Understanding the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13)

[atpollard]

Similarily I think too often we stop short. We read that to be saved one must believe and we stop there but I have held the opinion that if I truly and unequivocally believe in Jesus as Lord I would without hesitation or doubt follow Him and to truly and completely follow Him would mean that I would obey Him in everything and if I obey Him truly and completely I will do what He says and if I truly and completely do what He says I will follow His commands which are to Love God and Love others and to do that means I will do good and show mercy.

... until we get a "like" button

 

[JLB]

Does Jesus saying they "believed" the word of God make you a little uncomfortable with this position. I like the "hear and not understand" version much better, but I have this stupid problem with needing to accept ALL scripture as God breathed, so the "believed" version needs to be taken into consideration as well.

Not stupid at all: "Believe" is the condition for being saved.

...lest they should believe and be saved.

Actually, believing all the way to fruitfulness is the result of hearing and understanding.

What these [fruitful ones] "understand" is: believing is the condition to being saved.
Those who understood, continued to believe, so that fruitfulness would result.

If I receive a new car full of fuel as a gift, and I "understand" that the condition for the car to fulfill it purpose to benefit me, is for me to continue to put fuel in it, because without fuel the car will not function, become dead: then I will continue to put fuel in my car that was given to me as a gift.

If I don't understand that I must continue to put fuel in my car that I received as a gift, then it will eventually die and become useless.

Believing is the condition by which we are saved.

Your life, the vehicle through which you express the eternal life within, runs on believing.

Fruitfulness results after a period of time.
Fruitfulness results from believing over a period of time.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where it becomes tricky is "... believe and be saved" (Luke 8:12) and "... believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).

It's not tricky to me, because I understand that believing is the condition for being saved; receiving eternal life.

Remember: Eternal life means knowing [being joined to] God. John 17:3

As long as we believe we will receive eternal life, salvation, or whatever promise God has made to us.

If the condition for being saved is removed, then how will the intended result occur?

If we understand that believing is the condition for being saved, then we will continue to believe; Always believing throughout our life.



What are your thoughts?


JLB

 

[atpollard]

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that is far from a foregone and irrefutable conclusion based JUST on the parable of the sower. If you approach the parable of the sower with that predisposition, the 'soils' will have one obvious and irrefutable meaning. However, if you approach the parable with a different predisposition, then the "soils" will have another and equally obvious and irrefutable meaning.

So I think that taking a VERY STRONG stand on Salvation based on the Parable of the Sower is building a house on unstable ground. We have been instructed that this is not another OSAS/OSNAS debate, but a focus on these verses. To really address this requires us to move away from the "soil" and into "What is saved?"

... Tell you what, Let's start that TOPIC right now somewhere else.

 

[JLB]

My thoughts are that is far from a foregone and irrefutable conclusion based JUST on the parable of the sower. If you approach the parable of the sower with that predisposition, the 'soils' will have one obvious and irrefutable meaning. However, if you approach the parable with a different predisposition, then the "soils" will have another and equally obvious and irrefutable meaning.

So I think that taking a VERY STRONG stand on Salvation based on the Parable of the Sower is building a house on unstable ground. We have been instructed that this is not another OSAS/OSNAS debate, but a focus on these verses. To really address this requires us to move away from the "soil" and into "What is saved?"

... Tell you what, Let's start that TOPIC right now somewhere else.

Our discussion is about the parable of the Sower, which is the topic of this thread: Understanding the Parable of the Sower

My post's describes these very things.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

It's not tricky to me, because I understand that believing is the condition for being saved; receiving eternal life.

Remember: Eternal life means knowing [being joined to] God. John 17:3

As long as we believe we will receive eternal life, salvation, or whatever promise God has made to us.

If the condition for being saved is removed, then how will the intended result occur?

If we understand that believing is the condition for being saved, then we will continue to believe; Always believing throughout our life.

"Believe" is the condition for being saved.

...lest they should believe and be saved.

Actually, believing all the way to fruitfulness is the result of hearing and understanding.

What these [fruitful ones] "understand" is: believing is the condition to being saved.
Those who understood, continued to believe, so that fruitfulness would result.

If I receive a new car full of fuel as a gift, and I "understand" that the condition for the car to fulfill it purpose to benefit me, is for me to continue to put fuel in it, because without fuel the car will not function, become dead: then I will continue to put fuel in my car that was given to me as a gift.

