what pastor, teaching, etc. do you know who teaches grace, that says these things are OK.

Okay as far as what? Salvation?

I heard Charles Stanley says once you are saved you are forever and irretrievably saved no matter how deep into sin and unbelief you go. In effect saying there is no such thing as the trampling of grace to the destruction of the one who does that that Hebrews speaks about.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How about the Word of Faith movement.
Are they in any way legalists?

Prolly not, but I've have to think about it.

Actually, the truth that many of them abuse so badly is really quite sound.

I'd put them more into the abusers of grace category.