If I don't understand that I must continue to put fuel in my car that I received as a gift, then it will eventually die and become useless.

Believing is the condition by which we are saved.

Your life, the vehicle through which you express the eternal life within, runs on believing.

Fruitfulness results after a period of time.
Fruitfulness results from believing over a period of time.

As you can see, what the fruitful ones "understand" is that believing is the condition by which people are saved.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Our discussion is about the parable of the Sower, which is the topic of this thread: Understanding the Parable of the Sower

My post's describes these very things.

As you can see, what the fruitful ones "understand" is that believing is the condition by which people are saved.

JLB

Your discussion is on topic because you approach the phrase "less they believe and be saved" to mean that believed=saved. I view that verse as believed might have led to saved as the intent so "believed" is a prerequisite for "saved" but not a guarantee. Unfortunately (for me) the verses to discuss my view are outside of the parable and would quickly lead us down a bunny trail.

Within the Parable of the sower, I would point you to not ignore the word "understand" so prominent in the other gospels and consider if it is possible to "believe" without having a proper "understanding" and thus not have the sort of belief that leads to salvation, but the sort of belief that leads to a dead faith that cannot save. Thus those who "believed" without "understanding" followed a false religion and fell away due to tribulation or worldly temptation. Only the last group "believed" with "understanding" and thus believed in Him (Jesus) as is required for salvation.

 

[chessman]

Can we talk?

Sure.

Does Jesus saying they "believed" the word of God make you a little uncomfortable with this position.

If Jesus had told them that the rocky ground 'believed in Him' or 'believed the Gospel' or better yet 'believed upon the resurrected Christ for the forgiveness of their sins', then yes I think the parable would indicate OSNAS.

the "believed" version needs to be taken into consideration as well.

Sure. And I have. So did Matthew. Matthew clearly understood that hearers need to understand the word about the kingdom for their belief to have any fruitfulness.

The message is both a warning to the listeners that we have a responsibility to HEAR well,

Yes.

and a lesson to the preachers that Jesus was teaching that making the audience hear is not their job.

I would say anybody sharing the word (or for that matter living out the word in our lives), not just a preacher. But yes, people listening (or watching) need to clearly understand what they hear. That's my point and Matthew's too!

Matthew 13:19 (NKJV) When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.​

Sharers have the responsibility to clarify any misunderstandings that hearers my have.

Ultimately though, the hearer(s) need the Holy Spirit's light to understand the Word. We all do.

The more I study this parable, the less I am convinced that it is really about salvation. I think it is about how to listen and how to sow the word.

Correct, IMO. It's about fruit production. It takes the right conditions to produce fruit.

Good cultivated soil, moisture, sunlight and a good understanding of the word.

 

[chessman]

Your discussion is on topic because you approach the phrase "less they believe and be saved" to mean that believed=saved.

That's an excellent point. The conjunction "and" joins two verbs (two different but related actions) together.

I cooked and ate fish last night.
Cooking does not equal eating.

If you don't understand how to cook, you're not eating properly cooked fish.

 

[JLB]

Your discussion is on topic because you approach the phrase "less they believe and be saved" to mean that believed=saved. I view that verse as believed might have led to saved as the intent so "believed" is a prerequisite for "saved" but not a guarantee. Unfortunately (for me) the verses to discuss my view are outside of the parable and would quickly lead us down a bunny trail.

We are discussing this topic, not debating.

You have made it clear that you want to honestly assess these things.

I think that's great.

Can we agree that "believing" is what Jesus says we must do to be saved?

If you believe there is more that a person must do to be saved, then we can discuss that as well.

However for us to come away from this discussion and benefit from each other's insight we should try to find a "basis" from which we agree.

I think "believing" is that basis or starting point from which we can agree.

Believing is where we start, and believing must continue.


JLB

 

[WIP]

That's an excellent point. The conjunction "and" joins two verbs (two different but related actions) together.

I cooked and ate fish last night.
Cooking does not equal eating.

If you don't understand how to cook, you're not eating properly cooked fish.

Could the word "and" also imply further movement or a continuation of the first point. For a not so nice example I might say, I drank wine last night and got drunk on it. The "and" here indicates to what degree I drank wine. Had I not drank wine last night it would not be possible for me to get drunk on wine last night. Well....I suppose there's always injection. Just being facetious.

 

[atpollard]

We are discussing this topic, not debating.
You have made it clear that you want to honestly assess these things.
I think that's great.
Can we agree that "believing" is what Jesus says we must do to be saved?

Yes. Believing is one of the things Jesus lists in various verses as 'if you believe' then you will be saved.
Jim Parker gave a good list:
(1) Believe (Jhn 3:16)
(2) Obey (John 3:36)
(3) Do good (John 5:28-29)
(4) Show mercy (Mat 25:34-36) (Mat 25:41-43) (Mat 25:46)

If you believe there is more that a person must do to be saved, then we can discuss that as well.
However for us to come away from this discussion and benefit from each other's insight we should try to find a "basis" from which we agree.
I think "believing" is that basis or starting point from which we can agree.
Believing is where we start, and believing must continue.

JLB

Yes, I agree. I cannot see any reasonable argument for a follower of Christ, a child of God, a spiritual descendant of Abraham who does not believe in Jesus Christ but will spend eternity in heaven worshiping Him. Which then begs the question in the other topic ... What is SAVED?

To use Jim's list, the seed of the good news falls on the rocky soil and the shallow heart believes that God loves him and he will not burn ... rejoicing at this news. Yet he never learns or desires to obey, do good, or show mercy. Eventually, he learns that being a follower of Christ means that the World will Hate you, so he decides that Christianity isn't for him and moves into something more new-age and 'tolerant' of all faiths. Was he ever really saved? Did he ever really understand? Would this not describe the example of the rocky soil?

 

[chessman]

Could the word "and" also imply further movement or a continuation of the first point.

I think so, yes. That is, within a good grammatically structured sentence. That's why I was careful to say the two verbs have some type of relationship. But drinking wine does not equal drunkenness, none-the-less.

In your example we know from experience that drinking wine in excess can certainly lead to drunkenness. Just as we know from experience that "believing" can certainly lead to salvation. BUT, you better believe the right things. Believing the wrong things is a wide road.

The "and" here indicates to what degree I drank wine.

Yes, unless you understood the wine was non-alcoholic.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

One of the ways I've heard the seed referred to applies to both the believer and the unbeliever. The word of God is the seed, but it's not nessassarily the whole word. King David might have learned about more of God's laws after he tried to bring the Tabernacle to Jerusalem on a donkey's cart. When the attempt cost a man's life David looked into the laws and studied the word to find the correct way God called them to transport the tabernacle. It's evidant from David's life that he was blessed and chosen by God, but not that he understood all of the Word.

Perhaps the same factors can be applied to us as well as nonbelievers. Each part of God's Word can be looked as as a seed to bring us to God and be saved, but for those who already believe each part of God's word can help us follow Him. But for those who reject the Word they hear might accept it latter after understanding another part. Or those who accept Jesus but deny parts of the scripture might still be saved but parts of the scripture (the seed) be taken away from them as if they are the hard path concerning difficult teachings with Satan whispering "surely that's not true," as he did with Eve and tempting her with the fruit.

If this is the case then potentially each teaching from God is a seed for us to accept fully, accept temporarily, or reject altogether. That said, this explaination doesn't completely fit because we know how we are saved is through Jesus, and it's possible for a person to believe in many of the teachings without believing in Jesus to be our salvation. Not a perfect fit but hopefully food for thought.

 

[chessman]

the seed of the good news falls on the rocky soil and the shallow heart

Since we are way down in the weeds here (Pun), a couple of technicalities:

Luke 8:6 (NKJV) 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
Matthew 13:5 (NKJV) 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.​

1. The seed fell on the rock. There is no "rocky soil" spoken of in the parable.
2. The seed wasn't sowed into somewhat less than ideal "soil", it feel on top of rock.

Also, (this is very technical), the translation of the original Greek bears looking at.

Luke 8:12 (NKJV) Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.​

Technically, the original was written in the negative: More like:

Luke 8:12 (NIV) Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.​

Luke 8:12(NASB) Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.​

...

Also, (this is very, very technical), the word translated "for a while" in verse 13 can just as easily be translated as "opportunity".

Luke 8:13 (NKJV) But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while [kahee-ros'] and in time [kahee-ros] of temptation fall away.​

kahee-ros'
Short Definition: fitting season, opportunity, time

For example:

Acts 24:25 (LEB)25 And while he was discussing about righteousness and self control and the judgment that is to come, Felix became afraid and replied, “Go away for the present, and when I have an opportunity [kahee-ros], I will summon you.”​

 

[JLB]

Could the word "and" also imply further movement or a continuation of the first point. For a not so nice example I might say, I drank wine last night and got drunk on it. The "and" here indicates to what degree I drank wine. Had I not drank wine last night it would not be possible for me to get drunk on wine last night. Well....I suppose there's always injection. Just being facetious.

Good point.

JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

The first question is: Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer,?
The second is like it: Are those who believe for a while, then no longer believe still saved.

Scripture says that a believer is only saved by faith! There are those who believe, but do not put their faith in Christ.(John 12:42-44) Satan believes Jesus is the Christ! Faith is the catalyst for regeneration. Hebrews chapter 11 witnesses that faith was the obedience to what they believed and TRUSTED God.

The first two parables of the sower received the Gospel with joy in their heart is only the seat of conciseness or emotion of carnal man, and can be either accepted or rejected. (time will tell and separate the two) also called tares.

 

[JLB]

Scripture says that a believer is only saved by faith! There are those who believe, but do not put their faith in Christ.(John 12:42-44) Satan believes Jesus is the Christ! Faith is the catalyst for regeneration. Hebrews chapter 11 witnesses that faith was the obedience to what they believed and TRUSTED God.

The first two parables of the sower received the Gospel with joy in their heart is only the seat of conciseness or emotion of carnal man, and can be either accepted or rejected. (time will tell and separate the two) also called tares.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

Could you help me to understand your position better, by answering the following question?


Based on Luke 8:11-13.

The first question is: Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer,?




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture says that a believer is only saved by faith! There are those who believe, but do not put their faith in Christ.(John 12:42-44) Satan believes Jesus is the Christ! Faith is the catalyst for regeneration. Hebrews chapter 11 witnesses that faith was the obedience to what they believed and TRUSTED God.

The first two parables of the sower received the Gospel with joy in their heart is only the seat of conciseness or emotion of carnal man, and can be either accepted or rejected. (time will tell and separate the two) also called tares.

DS
I've been reading along and find it pretty incredible that this simple parable is not understood.

You say the first two "parables" --- I'm sure you mean the first two groups of persons to hear the word of the Kingdom. You put both in the same category - this is incorrect.

The first group of persons did not receive it with joy, the second group did.

Mathew 13:19
This first group did not understand the word of the Kingdom. Satan comes along and snatches it from his heart (the part of the body that held understanding).

Mathew 13.20
This second group DID receive the word of the Kingdom WITH JOY. But it is a temporary joy and eventually falls away.

The first group is never saved.
The second group is saved for a while and then is lost again.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The first question is: Is someone who believes for a while then no longer believes, still a believer,?

No, they are not. But you can not use that as a basis for having been saved and losing salvation. I gave you Scripture as an example. Faith alone of the subject incurs trust, and regeneration. All the religious leaders believed He was the Christ, but to no avail or profit.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Mathew 13.20
This second group DID receive the word of the Kingdom WITH JOY. But it is a temporary joy and eventually falls away.

The first group is never saved.
The second group is saved for a while and then is lost again.

I'm sorry you do not understand Salvation is not of man believing, but having faith in what they believe, not an emotional or fleshy response to the word.
I speak by experiencing rebirth. From the time as far back as I remember, I knew of God, even before going to Church. But I was never saved until i reach the age of reasoning. (age 16 for me). As a child, I went to the alter to accept Christ many times. It was an emotional response. But when the Lord called me, He drew me up to the alter and I was baptized
immediately. The Holy Spirit literally cleansed me of the sins I carried. I literally felt as if I would float up as the weight of sin was lifted. As a young adult, I backslid many times and ignored my savior, but He never left me, even when I wandered away. I lost fellowship, but never Salvation! His Spirit (in me) has guaranteed my eternal state as He promised (God can not lie). The first seed sown was received in his heart (John 13:19).The second seed sown was received with joy (John 13:20) Neither one had faith!